On Policies/Terms of Use, Respect, Violations Thereof...

[HystericalParoxysm]

:here: Sims 2 Creator Policies

The Sims 2 creation community is, I believe, rather unique in game modding realms. There is a strange "professionalism" in the way we do things, even though creating is a hobby done for enjoyment. Popular sites are well-designed, easy to navigate, and creators are held to an incredibly high standard of quality. Much of this has been influenced by the way MTS2 is run - I say this not because I'm staff here, but simply because it's the truth. It was one of the first things I noticed when I was getting into the Sims 2 modding community... that MTS2 seemed to, well, have their shit together, and treated creating as something that should not only be done, but done well. This was what got me started posting my work at MTS2 in the first place. This sense of professionalism in a hobby has only increased over the years, creating a high standard for content as well as the way it's presented.

Along with posting content (not just at MTS2, but around the community), each creator or site generally posts a policy or terms of use, dictating exactly what can or cannot be done with their work, and how. This also seems to be a bit of an oddity in the Sims 2 community: in many others, it is common practice to simply release your creations for whatever usage and expect a link and credit in return. Nobody outright says this - it's just the way it's done, so simple a courtesy that it goes without saying.

But in the Sims 2 community it's very different... everyone has their own individual policies which vary wildly from creator to creator - what one can do with someone's meshes, textures, alphas, whether you can post their work with sims or lots, etc., all is extremely individual and everyone's policies are slightly different (http://www.sims2wiki.info/wiki.php?title=Creator_Policies). Some creators won't let you do anything at all with their work without asking specific permission.

What constitutes a "fair" terms of use is very much a matter of opinion. Personally, I believe my terms of use are fair: use my stuff pretty much however you like as long as it isn't for profit - just give me a link and credit if you're distributing any part of it - however, if you want to edit one of my meshes, talk to me first... Unless you're a total beginner who clearly can't do it right and is taking on a bigger project than they are ready for, I'm extremely unlikely to say anything but "Heck yes, go for it!" I also put in my terms of use that I would like to know when you use my stuff, simply because it makes me go, "Eee!" all excited to see a nice recolour of my meshes, and many times I can offer tips or advice on doing something a bit better, and these have always been appreciated by creators editing my work.

Mesh redistribution is one area where creators' policies are often very different: I personally don't mind people putting up my meshes with their recolours elsewhere as it's just easier that way - but I do hope that people doing so actually read my terms of use and include my readme (so people know where to find more recolours) and send me a PM so I can put them on my list of people who have my meshes posted elsewhere... that way if I ever update those meshes, I can send a message to them saying, "Hey, you should update the one posted on your site." To prevent the need for this (and for other reasons, such as maintaining control of their work), many mesh creators don't allow their meshes to be reposted, and ask that you instead link back to them for the mesh.

My policies used to forbid mesh redistribution - which was violated, to my great dismay, and had me seriously considering whether I wanted to continue sharing my work in a community where prominent and popular free creators would violate others' terms of use. After some time, the offending party apologized, and after some consideration on my part, I decided to change my policies to allow for redistribution in a way that I consider fair.

Rarely (but not as rare as you'd think), creators even want credit if you just use their work in pictures, without actually sharing any part of their work for download. I personally think terms of use that require credit for just using things in pictures is going too far and requiring too much of downloaders: if we had to do that for everything used in every pic, it would take forever to make a credits list, and nobody would post pics. I also think that terms requiring permission for simple, routine things like recolouring someone's mesh or using their textures is going too far as well: you likely have a standard answer you'd use anyway, so why not just tell people whether they can or can't and not make them wait for you to check your messages and reply for simple things like that?

I've seen some rather strange policies now and then - like asking that people not use their work in adult stories, pics, or videos... And the much-joked-about (but actually false) "don't use on fat sims" terms which were a misinterpretation of a creator actually saying their meshes didn't include fat morphs.

It is extremely rare for a creator to say "do whatever you want with my stuff, I don't care" but there are some. More often, Sims 2 creators wish to maintain some level of control over their work. Even those with extremely liberal terms have some things that they won't allow, or want you to ask permission first to do.


:here: Violations of Terms of Use

Though it has gone on a bit more "under the radar" for a long time, a new trend seems to have emerged on several sites (which I will not name but you may already know). This trend involves using the works of both free and pay creators in basically whatever way you like: reposting, editing, modifying, recolouring, converting, etc., with or without credit and links given to the original creator. Whether or not this is right to do for pay creations has been debated to death and is not the point of this post, so I will not speak of it further.

However, the new trend of terms of use violations involves much more use of the work of free creators in this way and it is this usage which I am addressing here.

Most commonly, these terms of use violations involve posting meshes with recolours, when the meshes are made by creators who do not wish their meshes reposted in this way and prefer that those who recolour their meshes link back to them for the mesh. While it is easier on people downloading for recolour creators to do it this way, the amount of effort it requires to click a link and download a mesh is very little - two or three extra clicks, at most an extra 15 seconds or so.

That is most common, but there are other violations of free creators' terms of use occurring more and more often now: recolours of free meshes posted with the mesh in violation of the creator's terms, without even a mention of the creator of the mesh, so it looks an awful lot like the recolour-maker made the mesh themselves. Or people use free creators' textures without permission when required, and often without credit or links at all, basically claiming the work as their own. Others age or gender convert meshes (both pay and free) without permission, and sometimes without proper links and credit.

Indeed, there are whole forums and sites that are themed on violating creators' terms of use - they are a free-for-all where anything can and is posted regardless of whether or not it's okay with the original creator.

It's easy to do this sort of thing on the internet, where you have a degree of anonymity and you don't have to look someone in the eye when you're slapping them in the face... Easy to do it to someone you've never met and never will... But artistic karma still applies online, and such actions will come back to bite you in the ass eventually.


:here: Respecting Terms of Use of Free Creators

So why is this a big deal? Why should it matter if the creations were posted freely? If the community accepts it for pay creators' work, why not do the same for free creators, and just have a big free-for-all?

This community, such as it is, is built on the work of free creators. Even if you don't agree with their terms of use, if you like their work enough to want to modify and use it, why not respect them as creators of quality free content and not violate their terms of use?

There is a disturbing sense of entitlement that has permeated the community of late - this feeling of "because it's out there, I should have it, and I should be able to do whatever I want with it." I find this entitlement rather unsettling, and a slap in the face to those who have spent their own time and effort to create something good that is shared with the community for their enjoyment. While one may not agree with a restrictive terms of use, violating it when it comes to free creators strikes me as extremely immature and a very selfish, narrow-minded attitude to take.

Creators, by and large, can be a very dramatic bunch, but it is often at least partially justified. I don't believe the average user truly understands just how much time and effort is put into creating something really good. While one can slap together something that technically works in-game in a short time, creating something that works well, looks good, and really makes you go "Ooooh, that's niiiiice!" takes a heck of a lot of work, patience, and persistence. While it is a labor of love, and done as a hobby, and nobody has forced anyone to sit down and create and share these things... just because someone has shared it and not hoarded it doesn't mean that we then have the right to just use it however we like. If you like someone's work enough to have it your game, and you like it enough that you want to modify or recolour it in some way, have enough respect for the creator and their art to do so in a way that doesn't violate their terms of use.

Some would prefer a free-for-all, a community in which there are no terms of use, and anyone can just do as they like with whatever creations they want.

But take a look at the terms of use of your favourite creators.

Really.

Go do so, right now.

Think of your top 10 favourite creators, those whose stuff fills up your Downloads folder to the brim.

Then go see what their terms say.

I'll be willing to bet that 9 our of 10 (if not 10 out of 10) of those do not have terms that say "use my stuff however you want." Their terms may vary from very open and allowing many usages to very closed, requiring permission or outright forbidding many things - but they still have terms that they want followed.

Now, imagine that every one of those creators had their terms violated time and again by the people who would prefer a free-for-all... To the point where they simply give up creating and, as so many have done already, take their toys and go home. Would you really prefer that every creator that doesn't have a "use however you want" terms of use stop creating? Would you prefer that the creators left are those extremely occasional few that don't mind their creations being used however? Would that really be better?

Some may think creators are being "drama queens" or "whiny bitches" for putting some level of restriction on their work, or for getting upset when their terms of use are violated, but pretty much all creators have some terms of use or policy in place, even if it is fairly loose.

Yes, we are creating for a game, but it is still an act of creation, of taking an idea and forming it into something that did not exist before. The truly good creators are artists. If you wrote a short story, or drew a piece of art... and then someone wanted to translate your story into another language and repost it, or use your art on their website... and then they just went ahead and did so without your permission, and perhaps even without even mentioning your name at all when the original clearly has your details on it... the vast majority of people would be understandably pissed off. All that most creators ask for is a link and credit - some for permission for certain usage - and that's not terribly hard to comply with.

Creators are people too, and they deserve our respect for spending the time and effort to create the things that we all love. If all the really great creators leave because they aren't respected (and again, how many truly great creators have completely open "do whatever you want, I don't care" policies?) then we will be in a sad situation, where the only ones left are the tiny percentage that don't care. While I don't agree with the "I'm taking my toys and going home" attitude (which punishes the vast majority who simply download and enjoy a creator's work in their game), I do understand how one would be upset over something they have put so much time and effort into being misused. I've gotten upset over my own work being misused, even decided to stop creating for a little while - but I love creating and sharing too much to let the actions of a petty few keep me away for too long. I can only hope others are wise enough to do the same, but I know for many, if creating isn't fun anymore and they keep getting slapped in the face too many times, they're simply going to quit.

Creators are not asking for you to kiss their asses, or your firstborn, or to suck their toes: they just want a little respect... for a link and credit when their work is used in accordance with their terms of use, and for you to have the decency to ask permission if there's something else you want to do. If you can't do that, you're just being lazy. And if they did want something outrageous, or had ridiculous terms... it's not like you couldn't just use someone else's work: there's more than enough stuff out there that you could use instead.

It's not too much to ask for everybody to respect creators' policies, and to call them names or otherwise acting childish, as if you are entitled to do whatever you like with their work, just because you can't get exactly what you want, serves to undermine this entire community. A healthy community cannot thrive in an atmosphere of greed, selfishness, and disrespect - one can only prosper in an atmosphere of common courtesy, sharing of information and creations, and respect for other people and their work.


:here: A Proposed Resolution

I believe the solutions to these problems come in several forms:

To downloaders...

Get your content from reputable creators. Use freely available content posted in accordance with the creators' terms in your game and in your pictures and movies. Even if something looks awfully pretty, if you know it's posted on a site or forum that allows terms of use violations, don't download it. There's too much free content posted correctly to fill your game up with stuff that is stolen, or at least partially stolen. While it may be nice to get whatever you want free from all sorts of places, remember that you have artistic karma too, and you can choose who to support and who to pass by. Vote with your clicky-finger, and choose content for your game that comes from the original creator, or is posted in accordance with their terms of use.

To creators...

Don't have an overly-restrictive terms of use that makes people feel like they have to violate it in the first place. While you may feel better having people need to ask you permission to do absolutely anything with your stuff, people will just do as they like anyway, and it'll upset you - maybe to the point that you won't want to create anymore...

Think about what constitutes a fair terms of use for your work from the perspective of others, not just your own. Most of the time, all creators really want is a link and credit if their stuff is modified - you don't need people to ask you permission for that. If you're making hair and you don't want others to age or gender convert it... why not do it yourself from the start? That way you can be sure it's done right, and there's no reason for anyone to do so. Or, if you don't have time to do it for everything, at least make it clear that you would be happy to do so if someone requests it for specific styles, or give permission for edits if someone asks.

Realize that people using your textures, alphas, meshes, etc., is flattering - it means they liked your work enough to tweak it and create something new with it - and write your terms accordingly. Let people take what you've made and build on it. Let people include your work with their sim or lot uploads. Consider letting them include your meshes with their recolours - you can always make a readme and ask them to include that too while they're at it.

If you write your terms so that people feel welcome to use your work from the start, and make it clear that you're happy to have them ask questions and link you to what they've made with your work, they'll have nothing to violate.

To those who would violate terms of use...

There's really no justification for doing this... a sense of "gimme gimme, I'm entitled to this and to do whatever I want with it!" is incredibly short-sighted and selfish when it comes to free creators' work, and is just going to piss off the people who have given you something that you clearly like enough to want to reuse somehow. Just because it's given freely doesn't mean it's yours to do whatever you want with it.

If you don't want to have to ask permission from people to ask to use their textures or to recolour their meshes, or if you want to be able to include meshes every time with your work, it's quite easy to check peoples' terms before you download. Lot builders do this all the time: they only fill their game with things they know can be freely shared, so they don't have to worry about that once they're done creating. You can easily do the same: just check first, and then you can be sure that whatever meshes you're recolouring or whatever textures you're using are fine to be recoloured/included/reused. Not wanting to do this is simple laziness, and is really no excuse... if someone can spend the time to make something nice enough that you want to recolour or modify it and share it freely, you can take the extra 10 or 15 seconds required to go to their terms of use page and see whether it's something you can do without having to ask.

Be willing to ask permission if someone's terms of use don't allow for something - most creators won't say 'no' to you if you ask nicely and explain what you want to do. If you want to see something converted, why not ask the original creator to do so? If you think someone's terms of use are overly-restrictive, why not send them a polite note asking them to change (and perhaps pointing them at this thread) so people can use their work more easily? It's possible people might not realize how restrictive their terms are in comparison to those of others, but you aren't going to force them to change by violating their existing terms - but you might get them to change with a polite note.

And realize that a slap in the face to free creators tends to put them off of creating - if you like their work, respect them enough to use it in accordance with their terms of use, or ask permission if you want to do something special. Anything else is pure and simple selfish laziness.


:here: In Closing

I know The Sims 2 is on its way out, and The Sims 3 will be coming along soon, but I am disturbed by what I see as a lot of negativity in this community. I truly believe that if you want to see something changed, the best way to do it is by setting a good example for it yourself. If you want to see a community with free, open terms of use, create good content and set your terms of use accordingly.

Demonstrate how things should be done by your own deeds and actions rather than hoping to force people to do it through negativity and selfishness. The attitude of entitlement in this community seems to be growing, and I hope that people realize that angering creators is not going to help keep the creation community alive when interest is already dwindling.

While general technical achievements seem to be slowing down in the community, we have only recently seen the release of animation tools and people starting to take advantage of that. It is in everybody's interests to keep the sense of discovery alive, and if free creators are effectively forced out because people do not take 5 seconds to add a credit or a link, then we actually speed up the decline of the creative community - which I don't think anybody wants. There are still discoveries to be made, and the more brilliant minds we force out by demonstrating careless, greedy, lazy attitudes instead of kindness and respect, the less likely we are to see anything new and amazing being made in future. A community is formed by the people in it, and it is up to each individual member of this community - creators and downloaders alike - to treat others with courtesy and to create an atmosphere of learning, sharing information, and encouraging new creators to share their work as they know it will be appreciated and not misused.

If enough people truly desire a community where an open terms of use are the norm, then the only way to truly bring about that change is by doing so with gentleness and wisdom: create your own excellent content and use your fame as a soapbox for what you believe to be the "right way" of doing things, request creators with restrictive terms of use change (but do so in a way that isn't going to anger them), and above all, follow the terms of use of free creators - they deserve your respect.

I'd like to reiterate that this is not about paysites or pay content in any way but is -entirely- about doing this with free content - so if you have a response, please make sure it's not about paysites or pay content in any way. Posts regarding that will be considered off-topic and edited or deleted.

Thanks to anyone who has actually read this long ramble all the way through - I know I can be verbose, but I think this needed saying from someone whose name and creations you know and recognize, posted publicly, in a place where it can be discussed in a (hopefully) rational, calm, and dignified manner.

Whether you agree or disagree, I hope my thoughts on the matter have made you think about what it means to be part of this community, and what it means to respect someone as an artist.

[comedy711]

right on, and thank God somebody took the time to put this! and by the way, what does 'verbose' mean?

[migamoo]

Thank you for this. I pretty much agree with everything you said HP.

[Azaya]

Verbose = wordy, overly so.

[bluetexasbonnie]

Here! Here!

I'm in 99% agreement overall. ... 100% about respect.

You did touch on one pet peeve of mine -- inclusion of Read-me's. Okay, if you name your readme something like ObjectFileName-Readme (a rare, rare thing). But a read-me called Readme is like a thousand others and takes a whole lot of work and subdirectories to keep it associated with the file and find-able.

Thanks for drawing attention to this important issue.

[TenshiiAkari12]

Comedy711, 'verbose' means 'wordy' or 'long-winded', like Azaya stated above. This didn't seem that way to me, as this really addressed some key issues and problems with what's wrong with the community as a whole these days. ;)

There's also a lot of consideration for those points you addressed to each category of people, and excellent suggestions. Thanks for taking the time to share this with us, HP. :D

[fway]

My goodness HP, that must've took alot of tedious work. I think that some creator policies are absurd. I couldn't understand why -free- creators do not want us to use their creations in their pictures and videos (for example.) There should be a solution on this. I was thinking of free sites, setting up some sort of alliance. Say, if ModTheSims2 wanted to become in collaboration with a free site -with an irrational policy- we could then be recognize free sites, while being partners, and maybe we could come up with an agreement because the sites would be connected? I was just thinking of this as an idea, and it's understandable if it's turned down. I mean we shouldn't police other sites -we haven't (as far as I know,) but I mean if we do collabarate with another site- And that's all I can think of now, my brain has almost died. :lol:

Wow, I get into good rambles myself. :)

ETA: I was just thinking about it.

[Pixelhate]

HP, you're so right and your discourse is very mature. Too much maybe. This "new" free-for-all thing is so childish but, I think, is mostly the fact of children. And children are greedy and selfish (no judgment, just a fact). They work on a "I want" basis. Even if they're already filled up.
I admire your attempt to bring some morality but, to be honest, I higly doubt on good results.

[Phaenoh]

I'm with you all the way HP. Nobody wants their toys stolen! :cry:

[Noogie666]

My ten minutes of reading this post is totally worthy. I agree with you 110%. If people will only take an extra few minutes of their time reading creators's policy, this terms of use violation will never happened in the first place. You have spoken from the heart of every creators.

Thank you so very much for posting this a-must-read statement :).

[G.O.C.]

I agree with everything you said HP, after all, you wouldn't steal a painting from an art gallery, paint a few rabbits in the corner, claim it as your own and then give it back to the gallery would you?

[Nymphy]

That is a very fine ramble HP ;) I agree with you completely, and hope that people who read that take it to heart the proposed resolutions section. Very nicely said and thank you for spending time writing that :)

[Kathryn182]

I'm completely agree with you, HP. People can't just edit something slightly and claim it as theirs. Using G.O.C's theory, it's like changing a word in a book and saying it's now yours and you alone created it.
Creator's policies should be respected, they've taken time out to create, tweak and perfect something and then upload it. The least other people can do is repect their wishes about their work.
Thanks for taking the time to type all that out, HP xD

[lauralaima]

Everything you said should be writen in all the websites shouldn't it? Last week I was surfing the internet when I found a 'pirate web' where you could download a lot of pay stuff... and I *honestly* didn't give it a try... I don't want to feel like I'm stealing something, though having to pay for a game modification is *at least for me* riddiculous.

I came up with 2 more solutions for downloaders (specially lot builders like me):
- download Delphy's Download Organiser, so you can easily identify the content you can or you can't include in your lots
- format your downloads folder (yes I know it's... I don't know the word for it in english, I mean, you may be unwilling to do this but... you should really, I'm telling you), and redownload everything you want (and maybe you'll be wanting less items than before bacause you've noticed that you actually don't use them) BUT clasify ALL the custom content in subfolders. That's what I did when I changed my computer: I have my downloads folder and then I have an MTS2 folder, an XMSims2, a Rosesims2... and inside these folders I've got other subfolders like ''female hair'' or ''the dark project set''.
This way you can find anything you want easily, and this comes handy when you want to recolor something for instance...

And to the creators whose policies have been violated, all I can say is... don't give up creating!, you've discovered something you like and you do PERFECTLY WELL, and these selfish and short-minded people who can't comply with your reasonable terms of use simply don't deserve your frustration, do they?

I'm becoming into HP writing all this... I hope it helps ;)

[moune999]

Very well said, HP! There isn't very much in there that I don't agree completely with. :up:

I don't know if it's a good idea, but I will still suggest that we take the opportunity - here or maybe in another thread - to discuss what can be seen as reasonable conditions to put on your creations. Because I think one reason for the possible increase in violations is that there definitely are some very restrictive TOS's out there. And they really don't do anything for the creativity of the community either.

(I remember when I first started out recoloring and had to ask permission to recolor several simple object meshes. I did so, but quite a few creators never answered back ... Which actually provoked me to go and download MilkShape, so ... huh )

It's not that I think we should force all creators to use the same conditions, but maybe by discussing it here we can raise some awareness and change some or the more restrictive attitudes. :)

[putowtin]

hear hear! Well spoken! I tip my hat to you!

[Sophie-David]

Thank you HP, that was a well written and complete article. I also happen to agree with you on all points.

[sysa]

Very nicely put, and it's nice to see that you've thought to include both sides of the equation. I have some thoughts though that I would like to add.

On readme files: of course it depends on how one organises one's Downloads folder, but for those that don't, or do it by site/creator, a simple "creator's-or-site's-name.txt" should do the trick. Thankfully, many creators actually use this format :)

On policy violations: while I agree that it is a childish thing to think that one is entitled to do whatever one pleases with freely posted creations, I also suspect that at least in part of the cases the attitude is more naive than defiant or possessive. Taking myself as an example, what I mean is this: let's say, I want to create a specific fantasy sim for my own game. I download skins, eyes, clothes, etc, but the eye needs to be very specific, and I don't find a perfect fit anywhere. There is an alien eye, though, that could be the perfect base - only the creator is not allowing modifications of their textures. Well, shouldn't be a problem, says I, I'm not uploading it anywhere, am I? It's only for my own use, I'll go ahead and no one will be the wiser. Or, even more likely, since I'm not planning to upload either the sim or the eyeset, I don't even bother to read the policy, since I assume what I do on my own hard drive is nobody else's business. So I go on, modify the eye texture, make it fit for my sim, and in the end I have my precious little sim look just like I imagined he would. But now it occurs to me that maybe others would appreciate his looks as well, and with all the work I've put into creating him, it seems only right that I share him with others. Which I do, consequently violating the original creator's policy. I never meant to do harm or be disrespectful, I was only naive and ignorant.

Of course ignorance of the law does not make one exempt from obeying it, but what I think people like this need is information, and a polite reminder that they are in the wrong. It may well be that *I* am naive, but I really think that many would jump and say "oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realise", and would be polite and respectful from that point on, or would at least choose their bases more carefully. So I guess what I'm trying to say is, give even policy offenders the benefit of the doubt, and try to remind them politely that they are doing wrong, they might change their ways, and that way everyone can benefit.

[sim-potato-711]

so true. the whole modding-sims-2 system has always been upheld by a common unmentioned respect to other creators, sometimes because we just want to share other people's creations through our own. i would never openly break someone's terms of use, because it's just rude and if you do, you don't deserve whatever you took from the creator and abused.

the only thing i find frustrating is when a creation is left unmarked in any way by a creator, so you try to link to it but Delphy'sDownloadOrganiser or SimPE can only tell you that the description is "ab59349hff94j9jgk94". I have a hard time removing that object from an uploaded lot or whatever just because the creator wasn't responsible enough to mark their work.

But there is still absolutely no excuse for at the very least linking to a creator if you know who it is. I totally agree with the post, because it's just a common courtesy that's developed in this network of sites, like you said. If TS3 doesn't allow modding, an entire ecosystem will collapse!

[jmtmom]

Well-said HP. I think what you're saying is something we can all live with. I personally think the entire community would be much better off if everyone lightened up and said do whatever you like except no paysites and give credit and a link, but I appreciate that we're a long way from that at this point. I personally do what creators ask, not because I think they're right, but I don't want to cause bad feelings over it. If it's too annoying, then I just don't use their stuff. The truth is, they're trying to control the uncontrolable and limiting the popularity of their creations.

No content should be exclusive. I'm not just talking about paysites, also the "supah sekkrit" forums or such nonsense. Cooperation and synthesis is a better model then exclusivity. Where would we be if Ren of Sim-Cribbing didn't allow people to freely use her textures? Or if Warlokk decided everyone had to jump through hoops to modify his meshes?

[kellyw54]

I agree with you 100%. It's rather annoying when you download something and realize whomever posted it had no right to post it in the first place. I do wish that some creators would ease up on their posting requirements (ie credit for pics I dont upload pics because I dont want to have to go list all of the links to the creators) But I think that alot of the creators have put their time and effort into this "hobby" and we as downloaders should respect their wishes when it comes to redistributing their creations. Just like when buying art, you'd never try to say I made any of the paintings in my home so why would you claim someones art work made for the sims as your own?
"the only thing i find frustrating is when a creation is left unmarked in any way by a creator, so you try to link to it but Delphy'sDownloadOrganiser or SimPE can only tell you that the description is "ab59349hff94j9jgk94". I have a hard time removing that object from an uploaded lot or whatever just because the creator wasn't responsible enough to mark their work"
And I whole heartedly agree with that one, it makes it very difficult to give credit where credit is do if you can't figure out who the heck made the part in the first place. That is very annoying maybe some creators who know they are guilty of this could fix it hint hint :)

[comedy711]

hp is obviously a mature person. they want whats best for the community overall. this has been a long time coming, and the whole 'free for all' movement is a bunch of teenagers, who just wanna do what we wanna do. and it's also sort of fun to cause great debates like this.

btw, i regularly see other creators creations reposted on other sites, especialy the exchange. i havent seen any of mine elxwhere yet though...

