Christians Wrong About Heaven, Says Bishop

[Amish Nick_SC]

Thursday, Feb. 07, 2008 By DAVID VAN BIEMA

N.T. "Tom" Wright is one of the most formidable figures in the world of Christian thought. As Bishop of Durham, he is the fourth most senior cleric in the Church of England and a major player in the strife-riven global Anglican Communion; as a much-read theologian and Biblical scholar he has taught at Cambridge and is a hero to conservative Christians worldwide for his 2003 book The Resurrection of the Son of God, which argued forcefully for a literal interpretation of that event.

It therefore