[Poison29]

haha kelly i like that insert a$$ comment here hehehe.XD

[Kadath]

Well, in the end, it could be said that HP post just states common sense, though explained in a wonderful logorrhoic, argumented, well explained manner. Common sense is, however, such a rare commodity in many people's heads that there will always be the need of someone able to explain it in exhaustive ways, without any danger of being perceived as "pedant".

Personally, of course, i agree with just about every word here, but i have to say there's something about this modding community that feels quite strange to me when it comes to redistribution policies, and thus i'm here replying.
English isn't my native language, so, sorry for any linguistic aberration that could (and will, that's for sure, if it didn't already) slip through my own logorrhea :P


I'm back playing the sims after a long time, so obviously the first days were totally dedicated to find and download those mods i remembered from my previous times, and to look at everything new made since then.
I usually only play games that allows much modification capabilities, and often i too am a modder, though i rarely share much of my work 'cause i'm not very constant with a single game/modding community, and not very constant in playing at all. Thus meaning, it would be just stupid to share a full mod or one in development - though already playable - if i could not be there to support the downloaders with eventual issues after some months. And an issue is always bound to happen, if it's not a fault in your own work, it will be one day a mod by somebody else that conflicts with yours.

Modding, in huge modding communities (so modding for famous games with many players and many modders), is an hobby that requires added dedication and seriousness. It's not that you can't do things just for fun, your fun, it's that you have to keep in mind the needs of the common players submerged by thousands of different (or not-so-different) mods. And what is just obvious and easy for you modder, may not be so for the "casual" player.
That's why, on the conceptual point at least, it's more than justified when a creator ask a proper respect of his work, his dedication and his seriousness.
The way the modding in the Sims works - both community common rules and the game mechanics themselves - however, often take things to a paradoxical extent.

Let's say this month i decide to take Civ IV back from the shelf and play it : right after installing it i'll be on Civ Fanatics, choosing one of the major modifications, a bunch of minor ones, and it's done, i'm ready to rock. The same would go if I'm gonna play Galciv, or even a better example, Oblivion : i will be browsing for quite some time the endless Bethesda forums, where i can find almost everything ever made, and maybe that bunch of external sites i know for making good themed projects, advertised on the forums. Sometimes it's something that will take time for the huge amount of choice, but more or less it's all quite ordered and simple : what i need is there, i just have to click it and follow the instructions.

It's not the same for The Sims. Though MTS2 is by far the standard "landmark" for sims modding, still it's quite the tip of the iceberg, the start point rather than the end point. And often many of the things shared will take you all around the net : something that sometimes is just a matter of added time (sometimes the 15 seconds HP mentioned, other times i have to say way, way more), some other times it can be an odyssey. Why? Two main reasons.

1- The Sims is a particular game. It's not an RPG, or a strategy game, where more or less there's a definite category of players with some strong points in common. It's far more like playing with dolls : i have fun killing my sims in the most imaginative ways, even if, maybe, it took me eons to make them look good, or to make that lot just like that Japanese temple i saw in that other show. Other people have fun in dressing their dolls how they dream of, creating stories or settings, and playing very carefully through 'em, with the best content they can find. It's a game played by an incredibly wide spectrum of people; and some of these people are... ready to pay for it. Nothing wrong here, uh, don't misunderstand me, everyone has the right to spend his money how they like, and we all spent our money to actually buy the game itself.
The difference is, maybe, how they are easily prone to spend them. Maybe also because while for many other games there's a strong predominance of younger players, the sims is something widely played also by older people.
I mean, custom, fanmade pay content for oblivion will never have much success, just 'cause the 99% of the gamers community would laugh hard, really hard, at those who would try to sell it. Actually, more than laughs, in many modding communities, the proliferating of unofficial paysites would raise a real storm. It's just not an habit for those kind of gaming communities, it's so strange there that would be seen by most people as a "sick" behaviour.

With the Sims, though, we see many paysites, and as there are many paysites, there are many more indipendent free sites, often with little to no connection, or cooperation, with other sites. And even when there is some cooperation, every site's links page will knock you down with dozens of banners. Where the hell to start? I need my pills, where the heck are my pills? :lol:
All in all, there's a much more developed feeling of "owning" of everyone work. Who knows why, maybe, a subliminal thought "jeez, if there's so much people that ask money for their mods, why shouldn't i at least require a strict policy on mine? Why shouldn't they at least come to my site, my home, to download? And my work is even better done than some of those paycraps!".

So, from the basic issue of a chaotic offer all over the net, we come to another, maybe even worse issue, and that's the second reason for the mentioned "odyssey" :

2- "Hey, today i want to download a couple more sims, let's look over at MTS2 if i find something that suits my tastes! Yeah, the site's painfully slow, but that's only because it's a great site with tons of users and resources! Uhhh look at that picture! Niiiice! Let's see, let's see, yummy!"
"Hi, custom content made by me : the sim and the screenshot. Custom content included : the sim. Custom content not included... [insert here an endless list]. You can find that here and that there, good downloading!"
"... You know where you should stick your download up, missy? What will you upload tomorrow, a sheet of paper with a list of how many ticks of nose ugliness we should raise from a basic face shape to get your sim? Oh well, patience, who cares, the sim look good, let's follow those links, it's not her fault..."

Nor is "her" fault when, maybe, the upload is a bit old, and, maybe, the link works no more because the site it was referring to has changed, and good luck if you're searching for an old hair mesh on peggysims having to browse them one by one. Nor is "her" fault if the referring site does not allow a direct link to a specific page and you have to do so even if the upload have no "old" alibi.
Over all, if you are patient, painfully patient, one way or another you'll end up with all the "pieces" you need, unless the upload is really old and pointing to too many dead spots. But if often this hassle is just that famous 15 seconds for a mesh, other times downloading a single sim, or lot, just how they look in the beautiful screenshot, will take you tens of minutes. I remember a beautiful sim i downloaded some days ago that, in total, took me more than 1 hour, spent jumping from one site to another, chasing the various pieces.

Really, who's the culprit here, the uploader? Hell, no, it's just someone zealous (maybe a bit overzealous eh...) who followed the authors policies, how can i blame him - apart from the initial rant on the spot i mean :P.
Then the culprit are those authors, who forbid the upload of their meshes or make ups or who-cares-what in other people's upload? One by one, no, they just stated a policy that, taken by itself, isn't that absurd. Problem is, each one policies tend to sum up.
The downloader pays the final toll. And sometimes the bill is quite pricy.


Unfortunately, as i stated, part of the problem is in the game mechanics : in many other games there's no choice, if I use something yours in a mod, there's no way to build up a "modular" download, i just have to use it. If oblivion worked like that, to stick within the examples made, probably we would see some very similar issues in that community too.
Still the result is other chaos that sums up, bringing up sometimes a result that can easily frustrate the downloader, the gamer, and i bet, even the modder, who needs to keep a painful, boundless track of everything used from everywhere. I work in publishing and web designing, i'm payed for it, and i can assure you that the common conduct for using external content for a project is often way less fussy than what i see in the sims modding community.

HP said, and she's not wrong, that often this way a releaser can keep track of other mods that use his work, and then - to the advantage of us all - help those "third party" mods to be up to date. Shame is, sometimes this habit can produce the opposite result, as i described. Uploads can "die" quite quickly of old age if there was much content not included and only referred to.

Modders elsewhere, to keep each other works up to date, just stay in contact, and follow each other developments. That is feasible 'cause often there is a single spot, site or forum or anything else, where every modder shows his work. Maybe it will share it elsewhere, but at least it's shown there. MTS2 is the nearest thing to that concept we have in the sims, but still - and definitely it's not its fault - is far from effectively being the same thing.

There's no easy, nor effective, solution here, 'cause there's nothing specific at fault. It's the result of many little things that, looked at separately, seems harmless. A good starting point would be, however, from the creators. When you decide your own policy of redistribution, please, don't use "your" common sense : think of a broader, larger common sense. A common sense that can be applied farther from your own little creator site, page, panel, pride, nose (however long could it be :P ).

Once someone asks you politely a resource, just let him upload it - with the doverous credits - with his work. If you don't do so 'cause you plan to update that resource in the future and that would make things easier, then that's a justified reason, but let's tell the truth : this is quite rarely the real reason, it seems often more like an excuse. If you don't do that because you like to have people come to your site, so you can show them your html skills, or so the counters on your pay per visit banners will go up, then, you're really a poor thing. I'm not gonna say you can't, it's not my business, but you can't say either that i shouldn't pity you : it's not your business.

After all, come on, there's no way to "protect" our work. Bill Gates still have to find a way to prevent people from using pirated copies of his crappy OS, do you think you could succeed where such an evil genius, globally - and rightfully - feared and hated, couldn't? :jest:


(Edited for : a couple of grammar horrors, and an "he" instead of "she"... :p )

[jasonduskey]

What comedy711 said. I think a certain respect exists within the community, but nothing torques me off more than seeing a creation that I know was a MTS2 original reposted on the exchange by some twelve-year-old. And then the kid has the gall to say "I worked sooo hard on this lot/sim/object".
And while I agree a certain level of professionalism should be maintained among free creators, I have no sympathy at all for pay/donation creators. You're breaking the law. There's no 2 ways about it. While I don't "steal" downloads myself or advocate it, I think the pirate sites are heroic in what they do. And I have to laugh when the paysites try to take legal action. This is like calling the cops and telling them someone stole your weed. Besides, paysites steal free creators' meshes and textures all the time.

[jmtmom]

Brilliantly put kadeth. If creators would just allow the posting of their meshes with links, the whole problem is solved. Then instead of a frustrating experience for the downloader, it's a chance to find new content. That hour is spent browsing different sites instead of hunting for meshes.

I wonder how many people are just being rude and ignoring policies, or maybe they're just fed up with the hoops they're expected to jump through.

[KatanaKutie]

I totally agree. I'm in awe of some of the things I've seen on this site and I wouldn't want any of the artists to "take their toys and go home." I think it's generally understood in the civilized world that an artist has the right to dictate distribution policy on their creations. We may not always agree with that policy (music industry) but until policy changes that's just the way it is. I've thought about creating some things myself but I'm either to busy or to lazy so I'm very grateful to everyone who takes the time to make such great stuff. And remember everyone: donate to the site. Lets keep this place going.

[Alisar]

I don't know what's happening in the community, here at MTS2 or outside. What is clear is that's something 'heavy', as a retirement before and your words now let me think. I have to say it is sad that also a game -this is sims2, not politcs or hunger in the world - can divide and make people dispute this way! What is true is that we are not children and the "I want it - I take it" is/should not be in our moods. As an uploader I am with you HP, you are not verbose - just say what you and many think is right to do with CC.; I must add we are lucky that you moderators check because it may happen something slips (I happened :rolleyes: for distraction :p !) As a downloader I also understand Kadath, and that's why I avoid CC not included and, if this is not possible, external links for CC not included - I hate going from page to page to search meshes, this really bore me because I lose so much of my little time that I often give up.
the nameobject readme can be a solution. but better would be free meshes upload with link back. best that nobody claim as his/hers other hard work - I happen to be a victim in 'RL' and it was really upsetting, anybody who acts like this is really 'poor-minded' :!:

[HilaryAnn27]

I would like to add my thoughts on what HP has provided to us members. Instead of breaking it down into free vs pay again, wouldn't it be better to just say that all creators rights and TOU's should be respected? A creator is, first and foremost, a person and deserves the same courtesy that is afforded to any person. Courtesy dictates that, no matter what the purpose was, theft of their creation is never right.

Creators are basically the same. The majority of them create new meshes or do fabulous recolors because they love the game and they love creating. Some do put extensive TOU's on their items, but that is their right as a creator. For the record, I've seen paysite creators with very liberal TOU's and freesite creators with very extensive and tight ones.

It is not right, or in the community spirit, to say to respect one group's TOU's (freesites) and block another group's (paysites). All creator TOU's should be respected, and nothing should be pirated. After all, despite what the movies say, pirates are not good people. There's a reason that pirates were hung.

It does all come down to the "gimme, gimme" attitude so prevalent in the Sims community. There's a sense that one is entitled to any and all creations, and that is simply not so. No one is entitled to anything. If you want a creator's objects, obtain them legally and respect their TOU's. It is as simple as that.

[HystericalParoxysm]

I didn't say anything about paysites because I am not turning this into another paysite debate. There are whole sites based on that stuff where you can debate that to your heart's content.

Please do not turn this thread into another paysite debate. I advocate the use of all free content as does this site in general and I and most of the staff no longer use pay content in our games. We don't allow anything for upload that violates a creator's terms of use or uses their work without permission and credit, pay or free. It is because of not wanting this to turn into a pay vs. free thing that I didn't go into what I thought about it for paysites and I don't want it to get into that now. And I still don't. So please leave that out of this. I should hope that the overall message of respect for what people have made and finding something else if you don't want to use something with policies you don't like was obvious - you'll note that not once did I say 'but you can do what you want with paysite stuff' so please don't make it out like I was doing that, and let's save the debates on pay stuff for more appropriate forums.

[Saraswati5]

HP I loved this article.. We've been struggling with this topic on another forum. Because even though I have a reasonably fast PC if I have too much stuff the pc slows down, I tend to stick to stuff that has "link and credit" terms in my game and that sticks to specific themes, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

I do think that free creators with less open terms can sometimes do themselves a disservice, because the creators who have sensible terms tend to be more popular than the creators who don't want their meshes going anywhere.

[rosaline_10]

thank you HP for bring up this topic.
I myself have a small free sims 2 custom content website, and I try and make my terms of use fair.
I have not had anyone dis-respect my terms yet.and I think thats because my terms are fair.
I know also as downloader I hate having to search high and low for mesh's or links to content, that just takes all the fun out of it. that is why all my stuff is share friendly. :)

[summersong86]

I found your post interesting HP, not just for your take on this, but it finally explained to me why mesh makers are so particular about redistribution of their meshes. I didn't realize that meshers have to sometimes update their meshes to keep up with the EP's and therefore would want to control mesh distribution for that reason. Oh duh! Makes me understand that policy now.

Also, it answers the question of why I have of late found object recolors that included PAY meshes with them. I had thought that maybe Peggy or Rose and so forth had decided to release certain of their pay meshes. Yes, naive, but then again I don't spend a whole lot of time on the forums other than to download so most of the strife I heard about goes over my head. I am only recently coming to understand there had been some huge blowout in the Sims community during the time I left to take care of my parents' cancer ordeal. So anyway, now I know that these meshes were NOT released by their creators and that people are just brazenly offering them because they feel the should be able to. I admit, I'm taken aback, I'm rather used to seeing terms of use strictly abided by on most websites, due to peer pressure if for no other reason. Wow, quite astonishing.

Thanks for bringing this all to light, HP. Now I will go and recheck my downloads to ensure I don't use these questionable contents in screen shots or future uploads of my own work.

As for the pirate type sites. I patronized one after being directed to it for a mesh for a recolor from a site I have always respected. At first I think the pirates had a noble idea, of sorts--I mean there are a couple of "artists" I can think of who, after I have examined the pirated version of their work, should be flogged for charging people for slapdash corner cutting crap. However, somehow I accidently ran across an essay by Numenor, explaining how the pirates were now hurting everyone attempting to control access to their work. Like redistributing what was meant as private gifts for a limited distribution where no money changes hands. The sense of entitlement has clearly gotten out of hand.

HP, thanks for your very eloquent and thoughtful post. It is very good timing and helps people like me who want to do the right thing but have been very confused about what we encounter as we go about just trying to innocently spruce up our game.

Personally, back when I had custom content posted, my policy was one of "Do whatever you want". I had that not because I felt my work was substandard, but because it's just such a sanity saver to not care too much about what someone is going to do with my work. I mean, if I can't walk up and b*tchslap them, may as well just let it go. I mean, that's me, I understand being that laid back isn't going to work for everyone.

One thing--addressing a comment in a different post-- in defense of the "kids" in the Sims community--they're not all selfish and id-driven little thieves. And even the ones who are like that now... usually do eventually grow up and get with the program. Some of those kids out there have been so incredibly helpful, supportive and free with their natural talent and limited time and youthful creativity. Frankly I have seen more brazen thievery and overblown boasting from the adults--adults who sometimes charge for their work, no less.

[J. M. Pescado]

It is not right, or in the community spirit, to say to respect one group's TOU's (freesites) and block another group's (paysites). All creator TOU's should be respected, and nothing should be pirated. After all, despite what the movies say, pirates are not good people. There's a reason that pirates were hung.The entire "TOU" nonsense is counter to the community spirit, period. This sort of nonsense occurs only HERE, in the SIMS. WHY? Because we've allowed divas and attention whores to run the show to the point where people now think this sort of behavior is NORMAL. If anything, this needs to be firmly and forcefully stomped on without mercy. This sort of nonsense is an annoyance to everyone and a drain on bandwidth and system resources for everyone involved. What's more, it feeds on itself, and is unenforceable anyway. Why bother? I don't even *HAVE* a "TOU", because I think that they're ridiculous and stupid. Seriously, when does it end? It is one thing to request that people not plagiarize, but in the end, plagiarism isn't even a crime. Don't you people have anything better to do than go stalking the Internet looking for someone who MIGHT be hosting your stuff? It's not like most of you ever bother to update or FIX your buggy, badly-made, bloatware-infested crap, anyway. Every single one of these divas thinks their shit is gold, but I'm telling you: I've looked at their stuff. Every single thing I've seen is a bloated, crap-infested mess that has to be weeded out of all the extraneous garbage infesting it before it is even fit for use. As an average, I can reduce a piece of CC to half its size and IT WILL FUNCTION BETTER, too. Most of it is even broken. NEWSFLASH: Your shit stinks like everyone else's. Get over yourself.

I found your post interesting HP, not just for your take on this, but it finally explained to me why mesh makers are so particular about redistribution of their meshes. I didn't realize that meshers have to sometimes update their meshes to keep up with the EP's and therefore would want to control mesh distribution for that reason. Oh duh! Makes me understand that policy now.Bolognium. That happens in maybe one or two isolated cases. The bulk of 99% of the people who make stuff NEVER BOTHER TO UPDATE ANYTHING. EVER. Not even when obvious bugs are reported. But you bet they'd throw an outright shitfit if someone fixed it FOR them: "OH NOES YOU FIXED MY BUGGY MISCATEGORIZED NON-SHOED CRAP! YOU ARE SO EVILS". And so on, and soforth. They can take their whiny, meaningless TOSen and shove 'em up their asses, I say. It'll go well with the stick that's already there.

[MaryLou]

Well...... there is something that seems some users have forgotten: support for our creation, compatibility with future EPs, update the code, fix bug, ecc ecc ecc

First: HP, thank you for the great explanation. Of course, I'm totally agree with you.

In my opinion, my policy is enough free.....
What users, like kadeth and rosaline for example and others, have forgotten is that NOT ALL the cc can be re-posted anywhere without any future risk for the downloaders.
I konw that is frustrating go from link to link to get an items and sometimes is very difficult find the right mesh, or the link doesn't work, ecc.
About bodymeshing, perhaps, the downloaders will never have problem with the mesh.
But the are many objects ( mods, hacks, global or not) that will need to be update for the new EPs by the creator.

So when I said : Do not clone, not repost anywhere but provide a link to the original thread, it's only to give the best support to all the users: in my opinion this is a serious way not a limited way. Only on my thread there will be update for fixing bug or compliance with new EPs.
Sometimes I have found my works ( or our: mine and Numenor's) reposted without any hint for their use, without any warning about compatibility, but instead with WRONG info about their usage in the game...... and I don't want anyone can have problem with my works without my assistance, even if who repost my works make it with own risk!
It's true that the downloaders should know what they download and what they make, but we know very well that this is not always.
About the lots, is the same thing: if you include hacks, mode or other that will need to be update the downloaders can't get the new versions and shold have some problems.
This game, as kadeth said, is different then others.... it's always in expansion and a creator should be update his works. I can see on the web really many works, also pay, that now are more limited or without compatibility with some new functions or, even worse, make the game crashing. So, in my opinion, tell "make what ever you want" is not the right way because more people, that will repost your work, can't understand and explain your work, and can't give support for future risks: this is why I choose mine policy like it is, not a criticism for who makes different choice of course.

I know very well that there are many people that don't respect the terms of creators, we can contact and ask to respect (lucky there are more downloaders that tell you when they found some violation of you police), but we can't stop them to continue. I think that should be the downloders to understand the difference between correct or not people and download only from correct sites/people.

About paysite, in my opinion...... no comment: they, simply, shouldn't exist; but at the same time also the pirate sites shouldn't exist: is not this the right way; again, should be the downloaders to understand they don't download from pay site to stop them; but if the people want to pay (noone is force to pay: it's a own free choice) for items that often are ugly (more peggy's free mesh are better then her pay :lol: )...... is not my problem, we can't stop them to pay for items....... we can suggest, but not stop.

Sorry for my English, is not my native language so be patient, please :rolleyes:

[Kadath]

Mary Lou, what you say has a lot of sense, and as i stated before in my post, yes, IF there's a real potential need of more or less constant updating of the resource, the "modular" release of a mod will without doubt be more helpful than not. I'm not contesting this point, what i'm contesting is : what really needs frequent updates, and what not? I don't even want to go down too much on the more provocative question of who, in the end, really updates their old CC instead of making totally new uploads or just forgetting everything and bye bye.

Then what really needs updates? Hacks, active objects, yeah, they do need it. Maxis itself often DON'T update their custom objects, but that's not the point. But will a body mesh, a recolor, an hair mesh, texture, a make up, an eye colour, a friggin pendant ever need an update? Unless there was some bug - and bugs will usually be discovered few days after the first release - it's very unlikely.
And, again, more often than not, when an author with his pretty website updates one of his old goodies, more than "updating" anything does publish a "new version", usually to be found on a new page, new link, under a different name. That totally defeat the suggested usefulness of uploads threads with links to the various third party resources : unless the uploader is still there to update his thread, you'll need to search, or even worse you'll never know that there's a new version of that mesh around.
But then, if the uploader is there to update a link, wouldn't he be there, in an easier fashion for everyone, to just update his rar removing the old CC and putting in the new mesh, or what-it-was?

These "crossed downloads", in the end, still work only if both the authors of the single resources and the author of the derivate uploads are still active in the community and follow each other developings. The exact same basic need of a way simpler habit of personally updating the .rar you're sharing with everything needed when needed.

What J.M. Pescado initially said, although in a really grouchy way :p, strikes to the point. This common conduct is definitely not normal. Sometimes, maybe, there's a reason that makes sense, but much more often that not, it's not really justified, and excuses apart seems just an habit of bathe in your selfpride, flattering yourself forcing people to spam your name (not even your name, your friggin nickname, damn! :p ) and/or your site, to glorify now and forever your sublime creative talent.
For a mesh. Or a make up. For a game. Of dolls.
Come on... :P


P.S. Don't worry Mary, between me and you we are nicely killing the english language, but... non è colpa nostra se a scuola ce lo insegnano male in Italia :P

[simsartthat]

Wow. Ok then. I'm not addressing every single point, because it would just be another dramatic rehash. Been there, done that. Ad nauseum.

This thread really isn’t about all artists in this community and the respect they deserve, it’s about the philosophy/politics of MTS2 admin/staff and was certainly brought up for a reason. I’m interested in seeing how MTS2's policy may change as a result of HP’s post, because this surely opens that door. The initial post is more a call to arms for those who support this statement in it's (literal and figurative) entirety to contact creators with more restrictive policies and ask them to loosen up...“in a way that isn’t going to anger them” of course. Noted. We'll see what happens with that.

On a broader note, I appreciate clear policies and look forward to further clarification here. It's common sense for sites that offer downloads based on other people's work to have a clear policy for uploading, whether that policy is “anything goes because paysites are breaking the law!” or “please read this encyclopedia of legal terminology before you offer your t-shirt recolor for upload on our FREE site” or something in between.

Since I cannot state my opinion on either of these extremes, I’ll simply say this: sites that want the respect of all creators and artists should promote the respect of all creators and artists.

To exclude an entire category of creators, through the precise wording of the initial statement, means this is not yet another community-wide drama, merely MTS2 testing the waters for a policy change. I'm looking forward to seeing the result.

[Nouk]

Well, it's not really a policy change. MTS2 doesn't allow uploads that result in the breaking of TOS of anyone, pay or free. I think that's pretty neutral and good.
However they don't intend to cater to dramatic behaviour, so if you go GRRROWL THEY TOOK ME STUFF I'M DELETING EVERYTHING AND LEAVING!!!EINZ AND IT'S ALL THIS PERSONS FAULT and post it in every thread you uploaded, deleting the download, you will get an earfull and a nice 'shut up and goodbye, if you treat people this way they don't need you'. Wich is good too. And yes, I've seen creators do this :S

[jmtmom]

Sometimes, I think that creators don't realize they're making things difficult until it's pointed out to them. I also think that if everyone was careful to credit where they got things from, it wouldn't be a big deal. I take apart a lot of other creations to see how it's done and I've noticed that some of the biggest drama divas, freely borrow from others or maxis and just don't credit them. Then they get all snippy and possessive if someone does what they already did.

[summersong86]

Well there are two sides to every story and I see merit in both opposing points of view. I myself, when I get back to posting my newest stuff, will remain "open" with a do whatever you want policy. I have a point of view on it that the kind of work I do is merely editing copyrighted photos I take off the web. Granted I put in so much reprocessing that the end product bears no resemblance to the incredibly crappy web photos I work with, but still, I'm building off of work that either Maxis or some photographer did, as well as all the people who made it possible to customize at all. So why on earth should I fuss if somebody takes the nose off one of my skins and makes a new skin with it. It seems petty and self -defeating to me. I mean, isn't it gratifiying to see your work used and built upon? I think it is, and since SummerSong is not my name even remotely, well LOL--why do I care if I see it "up in lights" on the internet. That's MY opinion of MY work. That is all I am responsible for, my own opinion, my own work. For me to dictate how another person should feel about their work is rather presumptuous. I'm not them. I don't know how they were raised, what they go through in a typical day to shape their feelings. So live and let live. I get as frustrated as anybody else at restrictive TOU's...but that just moves me to be more creative on my own and learn new techniques to achieve the results I like if I want to share what I make.

If the community is to function at all, we have to respect each other's diverse opinions and accomodate them as best we can. If we are not willing to honor someone's terms of use, no matter how ridiculous or egotistical it may seem, then don't use that person's work and instead use the work of somebody who sees things the way you do.

There are some "divas" out there who sorry to say, make some stuff I really like, LOL! So, I will use their things in my game according to their wishes, to placate/respect their feelings and encourage them to continue their work in their own eccentric way, but I wouldn't touch it when trying to make my own project.

As for piracy, I'm still trying to wrap my mind around that one. People, myself included, have been "hurt" by paying for items (especially for Sims1) that were just awful. Since the paysites are violating EA EULA or whatever it is called, then I do commend SOME of the pirates for trying to hold the pay sites accountable for their actions. However, as with all good ideas or honorable intentions, things will tend to be taken to extreme before things settle to the middle where they should be. Everyone really needs to fully think out if they want to be part of such a controversial and potentially damaging "movement".

I hope I make sense. My daughter is watching Miss Spider's Sunny Patch friends and making nonstop commentary so my brain is kinda spinning as I type this.

[Saraswati5]

The creators who have weird policies need to be aware of the ulcers they cause.. people have limited time to Sim and trying to work out what someone wants sometimes will cause people to give up and not revisit your page. It would be a whole lot easier if people
1) remembered to post their terms somewhere visible
2) created a realistic set of terms that don't put too much pressure on your downloaders and
3) provided a means of contacting people if you don't make your terms clear on your page.

Marylou I used to not mind the "post a link to my mesh" thing, then I did a project with someone that took me ages (I'm not a quick creator) only to find they used meshes I couldn't share on my site. I did the "post a link to get the mesh" thing, then they moved the meshes around twice to the point that noone could find them at all, which made my work totally useless. You can understand my annoyance.

So I won't use something if it's a "don't share it on" mesh because I'm not wasting hours of my time.. and I might not be a mesh creator, but trust me, I spend hours getting my stuff right these days.

I'm very careful if I use something, I make sure it's properly credited, and I'll make sure the creator's terms allow it. It's just the way I think, it's all about respect. I think I might be in the minority these days.

The thing is though, it makes it easier for me to walk away from free creators who don't allow any kind of redistribution because I think they're cutting off their nose to spite their face. Most of the people who get really popular usually have open sharing terms (like our Nouk further up the thread) So if they want their stuff to (in most cases) stay an obscure niche market, that's up to them.

Out of respect for people in the Sims community, people need to streamline their terms a little to make it easier on their fellow simmers.

[summersong86]

I don't know if I should edit my existing post to add this, but it's a different point so I guess it's okay to leave it separate? Maybe we are going too overboard picking apart a very simple statement by HP. Like I had said, there are now sites out there offering meshes packaged with recolors, sometimes with credit, sometimes without, and they are even doing this with pay meshes, which likely indicates that the meshes were not released for redistribution. I have seen this and was absolutely puzzled about it, but being the kind of person who generally sees the good in people, thought that the people doing this had some kind of agreement with the meshmaker. It is very good of HP to let us know this is not necessarily so. It's a good heads-up to those of us who really don't pay attention to all the nuances of the "artist community". Most of us after all just go to get nice looking stuff, or create nice looking stuff and are totally oblivious to all the strings that are attached.

And I think most of us, at least those of us who take the time to post and thank creators, want to do the "right thing". Even if the right thing seems silly and is merely a consensus on how the majority feels things "ought" to be done, not necessarily what we think makes the best sense. To me, the right thing is to make nice things, share nice things, without hurting people's feelings or making them feel taken advantage of. If that means following restrictive terms, so be it. Kindness and respect should not be a rare commodity in any community. It costs only a little bit extra effort to put somebody's feelings before your own. If you have a gripe, vent away. I do. But don't subject someone to what in their mind seems like a violation or robbery.

That said, artists who pitch the equivalent of a hissy fit when they find someone innocently and honestly violated their terms should take a step back and remember respect is best taught by example.

[buggybooz]

Well said Hp.

I was going to post more than I will. Somehow the thread got hijacked a few posts back. I will just add the simple statement that the biggest drama queens are not necessarily the ones that spring to mind, most drama queens are, in fact, not female at all:). Shame because you had and still have a very valid point. So thankyou for stating something that needed to be said.

[TenshiiAkari12]

hp is obviously a mature person. they want whats best for the community overall. this has been a long time coming, and the whole 'free for all' movement is a bunch of teenagers, who just wanna do what we wanna do. and it's also sort of fun to cause great debates like this.

btw, i regularly see other creators creations reposted on other sites, especialy the exchange. i havent seen any of mine elxwhere yet though...
Just to add on to what you said:

Sad part is, most of those people aren't even teenagers, either. You've got fully grown men and women who do as they please in this case. :lol:

In some ways, yes we all tend to have that "selfish entitlement" in us... I'll admit, I even think that way sometimes. While I do believe in a "free-for-all" distribution policy for some, I heavily believe in respecting a creator's wishes moreso than the former... but it really does depend on how much the creator has respect and faith in their fanbase, also. As I've been taught: "You've got to give respect in order to get it." The Golden Rule FTW. :deal:

If someone has that policy with the "not for use on fat sims" or "don't edit or recolor my stuff for any reasons because it's already perfect" stuff in it, ( :rofl: ) then I see it as something to avoid at all costs... because if I can't even edit the textures for my own personal use in my game, then that tells me the creator has little faith in the downloaders... which is kind of a downer to me. :( (... this is mainly geared towards certain artists do that method of disabling exportation of textures in Bodyshop. Lack of trust is depressing.)

What good is it going to do us if everyone is going to make things difficult for each other? (meaning hoops, chutes, and ladders for TOS from the creators, and the non-reading, "just don't care cuz I wantz" people who ignore them.) It's just not good for anyone in that case. Just like it's been said, if everyone works together on this (downloaders, creators, and violators alike) we might see a change down the road. May not be immediate, but if people are willing to try it, it's a definite start. :cool:

[Sim_Me]

Boy I'm sure glad I just recolor Maxi's default stuff :P

[Alisar]

I do not go for forums but I felt there are some drama queens/kings all around me :) and pirates! also pirates :!:
well, stupidity always beat me (referred to pirates) and drama oblige me to stop and ask why (all people, and thus all creators -pay or free- have the same rights, haven't they?)
I respect creators and their work and the reasons coming with their policies, whatever they are. the matter is: how a pirate can be stopped to steal from pay-sites? how people stealing free creators can be stopped too? I think the reason why I have stopped surfing much other sites is MTS2 seriousness and sense of responsability to all users, just like if all we are a big company's customers: so this is the way, just do what we think it is correct and avoid to do what would upset us. if we take this as a mission, I mean - we do not steal, we contact pirates and stealers and try to make them come to reason, we advise creators we found out their work was stolen, and do all this without loosing serenity and trust, then some agreement can be found maybe, also with paysites (I do not judge the people who prefer them) - be altogether to win our goals, that's the way - and respect all ideas and ways of living/thinking/etc, stating that my freedom ends where yours begins, and viceversa ;) hope I was clear - pls pardon possible Italianism :p and, maybe, if I am a bit naive :lol:

[jmtmom]

I deleted my earlier comment to avoid flaring the paysite debate. However, I'm getting tired of the pro-side freely airing their views. That's not what we're talking about here, it has no relevance. MTS2 doesn't allow any posting of paysite meshes, you can't even put pictures of pay items in your uploads, so that's not the issue here. The issue is what should the standard be for free creators.

[J. M. Pescado]

I respect creators and their work and the reasons coming with their policies, whatever they are. the matter is: how a pirate can be stopped to steal from pay-sites? how people stealing free creators can be stopped too?Because it's logically ludicrous? You can't "steal" something that is free!

That said, artists who pitch the equivalent of a hissy fit when they find someone innocently and honestly violated their terms should take a step back and remember respect is best taught by example.The community is better off without those drama queens. If they want to soup, let them. As people keep pointing out, there are plenty of others. The point must be made that this sort of behavior should no longer be tolerated, and if it means a few of the whiners soup, so be it. You can't make an omelet without breaking some eggs.

[Xiphilina]

H.P., I commend you for your courage. I would never have the guts to post something like this, but I appreciate it.

I don't make things- I have tried (ewwww) and I have great respect for the fantastic artists that make my game interesting. Without you, I don't want to play. Losing people over something so silly (sorry, it is, after all and all obsessions aside, a game) hurts: it hurts me and the community as a whole. Without the fantastic creators who's policies on free play made it possible for modding Sims in the first place, we would still be staring at pixelated, cartoony, and vastly less interesting sims.

I should hope that everyone has enough politeness is their soul to respect a creator's individual creativity and wishes. After all, it is that very idea, the fantastic and normal things that they create, which make our games special. This community is very special to me: I saw it begin years ago and I hope it will continue. This is my homepage: no matter where in the world people are, we are all coming here together to enjoy what everyone has to offer. If any one person were to leave because they fell violated it will fall apart.

Several years ago, Numenor posted about an experience he had over someone stealing his work. He continues (many blessings heaped upon him for his creations!) to create and enhance our game. I apologize to him for bringing this up, but I remember how appalled we were then that someone had the gall to do that! Now, we sigh and carry on.

Thank you again, H.P., for reminding us how much we would miss this if it were gone. I intend to be here for a very long time- as long as one server continues to try and work, I'll be here, trying to download and post. And trying. Trying. Hey- I got it! ;)

Al :bunny:

[HystericalParoxysm]

This thread is not about pay sites or pay content. I am concentrating on free sites because this is a free site which advocates the use of all free content and I don't think you should use paysite content AT ALL. I am not bringing paysites into this because I do not want this to be just another paysite debate.

There are whole other forums for debating the use of pay content - we don't do pay content here at all. We also do not not allow people to post work that is in violation of the creator's terms of use or without permission - no matter who they are - and this is not a new thing - no change of policies is required because that is our current policy and says nowhere on it "but it's okay if it's pay stuff" nor did my above post say that. Yes, I won't deny that I have a heck of a lot more respect for free creators in general because they're giving without wanting anything in return the politics of pay content do not belong here. This was not intended to be a pay vs. free anything and that argument has too much -other- stuff wrapped up in it to be lumped in here.

If you want to debate about the intricacies of taking a pay creator's work and using it without permission/links/credit please take yourself to one of the forums based on the whole paysite thing and do it there.

I did not want a point about the common courtesy of providing links and credits for freely-available things, or getting permission when necessary - and having nice open policies to allow people to use your stuff - getting derailed with the same old "But paysites are bad, we can do what we want with paysite stuff!" "Yes we can!" "No you can't!" which has been debated to death in more appropriate forums.

Again, please do not derail this thread with off-topic paysite-related stuff...


NOW THEN... *clears throat*

I completely agree with the points made above about having good file descriptions and good readme filenames so stuff can be found. And I certainly don't want it to seem like I think any policy no matter what it is, is fair. I think we should tend to allow people to use our work pretty freely with links and credit as a rule, and that it'd be a heck of a lot easier to do things that way than if everyone wanted permission for everything - nice open policies are a good thing, and if you want to say "do whatever you want with my stuff" then go right ahead. :) But if you don't and just feel like being stuffy with extremely over-restrictive policies, well, knock it off - or don't be terribly surprised when people don't bother with your work in favour of someone else who's not so restrictive. :)

JM - Of course you can steal free stuff - if someone puts up a drawing online and says "You can view this on your computer, set it as your background, even print it out and hang it on your wall, but if you want to modify it or use it commercially or use it for a publication or your website or something like that, please ask me first and give credit," it's still free, just free with limitations. But just because you -can- do something doesn't mean you -should-.

And if you don't like someone's soup because it's too bitchy, make your own soup as there's soupmaking recipes and help on making soup all over the place... or you can go eat someone else's soup as there's probably a similar recipe around somewhere as there's plenty of soup shacks around - one way or the other you aren't gonna starve if you don't eat the bitchy soup, but there's also no need to piss in the bitchy soupmaker's bowl just because you don't like the way they serve it. (Hey, I like metaphors, and I prefer soup to omelettes.)

[Medicated]

at one time i was a relatively prolific creator on this site and i quit not because of people who violated my very liberal terms of use but because of other creators that somehow thought their creations were something special that had to be protected. i would find meshes that were perfect for my creations only to discovered that the creators of those meshes had incredibly draconian rules that prevented me from fully using those meshes in my work. my main focus was the downloader. i am a downloader and i do vote with my clicky finger. i refuse to download from people who don't allow their meshes to be included in other people's works. i don't go on the odessy. i feel that i am entitled to free and unencumbered use of all that is on the internet because thats the point of the whole institution. its the final frontier. the more people put restrictions on the internet the less fun it becomes. free creators who don't allow free use of their creations are just like those a$$e$ from Metallica that ruined downloading music for everyone. in the end it comes down to a battle between my sense of entitlement as a downloader and your sense of entitlement as an ego-inflated creator.

[Medicated]

thats exactly what i'm saying.

[HystericalParoxysm]

Medicated - So you're saying that you should be allowed to do whatever you want with anything that can be translated to an electronic format and distributed via the internet? Take your trolling elsewhere.

(User is banned for having a duplicate account - not their comments here.)

[J. M. Pescado]

This was not intended to be a pay vs. free anything and that argument has too much -other- stuff wrapped up in it to be lumped in here.The problem is that the entire "Creators' Rights" argument is essentially the logical first step to a pro-paysite stance. Therefore, anytime you start arguing in favor of Creators' Rights, you are essentially making a pro-paysite argument. Once you start assuming that creators have "rights", the obvious logical step starts to be when they start selling that. Also, the entire "Creators' Rights" argument is essentially a pro-DRM and anti "Users' Rights" argument. This is why I am fundamentally opposed to the idea despite the fact that I am quite likely the longest-running prolific TS2 creator: I was there from the beginning when this all started with the Jump Bug Fix, and I never left. Yet, I oppose this entire "Creators' Rights" business. It is a bad end, the start of a slippery slope that ends only when users can no longer determine what goes on with their own computers.

JM - Of course you can steal free stuff - if someone puts up a drawing online and says "You can view this on your computer, set it as your background, even print it out and hang it on your wall, but if you want to modify it or use it commercially or use it for a publication or your website or something like that, please ask me first and give credit," it's still free, just free with limitations.I personally hold the view that it nothing is "wrong" with doing any non-commercial thing you want with anything you have acquired by any legitimate means. Period. If I download a free drawing, then proceed to scribble in MSPAINT over it and put it up on my website, I see nothing wrong with this. There is a certain amount of support for this under even presently existing "fair use" clauses, but I don't think the present system goes far enough. The entire "copyrights" thing was a noble thing that has become perverted to a mockery of what it was intended for.

And if you don't like someone's soup because it's too bitchy, make your own soup as there's soupmaking recipes and help on making soup all over the place... or you can go eat someone else's soup as there's probably a similar recipe around somewhere as there's plenty of soup shacks around - one way or the other you aren't gonna starve if you don't eat the bitchy soup, but there's also no need to piss in the bitchy soupmaker's bowl just because you don't like the way they serve it.Or I could take the soup in question, analyze it, and make an improved soup recipe out of it, and when that someone declines to implement it, serve the improved knockoff soup to people and call it "MORE AWESOME THAN YOUR SOUP".

Medicated - So you're saying that you should be allowed to do whatever you want with anything that can be translated to an electronic format and distributed via the internet? Take your trolling elsewhere.Ultimately, I favor this position over the alternate extreme. If I were to choose between two extremes, I would favor this one over allowing someone ELSE to dictate what goes on with MY COMPUTER.

[Saraswati5]

The problem is that the entire "Creators' Rights" argument is essentially the logical first step to a pro-paysite stance.

Uh no, they're two seperate arguments. People can have opinions the whole way along the pole on both. This is about people finding a way to realistically live with the community as it is. Creator's rights.. and it's a bad phrase, it conveys an entitlement that isn't there, isn't quite it. It's not a question of creator's rights, it's just a question of people sometimes having discomfort with where this stuff goes, and people respecting that to keep the community reasonably civil. And I don't want to drag the argument in again, but even the most enthused free site person has a set of terms we'd like people to keep.. most of us never, never want to see our stuff shared on a paysite. We can't do anything to stop people if they do, but we'd generally prefer that they'd not. Most people also would get distressed if their content was used for a story or content they find morally offensive (to use another example) It's not a case of having or not having terms, it's a case of having a reasonable, sustainable, not give people ulcers terms..

And I apologise for the block of text above, it's been a long day at work.... :lol:

[HystericalParoxysm]

:lol: And I tend to think that the slippery slope skews the other way - that the proliferation of the acceptance of stuff like PMBD has slid the free community along with it into the mud. But I think there -is- a middle ground, an acceptable balance between the two where you reward the good creators with fair terms sharing freely with your thanks, downloads, and use of their work in accordance with their terms - again, I don't favour restrictive terms and I think it's best for us to be pretty darn open about this stuff to make things easier on downloaders and just more creative-friendly... but I think the way to do that is with a positive promotion of the culture we want to see - instead of bothering with people who are gonna hold onto their stuff with a deathgrip, just go use someone else's stuff, and if the only things getting recoloured are from people who have nice open policies that don't make you ask permission if you don't want to do that, then, uhm, great! Just ignore the rest - or, if you're so awesome, do your own version that's better.

Sure, I don't see why your souping-up of the soup recipe is unacceptable... as long as you've made your own soup and your own recipe based on your own skill as a cook, which is sure to not be identical to theirs as you haven't actually replicated what they originally made on a molecular level. If you've used that bitchy soupmaker's soup as a base for yours so it's actually half their soup and some other stuff you threw in on top... or gone and used some of their homegrown vegetables without asking or them having up a sign that says 'free for the pickins' then the soup isn't entirely yours. Inspired by and learning from is one thing - using a molecular-nano-wotsit-replicator and adding a little salt and some cheese is quite another. But why start with bitchsoup in the first place when there's so much lovely soup out there made by sweet old ladies who happily hand you their bowls of soup with a smile and warm wishes, and wouldn't mind a bit if you suggested that their soup would be perfect with a bit of bacon served in a bread bowl, and give you their recipe and ask you to share your modifications if you go home and try it?

This thread makes me hungry.

[felcign]

This is all very boring after six years. More so, given that the original 'artists' from Sims1 days all seem to have disappeared now. They were the ones that started the blackmail with cries of "if you don't pay - we'll have to leave!". Soon enough the "big 5" Simsites jumped onto the bandwagon too. We were told that "bandwidth" was the problem. These poor little starving artists couldn't afford to keep paying the huge hosting bills to keep their hobby going. Apparantly I, the 'typical user', should contribute to these costs for my part in running up a bill which ultimately, isn't my responsibility.

One proposed solution was "donation"!! Yay. Only those feeling guilty should pay. This is perhaps the most insidious payment method, as it quickly turned into "donator rewards". Normally the "reward" offered was a key object in a set. So from there, it has now turned into "pay-per-object", as now they become "donation sets" with only a decorative toilet roll as the token "freebie". Suddenly, time-based subscription sites are looking less nasty....

But this is about artist's rights, not paysites. Really? Those artists that insist on the "linking back" policy are really generating additional traffic and increasing their own costs. So how do you justify on one hand asking everyone to come to your site and on the other complain about how much it costs you to upkeep it? The ultimate insult comes when these sites proudly proclaim that their product is BETA! Yay! My stuff's so good, it's not even finished!!! In other words, no consumer warranty, for something that they expect to get paid for. Artists? Con-artists more likely.

As to the pay-site debate, it ended for me with the release of the first "Stuff Pack". This was always my greatest concern, that EA would start charging for content. Just think... the next one might be "TSR Stuff"...

I'll go back to my 'typical users' box now.

(I'd like to thank 'Ati' from 'The Admirable Fantastic Shoppe' - for bringing the true nature of the Sims community to my attention in mid 2001)

[HystericalParoxysm]

*sighs*

This is not about paysites.
This is a free site that advocates the use of all free content.
This is not about paysites.
Pro-free does not have to mean anti-pay or pro-pay. It can just mean pro-free.
This is not about paysites.

IF YOU HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY ABOUT PAYSITES TAKE IT TO A FORUM ABOUT PAYSITES. I am not letting this dang thing turn into the same old argument.

Seriously. This is the last time I'm saying it. From now on it's warnings and deletions.

(Thanks, Saraswati5 - your comments in this thread have been eloquent and graceful and very well written. Probably better than my brain can handle at the moment, what with the caps and the bold. Heh.)

[J. M. Pescado]

:lol: And I tend to think that the slippery slope skews the other way - that the proliferation of the acceptance of stuff like PMBD has slid the free community along with it into the mud. But I think there -is- a middle ground, an acceptable balance between the two where you reward the good creators with fair terms sharing freely with your thanks, downloads, and use of their work in accordance with their termsPerhaps, but at least the question has been planted. Paysites are no longer accepted entirely without question. Before, people mutely accepted this as natural and proper. No other gaming community accepts this. So when I saw an opportunity to stab them in the eye, I did it! Because I am mean, and like to scowl. As for the "acceptable balance", while I am not opposed to the concept of respecting reasonable requests, I would similarly not be displeased if the entire concept got dumped into the trash! Picking between two extremes, I find anarchy preferrable to totalitarianism.

If you've used that bitchy soupmaker's soup as a base for yours so it's actually half their soup and some other stuff you threw in on top... or gone and used some of their homegrown vegetables without asking or them having up a sign that says 'free for the pickins' then the soup isn't entirely yours.Ah, but the CC analogy here is similar: What happens when I divine the original CC maker's recipe and then proceed to modify it to suit my tastes? This is exactly what has happened in certain noteworthy cases, and certain creators then proceed to scream bloody murder. This sort of behavior is essentially anti-creativity. If everyone had to reinvent the wheel from scratch to create their own textures and alphas for everything, nothing would ever get done. Coders don't write all of their code from scratch, they often salvage from existing resources. Why should meshers or texturers be any different?

But why start with bitchsoup in the first place when there's so much lovely soup out there made by sweet old ladies who happily hand you their bowls of soup with a smile and warm wishes, and wouldn't mind a bit if you suggested that their soup would be perfect with a bit of bacon served in a bread bowl, and give you their recipe and ask you to share your modifications if you go home and try it?Because it is my dissatisfaction with the original product that drives me to create anything at all. If I had been satisfied with the condition of TS2, if the jump bug had never been an issue, I probably would not have paid much attention to modifying the game for very long. It was my fundamental dissatisfaction with the fact that my game had become unplayable that motivated me to start digging in the first place. Without this motivation, I wouldn't have bothered. It's not like I'm typically in the habit of modifying games.

Plenty of people have likely attempted to get their start by modifying some piece of CC that displeased them or was inadequate in some way, only to be shouted down before they ever got started. Every time this happens, a potential creator, someone who would likely not have become a similar diva, has been lost forever. And so the community is largely dominated by screaming divas who think their shit is gold. Even those who aren't have largely passively accepted this paradigm: Don't touch anyone else's shit. It turns every piece of CC into what is fundamentally an evolutionary dead end. Nothing can be built on it, because if you try to modify someone else's CC, they scream bloody murder and the community perception supports this sort of behavior. I, however, oppose this stance. This is why I have NO usage policy. Besides, what would be the point? Creating a toothless policy one cannot enforce simply weakens every other rule: If this rule is meaningless, why should any other rule be meaningful? Toothless, stupid laws simply weaken the respect for all other laws.

[Delphy]

People are saying stuff about "Creators Rights" when, in fact, it's not really about "rights" - it's about respect, which is, I might add, a heck of a lot harder to gain in this community than any so-called rights.

Most of HPs post was about the respect that people have for others in this community, and the way some people seem to treat creators, and particular ones who give everything for free and require nothing back except simple recognition, and was also giving advice on how to get that, in terms of general policies.

Sure, there are people who have no policies (like Pescado) just as there will be people who have very strict ones (Don't use my stuff in pictures, or if you do, link to me). But this is always the case in any community. There will always be extremes - always people on the edge or more conservative. That's, really, not the point - it's more about the people who aren't on the edge and who just go out thier daily creating and sharing items and generally being helpful and smart and having teh meshing skillz or teh recolourabubbles or whatever... In essence, the large majority of the people who create and share here on MTS2.

Essentially, you have a base of people who have built this community up - all of the tools are free. All of the tutorials are free. Pretty much all of the breakthrough items have been released on free sites. People spend a hell of a lot of time and effort to produce things that are, in general, some of the best in the entire community. In my opinion, yes, the free creators "deserve" more respect than the pay ones simply becuase they do not expect to get anything whatsoever back.

But note that we as a site only allow free content. We do not allow pay content in pictures or to be uploaded or used on Sims, in Lots, etc. We are entirely free, and as HP has said, the entire "pay vs free" argument really isn't what this is about.

In essence, this is actually more about free creators having good policies, so that people can share thier work without them getting all uppity and throwing toys out of prams or whatever. If a creator has a good policy and is friendly and responds to requests for recolours or whatever, then they are much more likely to gain acceptance and respect in this community which is, to be honest, overwhelmed with a lot of talent and a lot of people vying for that "top spot".

So, again, this is not really about pay vs free, it's more about a general "awareness" of the issue - and not just from the downloaders side, but from the creators too. It's about respect on both sides. Most people assume that it's only one way but it's not. Downloaders respect creators for putting work into items and uploading them, but creators (and site owners, for that matter) should respect the people who actually use thier stuff by having good policies that benefit everybody.

Discussion is part of change, and sometimes that change is not always good, but it is my firm belief that awareness of the issues and just getting them into peoples heads is a Good Thing - which is part of the reason why I posted up things like the MTS2 Mission Statement last year. If we can get that awareness out there - to downloaders, creators and site owners alike, then I think things will stabilise but, as I mentioned, there will never be agreement - especially in such a large community.

That is all. :)

[HystericalParoxysm]

Perhaps, but at least the question has been planted. Paysites are no longer accepted entirely without question. Before, people mutely accepted this as natural and proper. No other gaming community accepts this. So when I saw an opportunity to stab them in the eye, I did it! Because I am mean, and like to scowl. As for the "acceptable balance", while I am not opposed to the concept of respecting reasonable requests, I would similarly not be displeased if the entire concept got dumped into the trash! Picking between two extremes, I find anarchy preferrable to totalitarianism.
You're just a grumpy old goat. I get that. ;) But I don't think we have to have anarchy or totalitarianism. I think we can have a middle ground, that while there will always be shaggybearded fist-wavers from the sides, that it doesn't have to be all or nothing. Really all I think most free creators - the ones who have a decent perspective on this stuff, at least - want is just a bit of recognition for what they've done.

Ah, but the CC analogy here is similar: What happens when I divine the original CC maker's recipe and then proceed to modify it to suit my tastes? This is exactly what has happened in certain noteworthy cases, and certain creators then proceed to scream bloody murder. This sort of behavior is essentially anti-creativity. If everyone had to reinvent the wheel from scratch to create their own textures and alphas for everything, nothing would ever get done. Coders don't write all of their code from scratch, they often salvage from existing resources. Why should meshers or texturers be any different?
You are unlikely to get the exact recipe of the soupmaker and it will vary slightly in making it yourself - your skill and exactly how you will prepare it varies as you're doing it from scratch based on a recipe. I realize that you're dealing mostly with hack type stuff and that is pretty different from I think more of what I'm thinking: 3d models and textures. There is sort of a limited number of combinations of things that will work in code stuff to achieve your desired result - and of course there are better ways to do it than others. And I don't disagree that starting from scratch when there's a good thing out there already can be a pain in the ass - which is why people are free to use my textures how they like and I just want them to talk to me before they go doing stuff with my meshes. But I also try to write a lot of tutorials so people -can- make things from scratch themselves. Whenever I find a new technique or new piece of information I generally fall all over myself to write a tutorial about it. I wish more people were the same way.

It was my fundamental dissatisfaction with the fact that my game had become unplayable that motivated me to start digging in the first place.
You talk so tough but you still play with pixel dollies. It's cute. :giggler:

Plenty of people have likely attempted to get their start by modifying some piece of CC that displeased them or was inadequate in some way, only to be shouted down before they ever got started.
Well... while I have been... harsh in the past when I, well, cared more about what was done with my own work... I certainly don't think people need to be shouted down for trying to create... just if they're going to share something based on someone else's work, to just check with the creator first and make sure that's okay. You don't necessarily have to share everything you make, and one can learn quite a lot just tinkering with half-finished projects. I've got loads of them myself. People can get pretty upset about stuff - I have myself as you well know - but I'm now much more of the mind that keeping a level head about the whole thing and having people go, "Erm, this is nice and all but you really should link to me for the use of my textures," wouldn't be unreasonable if someone's creation has formed a significant part of the finished product.

It turns every piece of CC into what is fundamentally an evolutionary dead end. Nothing can be built on it, because if you try to modify someone else's CC, they scream bloody murder and the community perception supports this sort of behavior. I, however, oppose this stance.
Well, as I've tried to make clear the message I was trying to send was not that we should blindly follow all creator policies but that we should work toward a community in which the accepted norm is a much more free sharing of work for modification under more loose policies.

And I guess this all depends on one's perspective: I'm thinking for things like hair... where modifying and redistributing it really doesn't share anything with the community but another pretty hairstyle - the real information and the innovation in that area, at least, comes in things that you can simply open the files, look at, and reproduce yourself - but just use the basic concepts you learn there and make your own parts.

Doesn't have to be the same hairstyle or even a similar one that you make in the end, but you can see that SAU or Rose or Nouk or Sizz or whoever do this cool duplicate alphas trick where they have several alpha groups of the same name, but with different opacities, which reduces the complexity in recolouring and eliminates most of the difficulty that alpha group layering normally presents. The best way to learn from this is to examine existing hairs and then apply the technique to your own work, to really learn how it works and see it in action - modifying an existing hair done does not further the cause of creativity and sharing information near as much as just popping open the files, examining the way they're done, and then using that new knowledge to apply to your own project. The same applies to things like clothing textures and that kinda thing too - examine closely, try to replicate, learn more in the process than copy-pasting would have taught you. Examining the brush strokes, then going to make your own painting...

Besides, what would be the point? Creating a toothless policy one cannot enforce simply weakens every other rule: If this rule is meaningless, why should any other rule be meaningful? Toothless, stupid laws simply weaken the respect for all other laws.
It's not a rule, it's not a law, it's a request. Of course you -can- go and modify stuff to your heart's content (as shriveled and blackened as yours may be) and stick it up on the Exchange or whereever... but it doesn't mean you -should-. Nobody can stop you, and yelling doesn't help, but as long as people have decently open policies to begin with and don't go overboard feeling like they need to cling desperately to their creations, what's the problem? Link and credit, ask for permission now and then for a few things, no big deal. It's a matter of courtesy more than anything anyone makes you do. And if someone wants something more than that, eh, just go use something else - not like there's a shortage of stuff out there to recolour or get alphas from or whatever.

I honestly think we're closer to agreeing with each other on this issue than we thought, JM... I just think a spoonful of honey works a bit better than a broomstick covered in sandpaper when it comes to herding a bunch of artistic-types toward a different way of thinking. ;)

[J. M. Pescado]

People are saying stuff about "Creators Rights" when, in fact, it's not really about "rights" - it's about respect, which is, I might add, a heck of a lot harder to gain in this community than any so-called rights.Respect is not something one gains by shrill shrieking and unreasonable "terms of use" demands. While non-plagiarism is a concept that is hammered into every schoolchild, asking for anything beyond that is fundamentally diva-esque. Besides, nobody actually reads those statements, because 99% of the time, they're in quasi-legalese and make people's eyes glaze over just glancing at it.

Most of HPs post was about the respect that people have for others in this community, and the way some people seem to treat creators, and particular ones who give everything for free and require nothing back except simple recognition, and was also giving advice on how to get that, in terms of general policies.The less you ask for, the more likely you'll be able to get it.

Discussion is part of change, and sometimes that change is not always good, but it is my firm belief that awareness of the issues and just getting them into peoples heads is a Good Thing - which is part of the reason why I posted up things like the MTS2 Mission Statement last year.Personal experience tells me that the only thing which gets anything into people's heads is brutality. Never attempt settle with words what you can accomplish with a flamethrower. History teaches us that change only comes when someone starts swinging the axe. If you want to make an impact, you have to kill millions and lay waste to countless square kilometers of countryside.

[simsartthat]

*sighs*

This is not about paysites.
This is a free site that advocates the use of all free content.
This is not about paysites.
Pro-free does not have to mean anti-pay or pro-pay. It can just mean pro-free.
This is not about paysites.



I thought this was about, to quote you from your first post:

- On Policies/Terms of Use, Respect, Violations Thereof...

- There are still discoveries to be made, and the more brilliant minds we force out by demonstrating careless, greedy, lazy attitudes instead of kindness and respect, the less likely we are to see anything new and amazing being made in future

- A community is formed by the people in it, and it is up to each individual member of this community - creators and downloaders alike - to treat others with courtesy and to create an atmosphere of learning, sharing information, and encouraging new creators to share their work as they know it will be appreciated and not misused.

- what it means to be part of this community, and what it means to respect someone as an artist.


My bad.

EDIT: Just an question, sorry....does this mean that you'll be editing Sims2Wiki accordingly? I guess we'll all lose the luxury of such a comprehensive list..what a shame.

EDIT2: Since I'm a regular at your sister forum S2C, this whole thing interests me because I'm really curious how this will affect policy there. HP where you say:



I believe the solutions to these problems come in several forms:

To downloaders...

Get your content from reputable creators. Use freely available content posted in accordance with the creators' terms in your game and in your pictures and movies. Even if something looks awfully pretty, if you know it's posted on a site or forum that allows terms of use violations, don't download it. There's too much free content posted correctly to fill your game up with stuff that is stolen, or at least partially stolen. While it may be nice to get whatever you want free from all sorts of places, remember that you have artistic karma too, and you can choose who to support and who to pass by. Vote with your clicky-finger, and choose content for your game that comes from the original creator, or is posted in accordance with their terms of use.



How will this be reconciled with sharing *certain sources* over at S2C?

Thanks in advance!!

[summersong86]

JM, I agree with your impatience over the diva aspects of the community. But how do you propose to make somebody see it your way? I personally don't want to drive away even the most diva-ish of the divas who make things I really enjoy. I am now to the point in terms of making skins where I can either imagine from scratch almost anything I like, or replicate using my own textures and photos, to within 90% of resemblance somebody else's work. But there's that last percentage I can't replicate because it's something special from deep within that other artist. Haven't you ever seen an item that somebody posted as theirs and you could tell not only that they deftly composited pieces of other artists work, but you could even tell which artist? Yes, sometimes people leave that much distinctiveness to their work, like a fingerprint.

Maybe a given diva's personality is a total zero in my book and I totally disagree with everything they think, say or do in regards to Sims. But if I were to violate their terms of use or go up and tell them too forcefully that their policies suck, I'd risk losing their contributions forever. Why would I want to do that? What gives me that right to be that mean and disrespectful? HP was just saying how we could move toward a fair middle ground in most cases. Demonstrate respect and refrain from the more egregious strayings too far in either direction, and by example lift the community up to where the cooperation we seek can exist.

I'm not entirely in disagreement with what you say about wielding the axe and all that--IN ANOTHER context. But you're dealing with artistic temperaments. Dude...that's a whole different planet than the ones you're used to conquering. And never mind what goes on with other gaming communities. I mean, basically we are all just playing with dolls, y'know. Barbies and bludgeons don't really mix. Did you ever stop to consider that the reason we do tolerate behavior and even nurture a few divas now and again is because this game is NOT like, um,...Warcraft or whatever your frame of reference is. Budding architects, interior designers, clothing designers, manga artists and fashionistas are likely not your typical gaming community. And I'm probably leaving out a lot of other creative professions relating to sims that I'm not familiar with, like the storytelling and film aspects of sims.

Okay, I guess I'm outta here, and oh...sorry and my apologies to HP and others for any referencing or inadvertent pay site talk I put in to my previous posts. The whole pay site issue is new to me and I tend to get it mixed up with any and all other of the confusion and chaos about simming that confounds me since I came back to the game. And sorry for any bad grammar. Sometimes my game is on, sometimes not. I'm probably pre-menopausal and my mind is definitely going, whatever the reason. So sue me. Bwahaha.

[jmtmom]

Maybe a given diva's personality is a total zero in my book and I totally disagree with everything they think, say or do in regards to Sims. But if I were to violate their terms of use or go up and tell them too forcefully that their policies suck, I'd risk losing their contributions forever. Why would I want to do that?

Maybe the loss of a few Divas would be better than the loss of everyone else's creative potential. The chilling effect is more harmful than losing a few theoretical hairs/clothing/objects yet to be created. We already know that even if someone tries to take their toys and go home, other people will continue to distribute their toys anyway. There's nothing to be done about it. However, if you have a reasonable policy, and people respect you, others will look out for your interests and make sure someone else doesn't take credit for your work. As I think about the people whose stuff I like, most have pretty liberal sharing policies. A few just haven't thought about what hassles their policies cause for other people. Really, credit and a link should be enough for anyone.

[Hinoemasim]

I don't see a big issue, myself. If I want to recolor something, for example, and someone's requested terms of use are in agreement with what I want to do with the item, all is well.

If the item creator would rather I don't do something with their item- like redistribute a mesh- and I think it should be done, I can ask if they'd make an exception. If the answer is no, I have a choice- don't use the mesh, item or similar for recoloring or whatever, or use it anyway and say to heck with what the person who originally made it wants. To me, that's a no brainer. I'd rather leave it be and find another item- or create one from scratch.

Sure, some creators have unreasonable terms of use. The choice is the same- don't use it, or use it despite that. I prefer the former.

[jasonduskey]

But I LIKE pissing in the bitchy soupmaker's bowl. Maybe it will get the bitchy soupmaker to realize that his/her soup isn't the whip after all, or that it's not the only soup shop in town. And the way some of these people make their soup, you're doing them a favor

[J. M. Pescado]

JM, I agree with your impatience over the diva aspects of the community. But how do you propose to make somebody see it your way?You don't have to. Just give them no other options. The fact of the matter is that my "way" is logically consistent and feasible. Their way is not. The failure of their way to work demonstrates the correctness of my way and the incorrectness of theirs. Proof by counterexample. Simple as that.

But if I were to violate their terms of use or go up and tell them too forcefully that their policies suck, I'd risk losing their contributions forever. Why would I want to do that? What gives me that right to be that mean and disrespectful?Because making emo losers cry brings joy to my twisted and blackened heart? Because I despise their kind and crushing their pathetic emotions to paste gives me joy? Because when they commit real or virtual suicide, I laugh at them? What is it with you people and your obsession with "rights"? Why does everything need to be a "right"? Why can't something just BE?

I'm not entirely in disagreement with what you say about wielding the axe and all that--IN ANOTHER context. But you're dealing with artistic temperaments. Dude...that's a whole different planet than the ones you're used to conquering.Pssh. Are you saying there is no artistry in anything else? That is ridiculous. Meshers and texturers exist in practicall all modding communities, but the level of diva-ism exceeds all previous highs here.

And never mind what goes on with other gaming communities. I mean, basically we are all just playing with dolls, y'know. Barbies and bludgeons don't really mix.They're not dolls. They're ACTION FIGURES.

Did you ever stop to consider that the reason we do tolerate behavior and even nurture a few divas now and again is because this game is NOT like, um,...Warcraft or whatever your frame of reference is. Budding architects, interior designers, clothing designers, manga artists and fashionistas are likely not your typical gaming community.In the circus, new elephants are placed between the old elephants, who show them how to properly behave.

And I'm probably leaving out a lot of other creative professions relating to sims that I'm not familiar with, like the storytelling and film aspects of sims.Storytellers and film makers are not really a part of modding or custom content creation, as they do not produce actual content. They are really fundamentaly irrelevant to the discussion, as for them, the game is a tool, and what they produce isn't even part of the game at all.

Maybe the loss of a few Divas would be better than the loss of everyone else's creative potential. The chilling effect is more harmful than losing a few theoretical hairs/clothing/objects yet to be created.This is what I am saying, yes. In the end, somebody must be driven away, and when it comes to deciding who it should be, I choose the divas. We are better off without them.

[Saraswati5]

Simsarthat it took me several times to read your post to try to get any sense out of it at all. The post at first glance seemed so far off the point to make nearly no sense at all.

If you're saying "why share paysite hair links on the Wiki if you feel like this" if you're saying this is not about paysites, you are essentially missing the point of HP's thread totally. HP's post was almost totally about the terms you set up if you share your stuff and about people chosing to follow people's TOU or not. Paysites and charging for content are a seperate debate.

JM I agree with you on one thing. Creators having terms and whether we chose to follow them is nothing to do with the reality of the situation. However creating structures and ways of being we can live with is how humans make sense of their lives. The Sims community has a set of norms we all understand and mostly try to work with. HP is simply trying to move those norms in a more sensible direction.

[felcign]

Barbies and bludgeons don't really mix. Did you ever stop to consider that the reason we do tolerate behavior and even nurture a few divas now and again is because this game is NOT like, um,...Warcraft or whatever your frame of reference is. Budding architects, interior designers, clothing designers, manga artists and fashionistas are likely not your typical gaming community.
Ever heard of Morrowind? Lots of Barbies weilding an assortment of sharp and blunt weaponry there. Morrowind characters all have real, meshed clothing. Morrowind towns and houses use 3D models that all need to placed by hand. There are plenty of fashion artists and interior designers amongst that 'community'. The game itself ships with a complete modding toolkit.

The Morrowind community teamed together to develop major projects like:
- Better Faces
- Better Bodies
- Tamriel Rebuilt
- Less Generic Towns
as well as a whole range of associated tools to enable all this. Do some research on these projects. Learn something.

They all suffered the same problems with costs associated with site operations, but I don't recall seeing any off-topic sites developed. They found different ways of managing it.
All in all it was a much more of a community than The Sims or Sims2 communties will ever be and the argument that the Sims community is somehow special just doesn't hold any water. It's just full of egotists.

Thanks to the "artists" that were linked to the old "Nighttime Sims" site, I don't have much respect for any of you.

You artists forget that without people like me to download your crap, it's pretty pointless making it in the first place. I don't see any discussion on how to increase respect for the people who support all this creativity, one way or another.

No-one is forcing you to participate.

[summersong86]

I dunno, JM. If it weren't for someone being what you might consider a "diva" in one particular instance, I would never have discovered for myself the joys of creating from scratch. In my case it didn't stifle creativity, it compelled me to get up off my dead butt and see what I could do. I had made a sim celebrity, and wanted to improve it by using a certain artist's skin. However that skin applied to my sculpt produced the effect of a goatee type of shading under the lower lip. I asked the artist for permission to edit to remove the excess shading--and of course keep full credit and links. The artist sent a very polite denial of my request, saying they had put in too many hours into the work to permit it to be edited. (But I had seen others obtain permission to edit, so I assume the unspoken feeling of the artist was they didn't want to permit their work to be edited by...just anyone.) I was devastated, and being notoriously shy and insecure in unfamiliar social territory, I was also incredibly embarrassed and afraid I had been out of line in my request... oh yes and a little insulted, too...but understood how an established artist might not want people to think a novice's poor editing attempt was part of their original work.

Anyway, instead of having a chilling stifling effect, I became determined to learn how to skin, no small feat if you consider the post-stroke & other health problem induced cognitive issues I have to work around. (Take a look at my posts--some are well worded and to the point and others are rambling and look like they were written by someone who barely knows English--no, I do not drink...that's the result of health problems that literally render me unable to see or think straight--or sometimes...due to a three year old having a conniption because mama dared sit down at the pc to take a moment for herself...sigh...). I resolved that if I ever made something of interest to anyone, I would let them do anything they wanted to do...for all the reasons you say we should be open like that. It is a time saver and a great learning experience to build on existing work. I totally agree with what you all want in regards to the open ended policies. But where I disagree is in how to go about achieving that--by hurting and humiliating the people who do not feel the way we do. By forcibly taking their work and saying to hell with their feelings.

Oh and if I had just taken that artist's work and done as I pleased, I would have offended a very loved, valued and as it turns out, very kind and thoughtful member of the community. People can and do evolve in their attitudes and policies, but do we really need to drag them kicking and screaming into the process? And who cares what the norm is in the other gaming communities? This is Sims2. It attracts a lot of people who do not play other kinds of games and have no concept of how it is done in the other game modding communities. So why forcibly inflict their norms on this one, and so fast? Give people a chance to adjust. HP is not advocating anything unreasonable.

And yes, meshers and texturers exist in other modding communities...some of them also participate here. It's just that some of the people who may exhibit the diva tude you hate are here not because they are game modders per se, but because in their outside life their interests or career are in architecture or fashion design and they apply these talents to sims as an additional outlet. I'm pretty sure they are not going to even be aware of the norms in other modding communities. Instead they are probably carrying over attitudes that are the norms for their real world fashion or design endeavors. Yeah...these attitudes can be stifling at times...again I think we agree we all want that to change. I think where we disagree is how to achieve that. And in the end that's not going to matter...the administrators of this site have their rules and that's that. I think it's really nice that HP took the time to explain about this particular issue and why we have some of the strict rules that we do.

I confess, I absolutely loathe some of the rules and policies and attitudes here at MTS2. And so I do go other places and so I do upload elsewhere rather than here especially my last bunch of work. But I am finding that the rules I hate so much have often meant that I can rest assured if I download something from MTS2, it's not going to totally eff up my game beyond all redemption. And that the skins will be complete for both genders and most of the ages. Yes, some buggy stuff gets by, but far less often than from other sources that take submissions from everyone. Okay, so that is relevant how??? Well it's relevant in that I have learned that it pays to sit back, take a deep breath, and let the mods and admins here do their evil work and spout off things I totally want to smack them for...because in the end...much as it galls me to say this...MTS2 and its approach kinda sorta do work. And when it doesn't work for me for a given situation....yeah, take my chances at the anything goes kind of places. But understand the risks and live with them.

[summersong86]

Do some research on these projects? Learn something? Honey...I got a three year old holding up a stuffed beanie cat sitting in a little swim floatie...look at this mama. If I want computer time I either have to give up sleep or show my little girl I'm taking a coffee break, like now. I don't post that much anymore because it takes time away from downloading and PLAYING the game, as well as customizing it. But I'm posting here because I'm part of this community, before as a content creator, now as a downloader, same as you. I'm not alone in being like this. We aren't all young folks who are in tune with the "gaming world." Like it or not, you have a lot of rickety old middle aged moms like me who play only this game, know only this game, and know only THIS community.

Yes, okay Felcign, you didn't like the Nighttime Sims artists--so you're going to take that dislike out on innocent people here?

Wow, I can't believe I've posted so much on this. If you knew me and how timid I am, and how hard it is for me to "talk" to people on the internet communities, you'd see this is kind of out of character for me, though not the first time I've put my two cents in on SIms matters. I'm feeling kind of um, spent now. People can pick apart my posts six ways to Sunday and do a better job of it than I could ever do of trying to state my thoughts. So I just will boil it down to two words and politely beg your leave---

Play nice.

[oph3lia]

Heck, I really feel like making soup now :lol:

HP, it's a very well constructed post which I agree with :)

[moune999]

It is encouraging to read the posts who advocate respect for creators and denounce those who violate policies. I think all those of us who make stuff for the game appreciate that.

But I still think we as a community need to find a way to deal with extensive or unreasonable TOU's. I don't know if simply disrespecting them all is the way - just like I'm not sure the booty is the way to deal with paysites (and not a word more about that). However, I do understand why some people get fed up with asking permission for the smallest modifications, linking back to sites that move their meshes around, or trying to keep track of which objects can be included in houses and which ones can't.

Marylou pointed out why it could be necessary to ask to link back to certain complicated stuff that needs updating or constant support. I can see how this applies to hacks and such, but I can't see how it applies to ordinary object and bodyshop meshes. Would somebody explain to me why we as a community should accept the demands for linking back to that kind of meshes?

And would somebody explain to me why it is acceptable that some creators - apparently quite a few - won't let their stuff be shared in houses? Despite the fact that they get credit for their work. Why is that okay? I don't know much about Sims making, but I'm guessing it's the same for Bodyshop cc. Why is it okay that some creators won't let their stuff be shared on Sims?

And why is it acceptable that you have to ask for permission to recolor a mesh - be it object, clothes or hair mesh? Heck, Dincer won't even let his objects be recolored. Why is that acceptable?

Respect for the creator you might say. Yes, but a creator who imposes that kind of policy doesn't show an awful lot of respect for the downloader in the first place, and respect works both ways.

I don't believe the solution is simply to say not to download stuff with extensive TOU's. I don't think it is enough to change things, and I think things could do with a change. This whole 'creator possessiveness' dates back to Sims 1 days and won't go away unless we actively do something to make it go away.

That might mean a certain amount of rules breaking, yes. The question is then what rules we as a community can accept are broken.

When that is said I will stress that I still believe a creator has the right to put reasonable conditions on their creations. And I think the most important one is the demand for credit. I mean, I don't mind giving you the sofa and loveseat I spent hours making, but don't try passing it off as your own. Or to profit from it for that matter (i.e. paysites). That's where my limit is.

[Alisar]

@ MaryLou: it was not about meshes on modded objects I claim my right not to jump from site to site, IF the reason is updating and help to users, in one word: responsability and respect to downloaders. You and Numenor take care for this, just like many other modders who test carefully and give support. But why should I do for hairs and fashion? would they crash my game (it never happened to me)? I am learning now how to use bodyshop and simpe, to recolour clothing and objects etc, so I understand the difficulties of doing things, you modders and meshers have all my respect and admiration! but... why have I to look for no-upload-anywhere bodyshop meshers (I say again I admire creators' creativity and skill) when I can have, for example, the so much creative and talented Nouk for free?

@ felcign: actions say what you are and how you want people behave with you -> if you do not respect anybody (respect doesn't mean to fall prone on feet) you say you do not want any ;

[tiggerypum]

moune999 (and others, this isn't only a response to your post),

It's acceptable that creators can decide on policies for use because -they didn't have to share it at all-

AND I will add that in some of the other communities - like some that share 3D meshes, that there are -also- individual creators terms there - some say do anything, some say only use for renders, etc. And in Second Life, everyone can get paid for their work. OMG! ;) ;) (ignore that 4 letter word beginning with P)

Now you might do what you like privately with their stuff, of course. I don't like Dincer's recolor policy, as an example, although I've not gotten to asking if I might be allowed to do a retexture anyway, sometimes people will allow things that they in general do not if asked nicely. Instead I support those who -do- allow me to recolor when I want to recolor.

Sometimes people fix meshes of objects too, it's not just hacks that sometimes get fixes (and I've fixed some of my clothing meshes also). And others might like to have the chance to see actual feedback/download counts and so on -- which is all taken away when folks start redistributing their work for them. They might also want folks to see -their- recolors, and other related work of theirs. I've listed several reasons without really trying hard, and actually that combination is why I ask people to link to my meshes, rather than redistributing them. Some redistribute my stuff, and I've not made a scene about it - most give me credit, but not always. But I'd prefer a link.

Hate my policies? Go make your own meshes, heck I'll probably even help you; I certainly wrote some tutorials to freely help anyone who wants to put the effort in.

As a creator who has invested time and a sometimes blood sweat and tears (and yet has spent far more time helping others than on my own stuff) I do feel that... creators who have put that time in to learn how to do something and do it well do deserve some level of respect for their wishes regarding their work.

So no, I don't want you to colorslide my legolas outfit that took over 24 hours of my life to build from scratch and redistribute it. Ask me nice, maybe I'll do it. And no, I can't give permission for you to wholesale take textures which I might have - omg - purchased some of the graphics for (yes, I sometimes buy textures from other artists).

While it might seem 'unfair' -- anyone who wants to learn -- can put in the time and do so. And then they can make their own rules about how they want to share their stuff. People buy the game, they buy stuff packs (EA was surprised at how well stuff packs sell, actually!), they can at least make some effort to honor the usually simple agreements that those who provide things for free ask for.

(And yes, I do think creators ought to give some thought to what would be reasonable uses for their stuff and try and accommodate them in their policies - what good is wallpaper if people can't decorate their houses with it)

And Summersong summed it up nicely - "Play Nice." Be nice to each other. A little bit of kindness goes a long way. Personally I get fairly distressed about the demonizing and arguing that has taken over parts of this community.

Just my 5c (this is too long to be 2c worth). Mainly HP said 99% of what I would have said

[TenshiiAkari12]

Ever heard of Morrowind? Lots of Barbies weilding an assortment of sharp and blunt weaponry there. Morrowind characters all have real, meshed clothing. Morrowind towns and houses use 3D models that all need to placed by hand. There are plenty of fashion artists and interior designers amongst that 'community'. The game itself ships with a complete modding toolkit.

The Morrowind community teamed together to develop major projects like:
- Better Faces
- Better Bodies
- Tamriel Rebuilt
- Less Generic Towns
as well as a whole range of associated tools to enable all this. Do some research on these projects. Learn something.

They all suffered the same problems with costs associated with site operations, but I don't recall seeing any off-topic sites developed. They found different ways of managing it.
All in all it was a much more of a community than The Sims or Sims2 communties will ever be and the argument that the Sims community is somehow special just doesn't hold any water. It's just full of egotists.

Thanks to the "artists" that were linked to the old "Nighttime Sims" site, I don't have much respect for any of you.

You artists forget that without people like me to download your crap, it's pretty pointless making it in the first place. I don't see any discussion on how to increase respect for the people who support all this creativity, one way or another.

No-one is forcing you to participate.

:wtf: Hey... you had me up until the point where you generalized EVERYONE just because of one group's actions. Seriously, not everyone, creator or otherwise, is like that with Sims 2. Sure, there's a bunch of divas in the community, but lumping everyone that participates here with anything dealing with "Nighttime Sims" doesn't seem very justifiable or fair to me... sounds more like a prejudice because of that.

Yes, you do raise a few good points on the "community" aspect. Other gaming communities manage to hold their own without resorting to certain types of behavior that is found here in the Sims community as a whole. And yes, no one is forcing any of us to be here. But many of us are still here because we want to be. And just because there's that percentile that gives this community a bad image at times doesn't mean that there aren't people here who want this negative attribute to change one day. This topic was started for the purpose of trying to better such things, and to present ideas and advice on how to do so with a few small steps in the right direction. For someone to say that it's all useless and pointless to even have this for the targeted audiences to see tells me that the same type of attitude you have in your next to last statement, felcign, is the last thing we need when trying to move forward, however fast or slow it may be.

Seriously, you may not care what I or anyone else here has to say, but don't group everyone here as "egoists" because of a certain group that had a bad rap. :|

[moune999]

It's acceptable because -they didn't have to share it at all-

But they always have the choice to stop sharing, don't they? If you (as in generic 'you') believe that there is such a thing as a Sims community (I do, but I'm an old hippie) then you also take the community into consideration when deciding what policies to put on your stuff. If you feel you can't share your creations without an extensive list of conditions and tight control, then maybe you shouldn't really get involved in the community at all. Being part of a community obliges both ways.

(Edit, because I was probably writing while you were editing your post: I completely agree that creators have the right to put conditions on their creations. No doubt about that. I'm asking, though, why some of the more restrictive policies - like no including of meshes, no including in houses, no recoloring etc. - should be seen as acceptable.)


Sometimes people fix meshes of objects too, it's not just hacks that sometimes get fixes (and I've fixed some of my clothing meshes also). And others might like to have the chance to see actual feedback/download counts and so on -- which is all taken away when folks start redistributing their work for them. They might also want folks to see -their- recolors, and other related work of theirs.

Sure, some people sometimes fix meshes, but I think that's a minor issue. If somebody has recolored something from a certain creator, it is reasonable to expect that they'll go back and check the site regularly. And therefore discover the fixed mesh and include it in their download themselves. A general link to the original creators site could also assure that downloaders get the fixed mesh. This would also give the original creator a chance to show off their own recolors and other stuff. There's a big difference between following a link out of curiosity and having to do so to find a mesh.

I won't accept that wanting to keep an eye on download counts is reason enough to forbid the inclusion of meshes. I love to watch that bandwidth meter and click count as much as anyone, but using that as an excuse for putting obstacles in the downloader's way is just pure egoism.


So no, I don't want you to colorslide my legolas outfit that took over 24 hours of my life to build from scratch and redistribute it. Ask me nice, maybe I'll do it. And no, I can't give permission for you to wholesale take textures which I might have - omg - purchased some of the graphics for (yes, I sometimes buy textures from other artists).

I can understand and respect that. I'm not trying to say that everything should be free for all to do. Only that some of the stricter - some might even call them silly - policies should perhaps go. It will make it easier for every one - downloaders and creators alike. And it might make people more TOU friendly, so to speak. If they aren't constantly ticked off by lists of illogical don't-do-this, don't-do-that policies they might actually be more inclined to respect those conditions that remain.

[J. M. Pescado]

I don't believe the solution is simply to say not to download stuff with extensive TOU's. I don't think it is enough to change things, and I think things could do with a change. This whole 'creator possessiveness' dates back to Sims 1 days and won't go away unless we actively do something to make it go away.

That might mean a certain amount of rules breaking, yes. The question is then what rules we as a community can accept are broken.Like The Cheat's motto goes, "No Rule Is Solid.". The COMMUNITY will ultimately accept anything as long as the person breaking the rules is willing to accept being a demon. I have found that if you do it shameless, blatantly, and without apology or equivocation, people will ultimately accept it.

[PollinationTechnician79]

Thanks HP. Well stated. I'm not much of a content creator (attempts have been embarassing and ugly *pouts*), but I do paint and write with skill that took a lot of time and energy to develop. Our creators, who are kind enough to share their creations, deserve better.

[exportdry]

Respect artists terms and conditions.
How hard is it?

Some people don't respect the terms and conditions because there is no serious repercussion if they don't, unless the creator has the ability to take them to court and sue the thief's ass over the matter.
They're not going to be blacklisted or marked in anyway from every sims site where they can upload the stolen goods.

Why people would do this is beyond me unless they have 'beef' with the creator some reason or another.
I mean it really isn't that hard to put the link in your thread with whatever mesh you recoloured.

I guess some people somehow can take pride in claiming the credit for someone elses work.

Artists are generally emotional people and thier moods can be like four seasons in one day.
So eccentric behaviour from creators should be expected.
e.g 'no recolouring or editing of the mesh for upload'

Despite this always ask even if the policies may state 'you cannot do this or you cannot do that'
As I said artists are generally moody and they may go back on thier policies if you show some courtesy and effort.
It isn't hard to ask unless your'e too proud and would rather claim other peoples work as your own.

But at the end of the day as Pescado states. . . . ."No Rule is Solid".

[summersong86]

Like The Cheat's motto goes, "No Rule Is Solid.". The COMMUNITY will ultimately accept anything as long as the person breaking the rules is willing to accept being a demon. I have found that if you do it shameless, blatantly, and without apology or equivocation, people will ultimately accept it.Yes, but with the rules that are currently in place, you won't be doing that here at MTS2, will you? HP didn't say anywhere that the rules are changing, and the rules do currently protect creators terms of service, even conferring protection to people who don't even ask for it. It's just a given that if you post here at MTS2, you'll provide full credit and working links. And that you'll honor known and posted Creators terms.

The violations I'm aware of, are happening on independent sites, and probably things the mods are catching in submissions. HP is just calling attention to the fact it's happening--there are people more brazenly than ever presenting content that violates the creators terms. And letting us know that this behavior IS hurtful. It is disrespectful behavior and it's not changing anything for the better, it's just causing attrition.

And HP is NOT overlooking the downloaders. Yes, by golly it is high time attention was brought to the fact that some creators have really self-defeating terms and community-defeating terms of use. I've been lamenting that since I even became aware you could mod the Sims or Sim2. I'm 41 years old...I remember the early days of the internet when everything was free and clear for the taking and people were just going crazy with creativity...and sometimes just going plain crazy and putting out a lot of crap to weed through. Let's be honest about that...anarchy wasn't all it was cracked up to be. But there was something special to the free environment. Real treasures would erupt from the chaos. Yes, I want to see that spirit come alive here. I'm sick to death of having to replicate every little detail from scratch that I liked on somebody else's work just so I won't step on any toes and get my head chewed off. I'm with you there. Said that already.

So you say we can force change. Well again, we...at least here, are not forcing anything. The rules are what they are. What we can do, is oh for heaven's sake just reread what HP says we can do to make a change. Now you're making me kinda grumpy and it isn't even that time of the month. :lol: (Actually you're not making me grumpy...I really enjoy your posts and I do think you're a pretty smart and sane person when all is said and done).

Yes, it will be a compromise, it will be an adjustment, but it looks like not just for the "divas" after all. ;)

[summersong86]

Oh Crikey, one more thing to point out...it's not just meshes. I used to have quite a lot of sims up here and even a skin set that was uh...what did they call it before...kinda like Picked upload. Featured I think. Anyway, as time has gone by, I have learned a LOT. I had some real amazing breakthroughs this past winter working on something with Vera Marina's input and guidance. Meanwhile Vera had made a sim and modified a skin I made ages ago. Of course she had my blessings on the project. But imagine my horror when I realized it was one of my really early works, and man, let me tell you I can't look at ANY of my earlier work, not even the picked/featured set, without cringing. I know I don't currently have anything up representative of what I can do now, but the difference is big, and when you count that I finally got the confidence to work with Louis/Ren's work and meld it to my own, the results are something I am proud of...for now. And hopefully will get around to posting sometime this century. So even non mesh items sometimes need to be supported or amended. I learned that the hard way. Maybe when I do rebuild my portfolio, I will put up some small terms of use just so some poor soul doesn't get stuck with outdated work when I can offer them better. And I did--I remade the skin Vera got stuck using and have finally recovered from my Windows vista fiasco and my graphics cards disasters and can focus on prepping my stuff for upload.

[moune999]

Like The Cheat's motto goes, "No Rule Is Solid.". The COMMUNITY will ultimately accept anything as long as the person breaking the rules is willing to accept being a demon. I have found that if you do it shameless, blatantly, and without apology or equivocation, people will ultimately accept it.

Well, Pes, I'd never try to stop you from being your usual butthurting self, but maybe the rest of us could work for change in a slightly less course - and dramaprone - way. I don't think you need to be seen as a demon if, for instance, you begin to disregard the rule about not including stuff in houses.


Artists are generally emotional people and thier moods can be like four seasons in one day.
So eccentric behaviour from creators should be expected.
e.g 'no recolouring or editing of the mesh for upload'


You know, I think this is where we go completely wrong. The vast majority of Sims creators are NOT artists, although they may like to think they are.

Being able to make a hack does NOT make you an artist, more a technician. The same thing goes for object making. Anybody who has tried to put a new object together in SimPE will know that it is much more of a technical endeavour than an artistic one. Even creating a mesh has an awful lot of technicality to it. And let's face it. Most of us make our meshes from something we have seen somewhere before. Or we are at least inspired by already existing stuff. This goes for hair and clothes meshes too. And being able to replica an Arne Jacobsen chair or a cool hairstyle in 3D simply does NOT make you an artist.

The ones that actually do the most artistic work are the good recolorers and retexturers - the very ones who are often encumbered by extensive TOU's. For those of us who do the whole thing - meshes, UV maps and all - texturing certainly takes time and effort too, but it isn't half of the work that goes into the finished package.

If anything we should call ourselves artisans.

And just because I'm stubborn I'll ask again: Why is it okay that some creators won't let their stuff be included in houses? I'm not kidding. I am truly wondering. Why should we as a community accept this rule?

[J. M. Pescado]

And just because I'm stubborn I'll ask again: Why is it okay that some creators won't let their stuff be included in houses? I'm not kidding. I am truly wondering. Why should we as a community accept this rule?Well, the creators don't have a choice. The only available common mode of packing a house, the EAxis packager, willfully disregards these wishes and packages everything. I mean, heck, I have very good reasons for explicitly discouraging the packaging of my stuff in houses, but it's not an issue that impacts me personally, and I realize that most people are unable to prevent it. Personally, I would consider it bad practice to include anyone's stuff in a house even if it were allowed, simply because the willy-nilly installation of random objects from houses obscures what the object even is, so when it stops working, nobody knows why their game is broken. But this is for technical reasons, and not faffy artiste reasons.

[Nouk]

In the end everything we put it is always 'beta'. I allow uploading of everything with sims, but if something is broken and I have a fix on my site, it's people's own responsibility to check my site.
Or they can keep duplicating the broken crap mesh and infect everyone with it.
My advice: ALWAYS download meshes from the original site before you include it to a download of your own! ALWAYS!!!
Problem is: how the heck do you know if you downloaded the mesh with a sim, or from the original site?
And as for houses: this rule would be hell, but it is the downloader friendliest you can get! Or is that after all, not actually what we are after...?

[jmtmom]

That "artistic temperament" argument is lame. First of all, it doesn't really apply to Sims modders anyway. If you can paint or sculpt in RL, ok, but otherwise, you're not an artist. I'm not saying it's easy or that modding isn't really creative, but it's a lot easier than taking a blank canvas or lump of clay and turning it into something meaningful. A few meshers and texturers do start from scratch, but the vast majority take bits and pieces of Maxis or other sources of meshes and textures and put them together. There's lots of technical issues, like how to make it look nice without such a high poly count it blows up people's games. People like Tiggerypum and HP are invaluable sources of help in those areas as well as making lots of cool stuff for our games.

I always express my gratitude for the stuff I like and I always credit my sources when I use someone's work in my lame uploads. Believe me, I'm not under any illusion that fiddling with Maxis textures and plopping them on other meshes is art. Honestly, most stuff people upload is well, average. That's why we notice when someone does something better than your average upload.

I'd just like the whole attitude to shift so that when someone is excessively possessive about their stuff, we all think it's odd.

ETA: Like Pescado said, EA's approach is inclusive. Everything is packaged up in houses and sims, so for a modder to say you can't include that makes a lot of bother for both sim/house maker and downloader.

[Nouk]

Artist temperament should not be an excuse. If someone reacts waaaay too extreme and instead of people saying "Back off, punk!", they start 'enabling' them or not saying anything about it, they think they are right doing that.

Simple respect towards another person, just act normally. You don't beg anyone for anything in real life, so don't beg a creator either. Treat them nicely and normally. If they treat you like shit in return, tell them to shove it. There's no reason for it. They're sim fans, you are a sim fan, they are not better than you are.

Normal behaviour is to take notice of what the other person wants, and not only thinking about what you want. If you take the other extreme, and think that even simply asking something is kissing someone's ass and you're gonna do what you want, or if you think that people need to beg you for something before they can have it, and you don't treat people equally, you are just wrong.

[bluetexasbonnie]

Why is it okay that some creators won't let their stuff be included in houses? I'm not kidding. I am truly wondering. Why should we as a community accept this rule?

Moune, I totally agree with that being a silly, counterproductive rule, but to answer your question ... "Why accept?"

Because as a community we should be respectful of our fellow community members -- whether we agree or not. There is an implied agreement when you download to follow the usage restrictions. You show respect for yourself, the creator and other community members by abiding by that agreement -- whether you actually agree it is reasonable or not.

Hopefully, this discussion and the many other related discussions at other forums will move the simming community as a whole to more reasonable TOU in SIMS 3. Typical Sims2 usage policies are more rational than Typical Sims1 policies. There is hope.

[summersong86]

And just because I'm stubborn I'll ask again: Why is it okay that some creators won't let their stuff be included in houses? I'm not kidding. I am truly wondering. Why should we as a community accept this rule?Well maybe now that HP has brought up the opportunity for us to discuss this at long last, maybe the creators who have the restrictive TOU's will sit down and reflect on their policies and change them. I think some of them just never really stopped to step back and think it all the way through and maybe their policies are more of a reaction to having been burned by credit stealing thieves in the past.

Also we have to realize we come from all over the world. The language differences can be really confounding. I have seen far too many terms of use in which the author, clearly trying to reach out to English speakers but lacking the resources, contradicts him/herself throughout so that by the time you get to the end, you come away with the impression the artist doesn't want you to download their stuff at all! :blink: In those cases you know it will be pointless to ask the creator for clarification because the language ability is just lacking on both sides.

And some people, Lord love 'em, are just plain squirrely and we'll never know why. Gotta love them though--a few eccentrics here and there kind of spice things up. And who knows, unbeknownst to any of us, we may be the fruitcake everyone is rolling their eyes at behind our backs. I am sure most, if not all of us have played that role somewhere, at some point in our lives. Some of us, repeatedly...says I sheepishly....and anyone who thinks they haven't is really in love with themselves or the fortunate embodiment of every ideal of every person in every culture and demographic.

Speaking of being an odd duck, I'm way too wordy on this whole topic. I better shut up and get back to sims. I'm starting to annoy myself.

[moune999]

Because as a community we should be respectful of our fellow community members -- whether we agree or not.
I know, Bonnie. And I also know that you, for one, are very consciencious about what you put into your lovely houses.

But I'm trying to provoke some critical thinking here - or a change even without resolving to the total anarchy that others are advocating. Simply saying 'we should always respect creators' wishes' will not change anything. Neither will unquestioningly accepting silly policies. Imagine if it was like that with authorities. Imagine if there were never any demonstrations or strikes. Imagine if everybody just said 'yes, we will do as the government/management/council of elders/whatever dictate'.

And like I've said before I honestly don't think that the creator forbidding inclusion in houses shows very much respect for the community - the community that supports them and encourages them, and who will help them out the day someone 'steals' or 'hi-jacks' one of their creations. I mean, take a look at the Animal Army at Insim. Don't they deserve the respect of all creators?

Incidentially, Nouk is right, when she says that it is people's own responsibility to get any possible fixes. If the average casual downloader got a mesh from your site, there is absolutely no guarantee that three months later when you've fixed the mesh they will come back and discover the new version. Again, the I-sometimes-update-my-meshes argument is not reason enough to forbid recolorers to include your mesh and thus making the downloader jump through another hoop. At least not to me.

[Sophie-David]

Woo! A hot button just got pushed! I value the universal impulse towards human creativity, and I really must say that the definition of art that is emerging here is way too narrow. We devalue our own creative instincts and those of others when we consider otherwise. When we can do something beautiful for the world, even if technically it is lacking in comparison to others - and that will always be the case no matter who you are or what you do - then we have gone a long way towards improving the lives of both ourselves and all those we touch with our work.

Art is something that needs to be implicit in all that we do, it is a matter of respect for both ourselves and the world we live in. Almost everyone will notice, no matter how hungry and desperate they may be (soup kitchens included), that touch of care that is obvious when someone makes a meal that is made with some degree of respect and attention to detail and taste.

There is a destructive, debilitating and self-defeating tendency in our society that says, "I am not good enough, let the pros do it." "Its not worth showing in public, no one's going to like it." "I would take up [you name it], but I don't have the time". "Put on the CD and put that effing guitar away!"

We have become over-professionalized in many areas, and the globalization of cheap media has unfortunately had the effect of crushing the natural creative impulse towards amateur art and entertainment. On the other hand, this very media has also brought an incredibly rich cross-pollination and diversity to the creative process, as well as new opportunities for the artist to reach out with her or his vision.

MTS2 is an example of how good that amateur art can be, and indeed how well it can compare with the efforts of the corporation (the professionals?) that first gave us all that opportunity. Of course it is through the Internet, a global and cheap medium, that this has been accomplished.

If you check the dictionary, yes there are very narrow definitions that somehow class visual or "fine" art as being more exalted then the other forms (of course not including photography as one of the arts), yet here is the primary definition of art from my Canadian Oxford Dictionary (the closest thing we have to a standard for Canadian English)
1a human creative skill or its application. b work exhibiting this So art is simply the application of the creative impulse to the world we live in. Yes, OK, its just a definition. But unfortunately language has a great affect on our thought processes. I would suggest that considering and using our words carefully is one of the many routes towards self-awareness and growth.

So I am suggesting a definition of art that is not nearly as elitist as became popular in the twentieth century. The further you go back in history, the more you see that the word "art" and the underlying concept were applied much more democratically and practically than became the case in recent times.

Returning to this topic, I see most of the creations here as indeed the work of the human creative impulse: they are art, and like any other human effort towards the growth and improvement of oneself and others, are worthy of the highest encouragement and respect.

Yes, of course there are overly restrictive terms of use that are indeed self-defeating of the artistic cycle, which generally does prosper the more openly and freely it is shared. That is the practicality of discussions such as these, that people will hopefully lighten up and become less protective. It is an understandable conservatism. Putting your work out there always feels risky because it is risky. The ego becomes vulnerable to notice and criticism, the same ego that would rather you sit in front of the TV and do nothing, making no waves, having no impact, and certainly making no effort towards change. So of course when you put the ego aside long enough to actually produce something and release it, then it will do its best to subvert your efforts, putting on silly and counter-productive restrictions, acting out as a "prima donna", bullying brat or backwoods lawyer.

On the other hand, some folks will do their best to criticize and tear down, to exploit and disrespect, themselves in deathly fear of their own creative instincts - those wild inner muses - and through control of others attempt to perpetuate their own lingering stagnation. So the ego of the would-be creator, the artist, feels itself justified in being limiting, legalistic, paranoid or bloated, to the detriment of the work.

I suppose that for us all, we need to find a balance between what is encouraging and what goes over the line into being enabling. In the case of my own ego, I have learned to look upon it as a "silly puppy". Its trying its best to learn, but sometimes it goes completely off on the wrong track, or makes a serious - and messy - mistake. As in dealing with puppies, a bit of compassionate humour goes a long way to making life better for all concerned, including the welfare and growth of the puppy. Its own limitations have a certain charm in their predictability and pettiness. Certainly beating it over the head with a two-by-four is going to result in a resentful, poorly adjusted, non-productive and even dangeourous adult. Compassion, and the recognition that we each have our own silly puppies within, will help everyone more in the long run.

[jmtmom]

*Tangent Alert* The problem with too broad an interpretation of art is that it cheapens real artistry. It's not the medium, it's the amount of originality involved. Thus my color sliding, reshaping of maxis textures clearly is not, but Lunar Eclipse's work here: http://www.modthesims2.com/showthread.php?t=262746 is. Lunar Eclipse reshapes sim faces in milkshape and designs textures and meshes from scratch.

There are a few people who do things from scratch in modding for the sims 2, but most take bits and pieces from various sources and combine them together to make a whole. The results are still very pretty, depending on their skill, and they add a lot to the game, but someone who swapped shoes on a Maxis mesh is not on a par with someone who starts with a cylinder in Milkshape and ends with a completely new mesh.

[Sophie-David]

Yes of course there is a question of commitment, involvement, confidence, technique, experience and endurance in artistry, but "real artistry" will not be cheapened by little red shoes, magical or otherwise. To me it is more important to encourage and affirm the efforts of those recolouring their little red shoes - because everyone must start from somewhere - and recognize that the same creative spirit is at work in the greatest masters. That is what takes place here at MTS2, people are encouraged and given the guidance and tools to progress from little red shoes to glowing crystalline masterpieces. I think the community does a wonderful job of doing that.

Also one must remember that the simplest and most direct expression can indeed be the most effective and original. Hence the cannon shots at the end of the 1812 Overture can transform the mundane and even destructive into the lyrical.

There is also the question of the chosen medium, some being apparently simple and some seemingly complex. In this case we may think perhaps of meshing, versus recolouring, versus coding, versus house building, versus something completely out of left field. And yes some folks have the skill to do it all. Yet all contribute in the end to something that can be desirable and meaningful, and artistic. For example, while I play the def, a simple wooden hoop with a mylar skin on it, and someone else plays the grand piano, an incredibly complex work of machinery and well crafted materials, would we want to eliminate defs from the world as being too simple? No one will mistake my def for a grand piano, and no pianist need feel at all insecure that I did not choose their instrument. Yet even in my unaccomplished hands I can assure you that I have at times moved people deeply and touched their lives for the better.

I do not understand how one could evaluate a person, as "not on a par with someone" based on results alone. There is room in this world for a complete spectrum of artistry, and to class the beginning drawings of a child as non-artistic does everyone a disservice. That spirit of play, of being a being an unselfconscious child at work no matter what one's age, is exactly that same pure expression of joy that one perceives and experiences in the most accomplished efforts. We could all use a bit more of that childish spirit, both in our play and in our appreciation. If I'm learning to play the flute I'm a "flutist", its that simple. If I'm learning to fix my car then I'm a mechanic. If I'm learning to be more artistic in any way, then I am being an artist. It is that commitment to the role which in the end makes all the difference. Yes, the Yodaism, "Do or not do, there is no try".

And if my efforts with the flute seem incoherent and unmusical, well at least one may appreciate the master a little more. And at least one's ear may be conditioned to what a flute does, looks and sounds like. Personally I would rather hear a badly played flute than none at all. But OK, not all night when I'm trying to sleep!

With respect, what to you is tangential to me is core. It is respectful to assume that I would not have spent my time in this discourse if I thought otherwise. In labelling my obviously heartfelt and considered words as "tangential" I can at least thank you that you are illustrating the point I am attempting to make.

[Phaenoh]

If you can paint or sculpt in RL, ok, but otherwise, you're not an artist. O.M.G. I totally disagree with you. I can't paint anything worth shit, all my clay pots turn out like blobs, I'm getting a C+ in my drawing class and I still consider myself an artist. The only class I'm doing well at in my art school is the one that deals with DIGITAL ART. Hey, maybe thats why this is my hobby? Oh god, as I was typing this out, I just got my PM telling me that I have become a Featured Creator. Looks like somebody else thinks I'm a half-decent artist too. eep!!

That stuff aside, I hadn't really thought about my policies much. I don't use other peoples work as a base ever, so I've never run across that side of the issues, I don't download much CC and I never upload something that isn't mine, so I don't run into that side either. When I had to sit down and figure out what I wanted my policies to be, I looked at the creators I look up to and just emulated how they did things. Most of them don't want their meshes redistributed, so I went with that.

I actually DO update my things (and put nice little links in my siggy for people to see) so I don't want them going places that won't be updated. I might be a Diva-in-training, I dunno, I don't let anything of mine get got (bad grammar, I know) from any place but my threads right here on MTS2. I love seeing that Downloads bar graph and the downloads count and that number won't go up if people get my stuff elsewhere. I do mostly allow my work as a base as long as the final project only gets uploaded here.

I've got 1337 skills with html and I've had to stop myself a couple of times from making my own site. It would be stupid and pointless. No way would I EVER be able to get the same kind of traffic as MTS2 gets, and how would that ever boost my internet fame? Ok, now I sound shallow, but every creator gets satisfaction for their work SOMEHOW, some creators make you pay for it, some want it recolored a zillion times, some want to see it in stories and movies, and others (like me) just want a little appreciation and to have their name recognized occasionally. I think I'm starting (or started a while ago) to ramble so I'll end this with repeating what a lot of others have already said.

Respect.

[tiggerypum]

Wow, I would not have expected this to turn into an argument about who is an artist or not.

Yes, building meshes, or even modifying them - is a -craft-, a skill, and one that to do it right is frankly, demanding of doing details. And there is also sometimes someone who is good at seeing a -need- and fulfilling it. BUT doing it and having it look good, and picking good textures/making them/etc - also requires an eye for things that frankly, I will call an artistic eye.

But whether someone is a skilled 'artist' or 'craftsman', the ones that stand out usually have put hours into their creations, sometimes days, or months -- and you can tell. Most don't want endless worship - but some sign of a 'thank you' and occasional note of appreciation does indeed make their day. And some respect for their terms of use.

If someone gave you something in RL that you liked, you'd certain show your appreciation, you'd smile, thank them, maybe they'd even see you using it. Out here on the internet, people can't see the others, unless they click thank you, leave a note, etc. Wanting some feedback after working hard on something and then sharing it is not some sort of bad 'egoism' in and of itself. It's normal and healthy. Why give things to someone who doesn't want/like/appreciate them. (and it does take extra effort to package things up for sharing, instead of just keeping them for yourself)

Now some people -can- get overly wrapped up in such things - giving them too much meaning - stressing out over getting 'featured' or not, and so on. (and no Phae, this is not about you). Some can be obsessively demanding or restrictive. And sometimes there's other stresses in the creator's lives that we cannot see that are driving some of the behaviors that we don't appreciate.

It's still no reason to treat a creator badly or not honor their terms. Check terms before downloading - don't like the terms, don't use their stuff. Or drop them a nice note and see if you can get them to relax their terms. If they don't, well with all the stuff that's out there, there really is plenty to choose from. Vote with your fingers, support creators you like.

[jmtmom]

I don't want to hit any nerves here, sorry Phaenoh. I'm also puzzled why my tangent alert comment (which was referring to my ramblings) was upsetting to Sophie-David. I've found that trying to unravel such misunderstandings, usually makes the problem worse, so I'll just say I didn't mean any offense.

I always thank modders and creators for what they make and always credit carefully and give links whenever I use something made by someone else. In my opinion, that should be enough.

[summersong86]

Wow, Sophie-David, you sure are an artist with words! I got a nice warm feeling just reading all you wrote, plus I think it helped me rethink what I think of my own work. I never really considered what I had done (making custom skins and making celeb sims) art. I used to joke about the idea of anyone using parts of my work that it's not as if they are defacing the Mona Lisa. I always just considered myself a gamer--meaning somebody whose primary interest is in playing the game but hating how ugly it looks uncustomized. But when I think about it in the terms you laid out, I guess I have put a lot of creativity and some of myself into what I did. And I like what you said about little kids. My daughter is 3 and I'm amazed when we paint together how she does things and uses brushes and other materials in ways I wouldn't think of, because I've been trained in the conventional use of brushes paint and so forth. Kids have got to probably be the most genuine artists we can run across. And sometimes...even cats--I had this cat (rest her soul) who used to play the piano for hours). LOL! Anyhow, I guess art is to be found where you choose to look for it. Oh poo, I can't express it as well as you did.

Well I'm glad the discussion went off on a tangent. We're all being polite, and I'm getting exposed to points of view I'd never had the time or imagination to entertain before, so off-topic as we've gotten, this has been a really enjoyable and helpful discussion. Not to mention how interesting all the different writing styles are...Phaenoh had me laughing out loud about the art turning out as blobs, yet still was to the point, polite and funny.

Now about what Tiggerypum said...really do we need to bust our butts on a momentous effort to change the community? I'm sure the various artists/modders are aware of their download stats. If they start noticing their work is not being used, despite being of quality, perhaps they can rethink their terms. Meanwhile, going along with the puppy training analogy, we can use POSITIVE reinforcement by always putting in a special thanks statement on our uploads acknowledging the creators whose generous policies enabled the project to come together so smoothly for uploader and downloaders alike.

I did used to train dogs along with my dad in my past life...positive reinforcement does produce more enduring results than threats and punishment...with most dogs. Some dogs won't respond to anything. They are the ones abandoned by their owners, sad to say. Unfortunately, restrictive creators will just reap natural cause and effect if we vote with our download finger rather than rant, rave and crusade. My opinion only, of course. JM Pescado is possibly reading this and laughing his butt off at me. Oh heck, why not--I laugh my butt off at me. Bring it on, babe!

[J. M. Pescado]

I did used to train dogs along with my dad in my past life...positive reinforcement does produce more enduring results than threats and punishment...with most dogs.Unfortunately, people are not dogs. That may work on small children, but I wouldn't really count those as people. PEOPLE only respond to punishment. If a thief is robbing your house, what do you think is going to persuade him to stop? A reward to encourage him not to rob houses, or a bullet to the head? The concept of "positive reinforcement" is nonsense. There are no positive reinforcements. Only friendly and enemy reinforcements. Just remember: Friendly fire, isn't.

If someone insists on being unreasonable, allowing him to get his way simply encourages the behavior. You must crush and stomp him without mercy.

[babyblue1387]

There are a couple of topics that've been brought up that irk the crap out of me: that anyone can create, and that divas fuel the need to create.

No, not everyone can create. People keep saying "if you don't like it, then try it yourself." I tried it myself. Guess what? Not so much! I started off doing recolors, and what did I recolor? Someone else's mesh. I don't think any creator advises a potential creator to start off creating their own mesh. So we recolor someone else's. We feel moderately confident about what we've produced, whether it's stellar or not, because we did "get off our butts and do it ourselves." Having that little confidence, we post, some people download.

After getting moderately good in that, we try our hands at meshing, and here's where a problem could come in: not everyone's good at digital art. Even with the tutorials, no matter how well written, everyone's not going to be able to do it. If everyone could, don't you think they would? Some people know and understand the limits of their creativity, and their technilogical prowess. I tried to mesh, and through a combination of lack of time, not being able to figure out SimPE, the tutorial's SimPE looking vastly different from mine, messing up my game after improperly trying to extract a maxis mesh, and not even wanting to bother with 3D Studio Max, I gave up! Not everyone can create anything, and just because you can doesn't mean that I can. I can write a damn good story, but that doesn't mean you can. I love the Phantom of the Opera, but that doesn't mean you do. I draw like CRAP but that doesn't mean that you do. I'm not all that good with painting things on the computer, but that doesn't mean that you aren't. You agree with that, right? Then it stands to reason that YOU may be good at digital art, or handpainting things in photoshop, or extracting meshes in SimPE, but I'M not. Please, don't expect me to do something just because YOU know how.

And the thing about divas fueling the need/desire to create? For some of the above stated reasons, I have to completely disagree with that. Some people know their limitations; they know what they can and can't do. Just because you saw a restrictive diva and decided to create something doesn't mean the vast majority of others will think or feel the same way. I think I represent the average downloader (but then, don't we all :rolleyes: ). I think the average downloader would rather spend time playing their game than forcing themselves to do something they know they can't do. And for the record, I don't think TOS violations are such blatant and knowing slaps in the face as everyone seems to be making them out to be. I think the majority of people get caught in the moment. When I made my first outfit, I wasn't instantly thinking about what mesh I should use that has a policy I can stand behind. I was thinking about what kind of outfit I'd like to make and what mesh I have in my game that allows me to best make that outfit. They might have uploaded the mesh by accident, or not thought to look at the TOS of the creator. Unless someone points out a possible violation to them, how are they to know? If everyone goes about business as usual while dogging them behind their back, how are they ever to know that they did something wrong? I'm not saying this is the case with everyone, just saying it's probably not always a slap in the face "F- YOU!!!!11!!!111" to creators. Granted, I'm sure that it is with some people. But not all.

Sorry for the long post, but I was really annoyed by this "If I can, so can you" thing. This isn't directed toward any specific person. All "yous" are general.

[Pixelhate]

If someone insists on being unreasonable, allowing him to get his way simply encourages the behavior. You must crush and stomp him without mercy.

Is that what you're asking and waiting for ?

[Phaenoh]

babyblue, I think the point 'I can you can' is only meant to be aimed at the snot-nosed kids saying 'your creations suck' to our good creators. We know that not everyone can create, we aren't asking you to. We just don't want to be told that our hard work isn't worth shit by a kid who can't do any better and hasn't tried. People who have tried (whether they have failed or not) know how hard it is to produce something of quality, and wouldn't dare be that disrespectful.

[Sophie-David]

Babyblue1387, it also annoys me that some creators seem to think they are inherently better than "downloaders". You are absolutely right, not everyone should be expected to create in this particular outlet, there are so many other opportunities out there, and this is but one. The choice, circumstance or aptitude which dissuades a person from creating in this particular medium should not prevent them from expressing themselves about what works and what doesn't, what is beautiful and original and what isn't. Again, it bothers me when some folks seem to think that the opinion of a fellow creator is somehow more valuable than that of the more general audience. Many creators don't actually play the game anyway. You will of course receive a different type of advice depending on the observer's experience, but - gee - we're all in this together!

But I also think that those who typically play the game are being creative too. Some players do in fact post their stories and dramas, but whether or not you do, the Sims 2 happens to be a game that allows for a lot of creativity, personal expression and in some cases healing, just in the playing of it. I miss that now, because I really don't have the time to do both - and also do the several other creative things I am involved in that have little to do with the Sims. We are not all the same, but certainly we are all deserving of respect.

[FennShysa]

I agree with Sophie-David about the definition of art wholeheartedly. It strikes me as egotistical that someone would declare something "not art" just because it's not the kind of art that they do. I think any kind of creative expression is technically art. Art is not limited to painting and sculpture.

As for the creator's terms of use issue, I think they should be respected even if unreasonable. But I do think that creators should have reasonable policies. I myself have been frustrated in the past asking for permission to make a minor alteration to somebody's object so that it could be used as a reward in one of my careers. All that had to be done really was to insert my career's GUID into the object so that it would show up in the career rewards section with my career's icon. I even said the reward version could be posted in the thread for the original object and that I could link to it from my thread. All very reasonable I thought. He denied permission because he said he had spent too much time on it to allow me to make a slight alteration. It had the effect of making me less willing to ask other creators permission for other things, being the rather shy person that I am.

On the other hand, I have to commend Hexameter for letting me use his stuff and even helping me make it work.

[Gododog]

I can't wait for sims3. But I hope Maxis doesn't allow any editing/modding, what so ever!
I wonder, can you live without the sims? Sometimes the answer is easier than you think. ;)

[maybesomethingdunno]

Gododog, EA (sadly, Maxis no longer exists really) knows that customization is the key to The Sim's success. To take away modding and customization, would be taking away its major selling point. They should actually be increasing the level to which someone can edit or mod.

J. M. Pescado's and HP's soup metaphor made me hungry. Sorry, for such an off-topic response. This is a great discussion-starting topic. :)

It is my hope that, if we cannot improve the TS2 community, we can at least build the TS3 community to be the community that we wished we had for TS2.

[bluetexasbonnie]

Certainly if there was no modding/editing possible, it would be extremely easy for me to drop out of the sim world. The game is fun for a short time, but without new things it quickly becomes stale for me.

[tiggerypum]

Babyblue1387,

First of all, some of the folks 'disrespecting' TOS stuff are doing it quite well aware of what they are doing - that is what triggered this post. It's not about single user making a single outfit and sharing it. It's no 'accident'. And actually if the user posted here, they could post their recolor, and link to the mesh in question. (unless it's pay, but that's a different issue) All creators at mts2 deal with that - they need to become aware of where their meshes came from. And the 'issue' would be dealt with during the submission process, it's actually not that difficult.

Secondly, I in no way meant to imply that 'divas should inspire people to make their own stuff'. I certainly far more often said - if you don't like the terms, use someone else's stuff! I also pointed out that yes, 'you' are free to learn. But as you noted, the learning is not always easy or natural -- although you should not assume that it came any -easier- to many of the creators you see. Heck, some folks are arguing that it takes no real special talent/art to be a creator at all. It is my experience though that people assume that creators just whip things out, that it's magically easy for them - not that they spent hours/weeks/months on a project. Sure after a lot of practice, maybe some things are easier. Even so the time was still put in getting up to that skill level. So, the issue is yes, they did the work, give them some credit/respect for having done it. (and actually I think being a good creator is 90% commitment, 10% talent)

Third, this was about being aware of and respecting creator's TOS's. You say you're talented in writing. Now if you posted a story and I went and took it, changed a few words and posted it as my own - would that be right? Personally, I say no. Even if you posted it on the web. Now if you said - go ahead and do whatever with it and don't give me credit, well then okay, I guess - although on MTS2 we still expect credit to be given. Why - because it was someone else's work that was used as the basis. -- And it's that attitude of 'entitlement' that is one of the issues here. People basically saying that giving credit to a creator and following their TOS is unreasonable, and that once something is posted they can do whatever they want.

In summary the key issues are

1) Respect other people's work and try and respect their terms regarding it
2) Sometimes if you're nice you'll get permission for whatever, if you ask the creator (nicely - nice is important)
3) Be aware that terms exist, when you want to create something
4) If you don't like the terms, you can try #2, and you can also FIND OTHER STUFF from creators with terms you like better. Let your fingers/actions speak

[Nouk]

Also: treating another person nicely is normal. It's what you do in your daily life. "Gee I like your dress, can I borrow it some time?" - "Gee I like your mesh, can I edit it?"

Some people say: "I'm not kissing some creators behind to be able to edit their mesh." Resulting in them never asking any creator at all. But people wanting you to lick their behind before you can use it, that is so extremely rare, it's unreasonable to treat every other modder the same. Creators who do that are abnormal.

Also, 'please ask me' is now seen as the same thing as 'having to kiss their diva behind'. Now that is just nonsense.

[cameranutz2]

Wow, this is one hot topic! Just one or two words, well, maybe more, then I'll shut up.

I have tried meshing and I really suck at it so I understand what it takes to create something so incredible that other members of the community want it in their game so they can customize it to share some more. So the rules of the game should be simple and easy to follow.

If a Creator asks for a link back to a recolor of their mesh, just do it. If you have no idea where the mesh came from or can't find it again to save your life - don't post a recolor, it's that simple.

If a Creator asks for the inclusion of a Read Me file then they should provide a file with a title that is directly related to the name of the mesh. I guarantee you 99% of the community clicks No when asked if you want to overwrite an existing "Read Me" file.

For the Creators requesting permission to recolor their meshes. If someone sends you a request to recolor/post one of your meshes, repay the courtesy of having been asked with the common courtesy of an answer, be it Yes or No. It's downright rude to require someone to ask for permission to play with your toys if you're going to ignore their request. If you are way too busy to deal with such requests, just say "NO Relcolors or Redistribution so don't even bother to ask" in your Terms/Policies statement. That way if someone violates your rules, you have every right to raise hell.

Creators should make their policies easy to follow and those of us who enjoy the recolor side of it should stick to the rules, written or unwritten.

Rules and regulations are a part of life. We are all presumably adults and should be able to abide. So we should be able to play nice, enjoy the game, and respect each other's wishes with little effort. :D

With that said, I have to agree with SimMe. I'm glad I only do EA/xis default object recolors! Life is good! :rofl:

[johnetta9]

I'm a builder and I really struggle with crediting everyone. When I know a majority of the custom content I use in a lot I'm uploading comes from a particular source, I definitely give credit, but any lot I upload has way too much content to keep track of and so I don't usually bother paying attention to distributor policies.

One thing that was helpful was the table you linked to. Now, when I have my list of top creators for each lot, I can readily check policies and provide appropriate links. I'm not going to clean the lot or anything, but at least I'll be better able to give credit when it's wanted.

Still, I'm having difficulty completely agreeing with the original post and the many others who have responded in agreement. Part of my disagreement is simply that I do not relate personally to the respect that is being demanded about Sims creations. I get a kick out of posting my houses for download and having others appreciate them. I work for days on construction and go through a fair amount of effort to make the lots as I want them. But I'd make them even if no one else was using them and I'm not sure that I really can work up enough "care" about the downloading and such to create policies about redistribution and giving credit. I don't really know what someone uploading my lots elsewhere and giving me credit does for me in terms of "respect." I don't know anyone who downloads anything of mine, not in a personal way that would make respect or lack of respect particularly important.

And, in a less "I don't personally get that," sort of way, I don't follow the logic of "respect" in an abstract way either. Respect for creations comes when you check your download stats and see that a whole hell of a lot of people got your stuff. I don't know in any other community that I've ever participated in that someone would give you something for free and then tell you how and when to use it and under what circumstances. That's completely rude in real life, actually, and I don't know why it's considered "common decency" in an online community. And I especially don't understand it, given the context of the great "free" vs. "paid" debate. The same rhetoric that pay sites use was used extensively in HP's post about free content. It's moralizing, it's melodramatic, it's hypocritical and, more than anything, it is illogical given the context. Either you think the creations are your property, in which case it makes sense to demand payment for them, or you think they are not your property, in which case, you simply don't get to make up rules about their use, even if they're piddling rules that are meant only to stroke egos.

Bottom line, I respect everyone by downloading their stuff. It looks pretty and delightful in the game. I recommend good places to get stuff all the time. I'm addicted to custom content. And when I remember and when it's logistically possible, I give credit. But trying to follow every individual creator's rules that are completely arbitrary and seem only to be dictated by the level of ego they have invested in the process is a ludicrous requirement that I'll never be bothered to commit to. Either you're creating because you like it or you're creating because it's a business. I simply don't think it's a valid or reasonable expectation that folks should think you're creating because you need "respect," via attribution. That is too sad to even contemplate. I would say that the minute someone starts feeling obligated to create to get respect or they start feeling abused or taken advantaged of is the minute they should stop creating and find another, more rewarding way to build their identity. When I see a website that has closed because the creator moved on or because they stopped thinking it was fun, I'm not completely scandalized or horrified and I don't get some burning desire to call them back into the fold. It makes sense to me and quite honestly, I hope that anyone else who feels that way would do the same.

[Phaenoh]

And, in a less "I don't personally get that," sort of way, I don't follow the logic of "respect" in an abstract way either. Respect for creations comes when you check your download stats and see that a whole hell of a lot of people got your stuff. I don't know in any other community that I've ever participated in that someone would give you something for free and then tell you how and when to use it and under what circumstances. That's completely rude in real life, actually, and I don't know why it's considered "common decency" in an online community.
I disagree. With almost everything you have said.

I do building too, and its obvious that there are ZILLIONS of ways to build and furnish houses. It seems ludicrous to me that since you KNOW you build and upload lots with CC why you would download something (cuz you are going to end up using it somewhere) that the original creator doesn't want included in lots.

Respect for creations does not come from people downloading it. That just means that it was popular. Did you have much 'respect' for the 'popular' kids at school? Maybe, maybe not. Those two don't have anything to do with each other. Respect comes from admiration. You gain respect from being a kind, decent person. Thanking people for downloading or leaving comments, and answering help posts or PMs politely and helpfully, those types of things. There are a few of our great creators on this site who I have no respect for because they have been rude to me, but their downloads are far more popular than my are. I don't care.

There are plenty of real life situations where the giver dictates the conditions. Your aunt sends you a gift card to Barnes and Nobles instead of cash because she wants you to read more. You go over to a friends house and they invite you in but they ask you to take off your shoes. Your parents say you can stay out later as long as you call home and check in every 2 hours. You get birthday presents from your grandparents but your parents make you write a Thank You note. Plenty of things are given on conditions. Ever heard of the idiom 'No such thing as a free lunch'? Nothing is free of strings, why should these be an exception? Now, all of these examples are of REASONABLE conditions. If a creator also has reasonable conditions, what is so hard with following them? Thinking enough of the creator and their hard work to follow their wishes is the respect we are talking about. If a creator has 'unreasonable' conditions, then show that creator whats what by not downloading their creations, or kindly let them know. If they tell you to shove it, then you should have enough decency to be the bigger person and move on. This is where many people turn to piracy and policy violations. This is why its disrespectful.

I've created objects too, and I don't want any of them being included with lots (yanking them out with CleanInstaller is fine with me) because I try to update and fix my things as I grow and learn. I want people to have the most up to date working object of mine that they can get, I don't want people thinking I make crappy things if they got an unupdated object of mine from a lot builder. I don't post things until they are as good as I know I can get them, but then something from another project later teaches you something new and you go back to it to dust it off and make it shinier. Everyone has reasons for things. If you never plan on ever revisiting something, why not let the lot builders have it if they feel that it is good enough to be part of 'their creations'?

Everyone has their reasons, if you care enough to ask. If their reason is 'because I'm amazing' it really sounds more like 'I'm afraid to let anyone else make something that will shine brighter than mine'. These people need to reevaluate and we need to be patient with them until they do. Until a creator does something blatantly rude, I will be patient with them. When they do that, I'll turn my back on them and not look back. I don't need it.

I'm having a lot of fun with this. :Pint: Though I'll prolly end up running my mouth too much and getting myself in trouble. :|

[exportdry]

In summary the key issues are

1) Respect other people's work and try and respect their terms regarding it
2) Sometimes if you're nice you'll get permission for whatever, if you ask the creator (nicely - nice is important)
3) Be aware that terms exist, when you want to create something
4) If you don't like the terms, you can try #2, and you can also FIND OTHER STUFF from creators with terms you like better. Let your fingers/actions speak

Thankyou Tig for summarizing the thread in short.
I think some people are too lazy to read the whole thread, get bored, then pick a sentence out of a post they want to debate (argue) over.

I'll somewhat summarize my last post for those who decided to go off topic and talk about the definition of an artist in thier opinion which reads out more as a statement:-
My last post was stating my interpretation of the personality of some creators, which I refer to as having an 'artists personality' which can be 'moody' so what thier terms and conditions read may change if you ask them regardless of what was written.
I think some of the females refer these creators to 'divas' if I'm correct, possibly guys, shouldn't generalize. . . .

I was also stating people will break terms and conditions of creators because nothing seriously bad going to happen if they do.
They're not going to get hit in the pocket or be marked as a person who doesn't follow creators wishes within every sims site on the net.

If your'e not talking about the thread title, please don't post even if an arguement or debate is all you want because you're bored and lonely. :rolleyes:

Like our clever Nouk says lets all be friendly and most of all keep on the thread topic.

[J. M. Pescado]

I call socktroll.

[Saraswati5]

And a hysterically funny socktroll at that.

I am flabbergasted by some of the arguments I'm getting here "I can't do it so you should let me do whatever I like with your stuff". It makes the people who are posing that argument sound very much like twelve year olds. Myself and a whole lot of others have busted our absolute rears to give you plenty of tools to learn everything you chose to learn. Guess what? It isn't easy. It's hard work. It's sometimes frustrating. Every single person who does persist in learning how to create does it the hard way and encounters a lot of roadblocks as they do. Every single time I see posts like this I get reminded of some of the people who ask obvious and silly questions when I used to post tutes. Very often their answers were right in front of their faces if they took two seconds and had a bit of a look.

I didn't have my Gimp tutes when I was learning to create, or Faylen's tutes or HP's face tutes. We had to figure it out ourselves the hard way. I wrote those tutes so that people could learn to create without worrying about spending huge amounts of cash, but sometimes when I see the attitudes of automatic entitlement on places like here, I regret writing them.

The bottom line is, you either learn to create or you don't. Not learning to create or not feeling capable of it or having the persistance to stick it out does not give you the right to do whatever you like with other people's stuff. Assuming you have the right just makes you look like a child.

And I still would like to see people move towards more open sharing policies, it would make this a much healthier community.

[jmtmom]

I'd like to help get back on topic by pointing out again that EA has set up a system that everything is included when you upload a sim or house. All meshes, recolors, make-up skintones, etc. I'm more familiar with sims, don't do houses, but I imagine it's much the same.

If a given creator has the policy that meshes cannot be included, this gives the sim/house builder the following choices.

1. Don't use the content. This results in nothing for the content creator: no links, no thanks.

2. Jump through hoops to remove the content, post the incomplete sim or house with links. This is inconvenient for both the uploader and the downloader. Now rather than exploring the content creator's other creations, it becomes a hunt and an annoyance.

3. Use it any way in spite of the creators wishes.

So not allowing meshes is really counter-productive. If a link and credit is provided along with the mesh, many people will follow it. They'll discover more content and give all kinds of thanks, praise, etc. They'll also find any updates that exist.


Louis/Ren of Sim Cribbing has the freest policy of anyone I know about. Think about what's been done based on her skintones. Everyone has heard of her and almost everyone has something based on what she made in their game. No one could ever post her skintones and say "look what I made". Everyone would know what a liar they are. There's no reason not to credit and link her.

Warlokk has a very open policy regarding his meshes. He provides poser magnets for people to build on. There have been many new body shapes, detailed feet added, recolors galore. Just think about what's available for the Ren Gal that wouldn't be if he hadn't taken that approach?

Another item to consider. A while back, I made a plantsim skintone. In my first version, I recolored some Sussi make-up and used it on the face. Since I'm anal about credit, I credited her. It was rejected for violating her policies, even though she left the community to focus on her baby and I doubt she cares. I could have not mentioned that I used the make-up. I really doubt anyone would have noticed. How counter-productive is that?

[Delphy]

If, MFC, TSR is for the community then ask yourself - how many tools where developed by people at TSR? How many tutorials do TSR have about how to do the good stuff? Did anybody at TSR actually help with the file formats, or with SimPE? The answer is, pretty much "None, hardly any and, nope".

MTS2 has never been "equal" - we have a moderation queue, we reject a lot of stuff, we have actual guidelines and rules and don't just allow any old stuff to be uploaded like other sites. Everybody who uploads knows this, as do people who download. Some people don't like it - some do.

Just becuase MTS2 is strict (and in all honesty, it always has been strict and a dictatorship) for specific rules (which you came across) does not have anything to do with this discussion, nor is it "the truth" nor is it really relevant. As you said yourself - life isn't fair, so keep your personal opinions to yourself please.

Thank you :)

[sare_sare]

Wow that was long but very very true. MTS2 has always been great at making people provide credit when it's due and it's sad to see that people won't take the few seconds (or few minutes if you're on dial-up like me :)) to credit the amazing creators who have helped in one way or another.
Creators do need to re-read their policies after reading this and I plan on doing this too. I've seen my stuff that has been slightly tweeked and claimed as someone elses (they even put "copyright" on it ironically) and I realize how irritating it can be. It is not worth the blowup and hissy fit. There needs to be a mutal understanding/respect between creators and downloaders. I do believe a lot of creators should rethink their policies after reading this.

[exportdry]

The bottom line is, you either learn to create or you don't. Not learning to create or not feeling capable of it or having the persistance to stick it out does not give you the right to do whatever you like with other people's stuff. Assuming you have the right just makes you look like a child.

This kind of childish attitude is what's causing some of this issue.
These are the type of people who can't really say to themselves 'you can do it!'
Okay sometimes it feels like there is no point to recreating a mesh because the current mesh being used cannot be improved upon or the improvement will be too small to even be worth uploading.
This is where the realization should come in of either not including the mesh/CC and find something else (talking about lots) to put in it's place, or at worst don't upload it.

I personally make meshes for my GF's use primarily, uploading is always an after thought.

[stressmagnet]

I totally agree with HP's post as well as Phaenoh's. Oh and Tigg's. Meshing is hard, and credit should be given.

[babyblue1387]

Maybe if creators explained why they have the policies they do, people would react more positively. Maybe all this "don't don't don't" is just really frustrating. Instead of saying "don't include the mesh" the creator said "I plan on updating this when I get my new rendering program, but I just wanted to share now. Updates will only be posted on my site," people would, generally, respond better.

Tiggerypum, I was in no way trying to assert that everyone doing this was innocent. I know of a few cases where people were contacted about such a violation and were rude in response. There's no excuse for that, and I'm not sticking up for those people. Let's say (random percentage) 8 in 20 uploads violated someone's terms of service. 3 of those might be blatant stealing, but I'm willing to believe that not ALL 8 of them were a blatant slap in the face. And of those 3, maybe 2 will be polite enough to fix the problem when contacted.

[jmtmom]

I don't think anyone is arguing about giving credit. No one should ever claim someone else's work as their own or use someone's texture or mesh as a part of what they make without a link and credit.

[PegasusDiana]

While I agree 110 percent with what HP said...I think a lot of this has stemmed from the fact too many felt it was perfectly ok to do it to Paysites. We may not like what they're doing, or agree with it. But they work just as hard on their creations. Instead of using the proper channels, banning together to just not use those sites. People felt it was ok to do whatever they like with their things. Yet, many while feeling it was ok to do whatever they wanted with paysite things, didn't think it was right to do it to freesites. There are many paysites that get overlooked in donations. That aren't in it just for the money. That give plenty of free things to the community. Numenor. Sandy from Around the Sims 2. Liana always cycles out her things and let's people upload her meshes with things they create. Holy Simoly has had the same three donation packs since they opened, etc. They shouldn't have to pay for our enjoyment either, and if you go to Alexa.com some of them have much higher traffic then a lot of the bigger sites. More page views, downloads, etc...Many of these sites get lost in the shuffle when it comes to donations. Some are in it for the money and I would never support those sites. But when we say it's ok to do it to one group of people, but not the other....I think we opened a can of worms. There are those that see no difference at all. And unlike some of the other posters here, I'm not going to pretend like it's just the children in the community doing it. There are many adults doing it. I will never disrespect any creator free or pay. I personally have just choosen not to support those sites that I know are in it just for the money or for trying to make a living off it. Thank you HP for a much needed post.

[Rapsheba555]

heh, I'm guessing I'm the one you're referring to when you say "do not use my content in adult uploads?" If not, it still stands. I find the idea of my creations being used in an adult story very offending, as it invariably ties me to that story. Which i find offensive. I find it extremely offensive as well if you have the gall to repost my work as your own, or without my permission. I recently had this issue with a person on another site, who I won't name, and I chewed them out for it and got them banned by the site. Which was fair, as that was piracy, which is ILLEGAL BY LAW in the US. I won't change my policy to accomodate a downloader. If you don't like my policy, don't download my stuff, i don't care. there will always be someone who DOES respect my policy, and will download.

[summersong86]

[QUOTE=FennShysa]. I myself have been frustrated in the past asking for permission to make a minor alteration to somebody's object... All very reasonable I thought. He denied permission because he said he had spent too much time on it to allow me to make a slight alteration. It had the effect of making me less willing to ask other creators permission for other things, being the rather shy person that I am.
QUOTE] Yep, that's EXACTLY what happened to me! I'm shy, too, in that way. I'm so glad to learn somebody else has felt the same way--not that I'm happy that such a thing happened to you...it's just now I feel less self conscious about my own shyness.

I still can not approach other artists to ask permission to alter their works. I just feel, I don't know...intrusive? Maybe that's not the right word...I don't know but it's close. If the ability to alter is not already out in their stated policy, I just don't do it and find some way to make I guess you would call it a "designer knock-off." I have recently made an Angelina Jolie sim that is an example of that. Even, that I am worried will offend an artist and get accusations of stealing or just get people mad I ripped off a technique or got the same effect they did.

So anyway, anybody who thinks I don't totally support the effort to get people to lighten up on their policies could not be more wrong. I have heavy demands on my time and energy same as most people here. Like others, I sacrifice a lot to make the paltry output I've managed to make--and I do also play the game--I often do towns themed on sims by my favorite sim makers. Right now I'm doing celebrity beach resort town. ANY relief in the form of generous policies would be more than welcome.

[summersong86]

But JMPescado--if people are not dogs, well then they are not also all thieves trying to break into my house. Honey, yes...I would certainly kill somebody who tries to rob my house and threaten the safety of my family. I grew up on a street where drug dealers took over in the late 1980's until my dad ran them out in the late 1990's--my dad is former military and one mean dangerous SOB, and thanks to a scary stint in Viet Nam, a little bit squirrelly, too, in his fearlesslness. So while I am shy and timid--socially, I do have boundaries and if you cross them you will get your butt handed to you, courtesy of what my dad taught me...and my mom, too...she's had a hard life is actually more scary than my dad, for real...I'm not joking. That's one of the reasons I'm socially timid--to balance out my two hellion parents.

As regards dealing with thugs and thieves and would-be abductors, I have some harrowing tales of success I could relate but this isn't exactly the place for that. I'm out of that place now, out of that life, and I don't care to revisit all the fond old memories... :wtf:

So, I do understand where you come from with your harsh world view and take-no-prisoners mentality. I've lived that on a daily basis and if anyone understands the use of force and its results, I do. But there's a time and a place for everything and a cordial online community of people dedicated to sharing their creations to enhance the enjoyment of a GAME is NOT the place to talk about beating people into submission.

If you have even half the intelligence I originally credited you with, then you would be more discerning about when, where and how you wield your cudgel, mate.

[summersong86]

I won't change my policy to accomodate a downloader. If you don't like my policy, don't download my stuff, i don't care. there will always be someone who DOES respect my policy, and will download.

Speaking of your policy...out of curiosity I clicked on the link to read them. Okay, first please do people a huge favor and put your terms in plain black text on a nice plain contrasting background. It was really hard to make out the words on the graphic that your terms are printed on. :blink:

Wow, you do make some beautiful custom content. Absolutely gorgeous! Sadly, no, I am afraid to download your content because when I photograph my Sims for upload this week, I may accidently include your content or forget that I am posing my sim in one of your houses and forget to credit you in my post. I do subfolder my downloads but sometimes identifying what belongs to whom in screen shots is just impossible. Especially when my focus is on a Sim and not the backdrop.

But you're content with some people not downloading your work because somebody surely will. That's fine, though I heartily disagree with your policy, I will support your right to have it.

However, what purpose does it serve you to have a policy that would discourage ethical, honest peers from touching your work at all for fear of ACCIDENTLY offending you? What do you get out of it? As Jmtmom pointed out, Ren and others have very open free policies and do not lack for recognition and respect in legitimate orderly communities where recognition truly means something.

That surely has to make up for the handful of people --most certainly not your peers---who would be so ignorant as to willfully rip you off. As for what happens over at the Exchange or other lawless wildernesses--we should all do ourselves a favor and just ignore such places. That's just an alternate universe and nothing means anything over because it is just complete chaos and a total free for all. I wouldn't believe any credit listing I would see claimed over there or any other site that has very lax rules of operation. The only place where I trust the credits are here and InSim (which has more relaxed rules but still has rules and peers who look out for one another). And maybe a handful of other places that haven't fallen for an anything goes policy.

And why care about people who are not ethical? They have to live with the face staring back at them in the mirror. Ignore them for the inconsequential beings they are. The only opinions I care about come from the people I respect for their character, morals and how they treat their comrades. I don't waste one iota of energy fretting about what trash does. And I hate to see talented, creative people such as yourself restricting access and usage of your beautiful work mainly in an attempt to stave off the abuses of people who don't give a rat's tail about policies anyway and will rip you off regardless. You are really inconveniencing only the good honest people whose approval and friendship should matter to you. People who truly respect your art will take such pride in what you've done that they will brag about your work for you. And if you really are an artist, then your style will speak for you and it won't matter if your creator name is on your work or not--people will recognize it. Just like they do with Ren's work.

Sorry don't feel I'm attacking you. I'm just hoping you'll reconsider your policy because your stuff really is soo tempting!

[HystericalParoxysm]

johnetta9 - I'm not asking for people to stroke creators' egos and you bet your butt I like seeing a high thanks count.

It's not respect via attribution, but simply having the decency to give credit where it's due. If I spend 12 hours working on a lovely texture, and you change it around a little bit and post it, the least you can do is say that I made the original. Yes, I create because I like creating - and I share because I like seeing people use my work. I also have rather open policies allowing people to use my stuff pretty much as they please because I think people should, well, be able to do that. My stuff is clearly labelled as mine, I'm easy to find in a Google search for any of the things I tag my stuff with, and it's really not to hard to type demusedsims.com or hystericalparoxysm.modthesims2.com (spelling of my name aside - that's why I got demusedsims, actually). I think it'd be damn rude of someone to, say, recolour one of my skintones - which I spent countless hours working on - and then just say that they made the whole thing themselves. Yes, this is a hobby and it should be fun but the amount of effort it takes to give someone a little link and credit if you're sharing or modifying something of theirs is nominal. I'm certainly not a fan of over-restrictive policies, and I think creators go with something nice and open that allows people to use their work freely.


Rapsheba - I'll agree with summersong on the above - especially the bit about doing your policies in a plain font on a contrasting background. Also, offering a plain text version would be helpful - I do mine in a txt file linked under my pic. :)

The adult content thing was not toward you - I don't see that in your policies anyway.

But I don't understand why you would not allow people to just use your stuff in pictures/movies/stories in general without credit. If someone sees a pic/movie/story and they see a piece of content they want, they'll ask and the pic/movie/story creator can look in their game and tell them then - or there's the Where Can I Find area at S2C where people can ask where something is from... so if someone wants your content based on a pic/movie/story then they can easily find it with just a bit of asking around... And I know very well how much time and effort it takes to create so if it's about that and wanting credit for your effort, well, I get that... but at the same time you really have to put yourself in the shoes of a person making a story or a movie or taking pics of their sims... Just in a single picture you may have -dozens- of custom items... the walls, the floors, the living room set in the background, the windows and doors, the sim's hair, eyes, skin, freckles, eyeshadow, eyeliner, accessories... What if -every- creator of custom items asked for links and credit if their stuff was used for anything like that? It would take forever to put together those kinds of lists if you could even track down everything at all, they'd be -huge- lists for even the most basic of things... and it would strongly discourage people from even bothering posting their pics/movies/stories with any custom content if they had to do that every time.

Certainly, wanting a link and credit if someone wants to do recolours or something is understandable as they're actually uploading something of yours to share with others - they are redistributing some part of something that is yours... But I'm not sure why you would basically discourage people so strongly from using your work in basic things where they're only showing it off and not sharing it so others can use it... I think it's too much to ask of downloaders to link back for such a simple, basic, non-harmful usage... why not just get excited when you see someone has liked your stuff enough to put it in pics/movies/stories? It's not like you won't recognize it... and I know how much it makes me gleeful to see my work used around the community - I read sim stories and read the Sim Pictures threads on S2C and get a little smile every time I see my skin or hair or suchlike come up on a sim...

I don't intend to attack you either and I'm not demanding you change by any stretch, but I guess I just don't understand why someone would have such a restrictive policy that discourages people from using their stuff.

[micciduck]

To HP. Well written. I truly believe in respecting the people who make this game so enjoyable to play. I also think that if someone can't spend less than a minute to show their respect to fellow creators, they shouldn't be changing other peoples work. I don't make content for the sims but I can tell you that for me the custom content makes the game. I write and draw and I can tell you from personal experience that when someone passes off your work as their own, it is a personal affront. I love this game and the wonderful creators who make it what it is, and it would be such a shame if they were driven away by peoples' insensitivity. Please give respect and credit where it is due, so that we can all enjoy this game for a long time to come.

M.

[Pixelhate]

To Rapsheba : An ultra restrictive policy can be, in a way, provocative and push people to do the contrary, especialy if there's no real risk for them.
Speaking of provocation, you use pictures of copyrighted characters to promote your stuff, but I don't see any credits...

[Saraswati5]

Rapsheba, sorry hun but your terms picture loads in my PC like a slow-moving behemoth. You need to give some consideration to just putting it as text on your page. It will be easier to read.

And that's fine if you want to keep your stuff restrictive. You'll just stay a niche market. Your loss. And I'd never do it, but there are enough perverse people in the Sims community who will turn round and share your stuff somewhere like the exchange that all you will give yourself is ulcers in the end. But again, your loss.

[jmtmom]

I understand why people don't want their stuff in situations they find offensive. I feel the same way and used to have a "no porn" policy. However, I realized that it probably made me more of a target that way and I certainly didn't want to spend time checking out sites I find offensive to see if anyone violated those terms. If I ever became aware of someone using something I made in a way I found offensive, I would probably ask them to stop, but I realize I have no power to make them. If I ever found anything involving child porn though, it would be all out war.

[gglibertine]

Well said. I have to admit that I'm guilty of the occasional violation of this; I've posted recolors of pay items on one site, but didn't include the meshes -- the way I see it, they're useless to anyone who didn't pay for the mesh anyway, so there's not much harm in it from my POV.

Still, I probably shouldn't have done that. It's just frustrating when you're paying for a really great mesh with several really bad recolors. I always end up recoloring them for my own use anyway, and I know other people will too, so it's hard to resist the logic that says "in that case, why not just post the recolors"?

I'm probably going straight to hell.

let's say, I want to create a specific fantasy sim for my own game. I download skins, eyes, clothes, etc, but the eye needs to be very specific, and I don't find a perfect fit anywhere. There is an alien eye, though, that could be the perfect base - only the creator is not allowing modifications of their textures.

I had this exact problem, so identical that I wonder if it was the same creator. All I'd done to the alien eye for my own use was change the color of the sclera. When I wanted to upload the sim, I asked permission to distribute the recolored eye, and she said no and suggested I use her sclera mask, which was much too white for my purpose. Then she suggested I use the alpha from her sclera mask and make a recolor. (Which didn't look right either.)

Huh? And what makes that different from recoloring the sclera on the eye in the first place? Absurd. Just absurd. It's her right, but it left me feeling quite resentful of that creator.

I ended up making my own eye, but it's not as good. Though it's similar enough to hers that I wouldn't be surprised if she complained. But what was I supposed to do? That's what his eyes were supposed to look like.

*sigh*

[moune999]

I'm glad others are also saying what I've been trying to point out earlier (although maybe not very clearly): That as creators we shoot ourselves in the foot by condoning restrictive TOU's and simply repeating the 'creators' wishes should be respected' mantra no matter what. People ARE ticked off by unreasonable policies and some DO react by simply disregarding everything and doing whatever they want. That hurts all of us - even those of us who ask for nothing but credit and a link.

I've created objects too, and I don't want any of them being included with lots (yanking them out with CleanInstaller is fine with me) because I try to update and fix my things as I grow and learn. I want people to have the most up to date working object of mine that they can get, I don't want people thinking I make crappy things if they got an unupdated object of mine from a lot builder. I don't post things until they are as good as I know I can get them, but then something from another project later teaches you something new and you go back to it to dust it off and make it shinier. Everyone has reasons for things. If you never plan on ever revisiting something, why not let the lot builders have it if they feel that it is good enough to be part of 'their creations'?
Because it is completely unrealistic to think that anybody will actually get the updated or improved object. People are not going to come back every two months or so to check if you've made a new version. Unless there is a specific reason for it - if your object is buggy or if it needs to be updated for a new EP like tubs for Pets or fridges for Seasons. Heck, most people won't even notice if you've moved a few vertices around or added a more detailed texture map.

In short I have still not heard any good reasons why any of the following are reasonable and acceptable conditions to put on your creations (And like mentioned above I'm not buying the 'respect' argument. I want real, practical reasons):

* No including in houses/sims.

* No including of meshes with recolors.

* No recolors without asking for permission first.

* No recolors at all.

I would honestly find it difficult to sympathize much with any creator who asks any of that and then has their TOU violated.

By the way: Only talking about ordinary non-hacked stuff that requires no special support - which is what most cc is.

[summersong86]

Well said. I have to admit that I'm guilty of the occasional violation of this; I've posted recolors of pay items on one site, but didn't include the meshes -- the way I see it, they're useless to anyone who didn't pay for the mesh anyway, so there's not much harm in it from my POV.

Still, I probably shouldn't have done that. It's just frustrating when you're paying for a really great mesh with several really bad recolors. I always end up recoloring them for my own use anyway, and I know other people will too, so it's hard to resist the logic that says "in that case, why not just post the recolors"?

I'm probably going straight to hell.




*sigh* :lol: No, you won't but I know some terms of service will make you feel that you will! That's another pet peeve of mine--the terms of service that are rudely and harshly worded to make you out to be a criminal for even wanting to alter so much as a pixel of their work. You know what I mean, the TOS's that are worded as if the artist believes everyone is a talentless thief and guilty until proven innocent.

Courtesy does go both ways and it is no more right for an artist to be condescending and disrespectful of the "unwashed masses" of downloaders (as some seem to see their target audience) as it is for a downloader to view all creators as egocentric divas who deserve to get taken down a few pegs.

I'm an odd duck in that I actually encourage people to take my full sims and improve them and repost them. I love to see people take my work to a higher level than I could achieve. One of my favorite sims is the Buffy Sim over at InSim (done with full acknowledgement to me) that was based off of my Buffy and resculpted. I was actually able to take a break from trying to update my own work because the other artist's Buffy was so well done and has made so many people happy, including myself. I was so proud of and appreciative of what the other artist did with my work I could just float!

I'm in this only because the unmodded game is so darned fugly ugly and so unplayable without the hacks, mods, and customized content. If I never get another word of thanks, acknowledgement or credit ever again, I don't care, so long as I know I've helped even a little bit to make the game less oogly ugly. So far crying out loud--please, steal my work and make it better. I'll download it and grin from ear to ear! :D Okay, now I gotta shut up and go work on putting stuff up for people to steal. I have some stuff over at InSim to steal and soon I will rebuild my portfolio here. Steal it! Steal it! Just be sure to let me steal back your improvements! :lol:

Even if Sims2 had been pretty right out of the box, I'll always want those personal touches you folks add to your modding work.

[GC1CEO]

Not much of a creator, only done a few lots and no custom content.

However, I was thinking that one of the solutions to the entire community might be to take a page from the policies used for software or music such as Creative Commons License, GNU, etc. Establish either one standard, or maybe a couple for that matter, that many (or if possible, most) of the major TS2 sites are willing to adopt universally and try and convince creators to sign onto these "universal" ToUs.

However nobody is going to use these, if there isn't some kind of incentive to do so.

One suggestion might be that there is a search option to block those who don't click something saying they are using these kinds of ToU so you can completely ignore creators who have really unreasonable ToUs. It'd be very easy to implement into the current system, just have a row of options for which ToUs you accept. There could be links to the ones you accept on the download's page so you wouldn't even have to write out your own ToU anymore.

It seems the vast majority of ToU tend to follow similar terms so establishing a series of ToU standards wouldn't be too difficult.

[earth2luna]

I must agree with you babyblue.
I had a mild stroke a few years ago, which effected my communications skills, reading, speaking. It took my about a year to talk and read again, yet I still have challanges with comprehension, say, reading a tutorial from someone and applying it.
So no, not everyone can create that way. I'm pretty sure that most folks here, never consider that aspect.

[GC1CEO]

I like to learn how to create, unforunately my biggest impetus is I'm not an artist of any sort. I can only go so far on what I can do. I couldn't draw a stick figure if I tried. I have played a bit with recoloring for clothing but thats about it.. besides building lots of course.

[Phaenoh]

However, I was thinking that one of the solutions to the entire community might be to take a page from the policies used for software or music such as Creative Commons License, GNU, etc. Establish either one standard, or maybe a couple for that matter, that many (or if possible, most) of the major TS2 sites are willing to adopt universally and try and convince creators to sign onto these "universal" ToUs.

It seems the vast majority of ToU tend to follow similar terms so establishing a series of ToU standards wouldn't be too difficult. This might have some merit to it, but I'm pretty sure that it would have to be more than one, but I'm sure we could get away with no more than three.

I like to learn how to create, unfortunately my biggest impetus is I'm not an artist of any sort. I can only go so far on what I can do. I couldn't draw a stick figure if I tried. I have played a bit with recoloring for clothing but thats about it.. besides building lots of course. Don't sell yourself short! Building lots is an art too, have you seen what gets thrown up on the exchange? If everyone could 'build' no one would bother downloading them.

[Saraswati5]

I must agree with you babyblue.
I had a mild stroke a few years ago, which effected my communications skills, reading, speaking. It took my about a year to talk and read again, yet I still have challanges with comprehension, say, reading a tutorial from someone and applying it.
So no, not everyone can create that way. I'm pretty sure that most folks here, never consider that aspect.
earth2luna one of the ladies on my home site had a bad accident at one point which played hell with her memory, so she's only been able to learn some things.. but she did spend time with myself and someone else and learned to create the most beautiful walls you've ever seen in your life. The trick is finding people who have faith in you while you get one technique at a time under your belt. Plus my tutes are dead easy to the point that most people can do them ;-) The trick is to just follow the steps repetitively til they make sense to you.

And GC1 I think three or four common TOU's would probably be very helpful. Less confusing for everyone.

[kalamity_katie]

Very good, the way you presented these issues! I agree with you, both as a creator and a download junkie. ;) I spend a lot of time on my stuff to make it look as nice as I can, I don't have the dinero to get set up for meshing, so I usually use Maxis meshes for recolors and lots that I want to upload, that way I know I won't step on any toes, which I am always afraid of doing. On the occasion that I do want to use a particular mesh or object that is custom made, I always make sure to check the policy and sometimes even pester the creator by pm'ing them if I have any doubt at all. It's just common courtesy and manners! Especially if you want to upload or share it in any shape, form or matter! Thanks for sharing this with all of us, I hope people read this and learn from it!

[kittykatGURL96]

Agree Agree Agree.

and paysites: What's the point of it? Your really just wasting money on pixels. And thats all it's ever going to be. Maybe some sites like Peggysims or raonsims has nice stuff and that's okay but whatever it's still ridiculous how people waste their money on this when they could be using their money on something more helpful like a children's hospital or donations to the starving people in Africa, or however it may be it's actually quite selfish. Im appauled about this and disappointed. What about people who cant afford it? Do what you want...

[GC1CEO]

This might have some merit to it, but I'm pretty sure that it would have to be more than one, but I'm sure we could get away with no more than three.

Don't sell yourself short! Building lots is an art too, have you seen what gets thrown up on the exchange? If everyone could 'build' no one would bother downloading them.

Appreciated. :)

I just wish I had the skill for really good recolours, then my own objects and meshes, etc. I might give it a try again, after the next expansion comes out at the end of the month.

I think a site and a commitee for investigating ToUs and establishing common standards would probably be a good start. Figure out the most common terms that creators use, and why sometimes they difer and under what circumstances. For example, I think almost any creator would appreciate someone not taking credit for their work so that might be a good first common point. Some creators don't wish their work to be used in a certain manner such as not using it in a sexually or racially offensive manner, well there could form its own addenum to a main standard that could be checkmarked, and so on and so forth.

[J. M. Pescado]

I think a site and a commitee for investigating ToUs and establishing common standards would probably be a good start. Figure out the most common terms that creators use, and why sometimes they difer and under what circumstances. For example, I think almost any creator would appreciate someone not taking credit for their work so that might be a good first common point. Some creators don't wish their work to be used in a certain manner such as not using it in a sexually or racially offensive manner, well there could form its own addenum to a main standard that could be checkmarked, and so on and so forth.See, there you go again. First you suggest a common standard, then you go and start making exceptions to it. And as a result, you're back where you started. Plus, all of this is totally unenforceable. It's not backed by any legal force and you'd be ignored if you tried that route, which means you'd need massive funding to keep and maintain the detectives and hired goons you'd need to break the kneecaps of those who violate it. The entire idea is absurd, and we're all better off just moving away from this nonsense.

Another thing worth noting is that at for any given a site, a goodly portion of the people downloading your stuff likely WILL NOT UNDERSTAND ENGLISH. These people aren't going to have the slightest idea what your gobbledygook says. Unless you want to retain a translating staff, AND an INTERNATIONAL kneecap-breaking force, you can forget that idea, too.

[Delphy]

Committees? This is, after all, a totally free community in the sense that people can do what they want - the point of this entire thing is to just understand why and to also give people respect where it is due.

Overcomplicating the situation through these means isn't going to achieve anything. So, in this respect I agree with Pescado's last post.

Also, kittykat, I guess you missed the bit about this is not a paysite discussion thread. Please do not post about that on this thread again, kthxbai.

[jmtmom]

I think at this point the best way is for MTS2 to come up with a standard TOU that they recommend modders use and why. I think forcing people to adopt it is probably going too far, but maybe it could be used unless someone specifies something different and should also be applied to unsupported/abandoned uploads. While I'd much prefer everyone had a open, free shared work mentality, this could be a compromise. It also starts people thinking about the problems they make for people by restrictive TOU's and also allows for the rare situation where it might be appropriate.

[Delphy]

I don't think there is any point in us coming up with a "standard TOU" - the point isn't that people standardise at all. Besides, we get enough flak as it is for being "elitist" and having a moderation queue - I'm sure a lot of creators would simply rather leave than have to adjust thier policies just to be able to post here, which really defeats the entire point of the site.

I think this entire thread and HPs initial post have gotten people started on thinking about the problems they make for people by restrictive TOUs, and the discussion and conversation in here has been invaluable for people to understand the whys and wherefores of it.

*throws a random cat in Pescado's cleavage*

[jmtmom]

That's not really what I was saying, but I get your point. It would probably make some people mad and stir up lots more drama because that's how it would be interpreted, not as a recommended guideline, but a rigid rule.

[wanda1000]

If a person took a car, painted it, put on different tires, did some artwork on it, made new seat covers, put in new audio equipment and claimed it as their own creation, and no one else could do the same or use anything that was done as their own. That to do so would be "stealing", "piracy", "Illegal". I would think that person would be laughed at. The basis of it all, the car, was not their own creation. The basis, the car creation, by any legal right, belongs to the car manufacturer and not the one who "dressed" it up.

I don't see how this can be any different than what "creators" do with the Sims2 game. Nothing that anyone "creates" can be done without using what is already in the Sims2 game. And what is in the Sims2 game belongs to EA Games. No matter how much one tweaks, recolors, manipulates what is already in the game, it does not belong to them. There isn't any legal ownership of that creation since the basis of it was an EA Games creation legally owned by EA Games. Remove the dressing up and there is an EA Game item as its base. I chuckle each time I have removed a mod from my Sims' folder and found an EA Games pedestal sink, or EA Games statue standing in its' place.

Although, I do feel it would be a "courtesy" amongst peers to make mention of a creator when using their work as part of ones own, legally it isn't necessary as no stealing in a legal sense has taken place. Even the so called "Intellectual Property Rights" does not exist in these Sims2 creations/mods. One also needs to show damages and monetary loss to even approach an attorney to initiate a suit. I really don't think it can be done, not only because no monetary loss has taken place but also because the creation can only exist because of what EA Games has created.

Maybe what I see as a "pecking system" should be turned around and just be a matter of respect and having the respect of one's own peers.

Just to add a side here, my daughter well known for her fantasy art, had learned her artwork, in part, was tatooed on a person without her consent. There was nothing she could do. Also, another person in Europe had copied my daughter's artwork, line by line and was claiming it as her own, widely, on the internet. Again, there wasn't anything legally my daughter could do. The reason being no monetary loss or damages had taken place. Even though her work was orignal and based on only her own talents.

[Jasana_BugBreeder]

About the generalized TOUs - actually, it could be a nice option, if creators could set some critical points of their TOUs while creating the thread - for example, pick one of three, "yes, freely" | "with conditions (described in thread") | "no, never" - and downloaders could then filter downloads by them, like we can now filter by required EPs. (It's just a wishful thinking, since Delphy is retired :) by why not to think?)
The most mentioned points of confusion seem to be:
- allow to use creator's stuff on pictures
- allow to include creator's stuff with your stuff (meshes with recolors, objects with houses, clothing with sim, etc.)
- allow to reuse creator's stuff (modify meshes, use parts of textures, clone objects)
So creator could choose these three (maybe always to 'with conditions' described in his/her policy in thread), and users could filter and not download, or not see at all, the stuff which policies would bother them.

On main topic, I totally agree with HP - creators' wishes should be respected. If you don't like someone's terms, just don't use his/her stuff - download someone else's, there's tons of downloads on the net - or create yourself.
And yes, I do think that everyone can create.
Yes, it takes time and efforts to learn the technical aspects of creation - but, guess what, everyone had to learn, no creators have magic wands to built packages without any efforts :D And, actually, a lot of things are simplified - like, new plugins developed - so, in a sense, present-time creators do have some 'magic wands' comparing to creating 1-2 years ago. Yes, you need to start learning things from simplest, not jump to complex stuff - it seems to be a common problem. But it's nothing impossible on this part.
Yes, not anyone have talent, or creativity, or however you call it. However - sorry if this will offend someone http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/4377/tomatoxd1.gif - which percent of the numerous downloads you can get really requires talent? For example - yes, you need a talent like Enayla's to make hand-painted skintones as good as hers; but how many skintones are made from photos? What do you need to paste a photo over texture, and carefully blend it with original image - talent? Or some technical skills (obtainable by anyone) and accuracy (ok, this is hard, I agree :D but not impossible, and there's a lot of inaccurate works (not just clothes) which are still popular)? Even if you have poor taste (like me, for example :D), is it impossible to google a nice dress photo, and paste it over a sims dress? (Yeah, it would take some technical knowledge to do seams correctly. But it's not about creativity.) Yeah, it takes creativity to think up an interesting mesh. But who disallowed recreating of interesting stuff you see in real life? Copying existing stuff requires technical skills and accuracy, not talent.
So, instead of cursing those nasty creators with their illogical rules, why not try to create something? ;)

And, about the often repeated comments 'it's just a game', which are really puzzling me. Perhaps those people play a dozen of games daily, and Sims is just one title among them, taking very little of their time? If you play regularly; if you remember all your families and are emotionally envolved in their progress; if you want something for your game so badly that you ignore any terms attached to it (if it's 'just a game', why not abandon and move on to better stuff) - why it's 'just a game'? It's already a hobby, and the fact that it's on PC, not something material, doesn't cancel it.
I have a friend (adult) who has a hobby of playing with real dolls. They dress them up, they create doll families and stories; they have their own community (and their own drama queens :D). What's the big difference between their hobby and ours?

[Delphy]

I was working on some kind of "Policies" system here on MTS2 a year ago or so - but we could never agree on all the different types and possibilities. Indeed, if you look at my profile you'll see the remnants of that work.

[Jasana_BugBreeder]

Indeed, if you look at my profile you'll see the remnants of that work.Sorry, I missed it earlier somehow :(
Wow, those would be handy :gjob: I'll certainly use them now that I saw them. (Though, there's two 'Sim-no' icons and no 'Sim-yes' :|)

[Delphy]

Jasana, those are my personal policy icons for testing purposes. Thus, I have it set so that you can't upload stuff with Sims. Which is, of course, a test only. :)

The entire policies thing still has to be finished off. As I said, I was working on it over a year ago and the project got dropped.

[Jetsetter1999]

I just want to add my two cents. I'm not a creator, I'm a builder. I'm too old, too stupid, suffered brain-drain too long working third shift or whatever. Everything I do in the game uses custom content. I don't like Maxis stuff ;I'm going for realism. Frankly I'd be happier if I could delete all of the original content so I could have more custom content ;)

A couple of months ago, a forum I belong to had a building contest. It wasn't to post the house for downloading but just to post pics. So I built my house and it turned out great. So [and here's where the problems come in] I tried to find out what the various creator's policies were for just posting pics. Guess what? Most of the walls and floors I use don't even tell me who created them let alone what website they're from. Also what to do about the sites that no longer exist? We all know that sites come and go but nobody seems to have a policy in place for that. I ended up not entering the contest because I couldn't verify the content. I've got no problem respecting anyone's TOU but lets not make it impossible to comply.

[Saraswati5]

Jetsetter I've been there.. and build stuff is where you get the most angst. Because we do download a lot of stuff in the course of our day, and walls and floors are the most generic in how we label them.

The thing is.. I don't know where this thing comes from where people think you can't photograph a sim wearing their stuff. It's a ridiculous level to take the whole "ownership" idea. I'm not even sure they've got a right to demand that you don't photograph their stuff, especially considering that in most cases we're usually using photo textures very heavily..

However, how I get around it is, I have two versions of the game running. I have a build game and a playing game.. and I go through the walls and floors I want to use, package them and move them into the build game. A little painstaking and boring, but it works. And it also avoids having hacks package with the house. I also tend to stick to downloading walls and floors from people I'm allowed to reuse like stuff on my own site or on sites of my friends. That way I know where the stuff comes from so I can't get in trouble.. maybe have a build game going and put the walls in there that you know you can share?

[jmtmom]

If you're not going to clearly identify your stuff, you have no right to complain if you don't get credit. End of story. If it matters, you better make sure to mark it clearly. It isn't hard really. I don't do pictures, story telling myself, but to put such a burden on others is ridiculous. I wouldn't feel the least bit bad about freely using content in that situation and I don't think anyone else should either. If someone points out who made the content, then give credit.

I can see that credit would be needed if the item is central to the picture, the hair on the main sim, for example, but if it's in the background, that seems overly burdensome.

[funkyclover]

hello guys!! i play sims from the first time its been released n had so much fun, playing it.. the other game i play these last days is Second Life i wonder any of you heard it its similiar to sims online but much more freedom.. anyways in this game u can make ur own creations n sell them in exchange of Linden Dollars which can be changed to actual dollars too.. many great designers r making their Rl lifes this way n they r really creative too.. the problem is i saw a shop called M&M skins, body shop etc.. they were selling EA game custom content too n also the things they ripped from sims forums.. which gave me a quite shock cause they were selling it way expensive too.. so the skin i use for my sim which i downloaded a ages ago n i cant remember the creator of it -so cant contact who it is- they were selling it n some furnitures which is way to similiar to my eyes that i used for my homes too... im gonna put some pics here n pls take a look at them if they r yours or the crators u know! which is been selling to people for real deal money...

they go by the names of these: MiraSonia Demina, XStar Demina, tangerine Yalin.. I SAY AGAIN THIS IS IMPORTANT IF YOU ANY SAW IN THESE PIC UR THINGS PLZ GET INTO SL BE A MEMBER ITS FREE N REPORT THESE PPL TO LINDEN LABS WHICH ARE THE OWNERS OF SECOND LIFE GAME AND THREATEN THEM TO GO DMCA cause these are making money after ur backs!!!
pics:
the custom corset from EA
http://aycu37.webshots.com/image/43596/2004193108919592719_rs.jpg

a skin which i even use for my sims
http://aycu02.webshots.com/image/46321/2004515696135590368_rs.jpg

n some furniture:
http://aycu32.webshots.com/image/43911/2001720840395793070_rs.jpg
http://aycu06.webshots.com/image/45005/2001734059809945177_rs.jpg
http://aycu10.webshots.com/image/46929/2001742119914828324_rs.jpg

this furniture seems familiar but im not sure who made them etc or textures..

[DOHC46]

I want to thank HP for writing this article. If anything, I think we can all agree that the core here is respect. I respect the creators here, even with my silly recolors. I make sure there is a link to meshes and give credit where it is due. I'm rather annoyed that one of the creators removed his stuff from the site I had linked to, but hey, what can I do? I know as a recolorer, many might not even consider me a "creator" per-say, but I do put some effort into what I've made (especially that Mustang recolor, those textures are brutal to work with). My only request is to tell people where they got it and who made it if they want to share it somewhere else, and to keep it free. (Pay Site debate is for elsewhere, so I won't go into that crapola.) I tend to avoid using creations from creators with an overly harsh ToU policy, but I believe that a creator has some right to request how their stuff is used, but lets not go crazy, here. We don't need the extremist divas, either. In the end, I just want to stress that it is all about one thing: Respect. When we lose respect, we lose everything. So, lets keep it real, here. :D

[Petchy]

I was working on some kind of "Policies" system here on MTS2 a year ago or so - but we could never agree on all the different types and possibilities. Indeed, if you look at my profile you'll see the remnants of that work.

Oinz, I did one of thoese too! (No-where neerly as good as yours are! But same idea, Ish...)

Mine were:
http://www.modyourpanties.com/hosting/1069_080225130700Sims Button-Installation.pngInstallation http://www.modyourpanties.com/hosting/1072_080225130852Sims Button-Upload.png Uploading http://www.modyourpanties.com/hosting/1074_080225130933Sims Button-Problems.png Problems http://www.modyourpanties.com/hosting/1075_080225130956Sims Button-Requests.png Requests (To be linked to a PM-me) http://www.modyourpanties.com/hosting/1078_080225131227Sims[/url] Button -CC.png[IMG] CC inclued/Needed or Advised [IMG]http://www.modyourpanties.com/hosting/1081_080225131342Sims Button-Genetics.pngGenetics http://www.modyourpanties.com/hosting/1085_080225131809image2_51.pngComments http://www.modyourpanties.com/hosting/1086_080225132224Sims Button-Relocation.png Relocation (Uploading somewhere elce) http://www.modyourpanties.com/hosting/1087_080225132316Sims Button-Pay.png Pay Content/Site http://www.modyourpanties.com/hosting/1088_080225132808Sims Button-Booty.png Booty
To be used like yours (or as Title buttons)!

Back on Track:

I agree TOTALLY with you HP, people should respect what terms they give, Mabey a 'TOU' section to be added to the profile when people regester or create will help people to express their uses better? as some people just don't have a TOU to begin with and having a set section would be much better for outsiders looking in on their work! (Yes I agree that most users [Inc. Me] have a TOU picture or Text as thir 'about me' section), but having an additional box would probabally encourage more people to give one.

(I think annyway!)
:up: :up: :Pint:

[cjh3787]

I have great respect for you because you are the FIRST, yes, the FIRST person I have heard of making a great rant about this. Excelently written as well, but represents a good opinion and presents a practically unbeatable arguement for the side of those against copiers. If only judges would deal with this stuff and make it illegal...

[Navetsea]

It is easier for mesher
to control their works with policy like "you can freely recolor but don't touch the mesh!"
compared to texturer
since there is no solid evidence can be proofed here, somebody can just put face texture of 1 set combined with leg from other set, and abdominal texture from another set again, so at the end product it is hard to tell.

That's why I put on quite strict policy which forbid any alteration toward my texture (for reuploading), means people can still frankensteining my texture for their private pleasure, I think that is quite fair.

(my textures = my 100% digitally hand painted textures)

as for asking credit for using it in pictures, that's way too much... if a creator doesn't want their stuff to be seen worn by a sim somewhere, please keep them in the vault, don't share.

[Siman552]

I think that ANY breech of terms is wrong, now matter how strong the terms. I, personally, only require my screen name to be credited with the original design, and I request to be informed when it is distributed to check the site out for myself. I think these overly strong terms are wrong, but the creator still has an expectation for them to be followed.

[Siman552]

I think that ANY breech of terms is wrong, no matter how strong the terms. I, personally, only require my screen name to be credited with the original design, and I request to be informed when it is distributed to check the site out for myself. I think these overly strong terms are wrong, but the creator still has an expectation for them to be followed.

[Hooligans]

First, I'd like to congratulate you, HP, in you maturity and brilliance in this rant. I also say that in respect to freesites only, I do agree with you one hundred percent (I'd say a million trillion bajillion percent, except that that is neither physically possible, nor a real number). :Pint:

OPINION TIME: I know I, for one, would want to get all bent out of shape and want to go Dame Slappabitch ( :!: ) on anyone who just stole my stuff outright and threw it on a paysite with "oh i werkt sooooooo hadr on this!!!!!11", but what the fuck could I do except go away from the screen and take a walk for a while? Well, that and mail the guy from PSMBD and tell him, "Yo, don't throw this up on your site, 'cause y'all can get it fer free in whole over at MTS2 (or SXS2)". Particularly because my shit isn't even that GOOD, people. For reals (and I'm not fishing here, it's Gospel).

And to the creators who DO get bent out of shape and leave or cause a giant dramastorm? Srsly, just go QQ in your coffee somewhere else people, 'cause ain't NOBODY here wanna hear it or see it. Really, some of you need a good jerk and to go to sleep for a while. Trust me, the world looks a lot sunnier on the other side of a Big O and a nap. Fer srs ppl, there are a thousand other folks that you can get similar content from if a creator gets too bitchy, so why even deal with it?

I have other opinions on paysites, but that doesn't belong here and no one asked for ANYONE'S opinion on paysites in this thread at all! (To be honest, she didn't ask for anyone's opinion on anything in this. That's not what a rant's for.) Like religion, this is a private matter, and you should come to your own conclusions about how you feel about it. Don't let someone else tell you how to think, just know that you SHOULD think.

And if anyone is confused by the acronyms up there I used, just send me a PM, I'll try to explain it.

</proselytize>
</microrant>

ADDENDUM: Furthermore, I fear I may just have to end up shitting myself if they actually come out with a Sims 3. Fo' reals. :| I mean, why not milk this cow as long a possible? :rofl:

ADDENDUM B: I loves me some smileys today, mang.

[Astymma]

Personally, I think HP's post was excellent.

Sadly, I think it resulted in the creation of the perfect soapbox for those who possess the unreasonable, illogical and immature sense of entitlement mentioned in HP's original post to express their views.

Is this restricted to the Sims? No, unfortunately, it is not. It seems to be rampant throughout the internet, not just in games. This sense of entitlement, when taken to its inevitable conclusion, will kill expression. I would rather adhere to, in my mind, a crazy TOU than destroy expression in the Sims 2 community.

[jmtmom]

I would rather adhere to, in my mind, a crazy TOU than destroy expression in the Sims 2 community.

I'm of the opinion that that allowing crazy TOU's to be accepted as normal is more likely to destroy expression.

[cliff_the_bass_master]

Yeah, it's awful to think that very tallented creators get ... almost nothing, for ... well ... WORK! ('cause at some point, it is work!). It is free, and most people try to "steal" it ... (I've seen a lot of "stolen" meshes on a variety of sites) ... What can we do when there will always be someone who forgets (or ignores) to show some respect for the ARTIST that made a substantial effort to create a great piece of custom content?

[NeyaQueenofBacon]

Great post HP. For the exchange it can be hard to verify who the original creator is/was if you have never heard of MTS2 or any site. I know that before I discovered any other site that the Exchange was the main source for download. For some uploads I stated that none of the CC was mine but the exchanged claimed otherwise (due to uploaded being curred/culled away). :( Its really hard to state who created what. People do upload meshes/skins onto the exchange as well. For the exchange I generally upload my items (except items with a Creator's mesh, thats a no no and people get mad if you upload onto the Exchange without a mesh.. <.< people never read the description on where to get the mesh). Yes I have seen people take my skintones and paste them over another skin just so the CC will be marked as theirs. They change the tag file at times too but it doesn't bother me as much. To be honest I kinda find it as a compliment and an insult all in one. :) They like the CC so much that they upload it but then again claim it as their own. The karma is usually that the upload is rated low, curred/culled away very soon, not many people download it, and people end up looking for more CC and find the original.
On another note some creators never tag their work correctly. I had a ton of CC that was very beautiful but never could find the creator because for the tag they put something like "Exotic Black Eyes" or whatever.

Great job on laying everything out HP. ^^

[rosaline_10]

:cry:
I think another big issue is hotlinking
I recently found out someone is directly hotlinking my images and the download files, yet I make it clear not hotlinking.
does anyone have any suggestions on what I can do to stop this stealing?

[Delphy]

rosaline, there are a ton of scripts and server-side things you can do to stop hotlinking. I wouldn't exactly call it stealing (especially in the case of the actual downloads), but a quick google for "htaccess hotlinking" will help you out.

Thats not really a big issue though as it pertains to this thread or most creators here.

[rosaline_10]

thanks Delphy for the tip,I will for sure read up on htaccess
sorry If that it was not really related to this thread its just
there is one site that is hotlinking half a dozen of my images and download files and they are saying that they created them, and also saying that did all the work,basically taking credit for my work ,its very upsetting when I spent hours on my creations :(

[The Sorceress]

Thanks HP for starting this thread.

One of the things that made the Simscommunity so special to me was the sharing part. The reason i started creating in the first place back in the Sims 1 time. People where appreaciative of CC in that time. I'm really glad the biggest part still is. But a shift in mentality is defenitly noticable and worries me. So i'm really glad HP opened this discussion.

I don't like the fact a number of people think they have the right to do whatever they want with CC, or call all creators diva's or whiners or such, maybe some deserve that name but the majority does not.

I've always said that without CC the Sims game would never have become as big as it is now so Yes respect to the creators of CC and their policies is in order. Creators dó spend a lot of time and effort in their work not to mention frustration and sweat. Respecting their policies is such a little thing in return.

We as a housebuilder and recoloring site take great effort in honoring other creators policies and giving credit. We are 100% free and we ask so little in our policies. The site hosting does cost me money but i will never ever ask money in return. So given no credit or claiming things as your own is disgusting to say the least.

It is not a matter of easy policies, or at least it should not be, it is a matter of disrespectful behavior towards the people that make your game more fun, towards the people that make things you like. There should be no difference from who it is alright to steal, or go against their wishes, and from who not. It is about respecting eachother as a large group of people with a common interest.

I'm afraid that if this disrespectful attitude continues and get worse we won't see and enjoy CC for very long.

P.S English is not my native language so don't hold that against me ;)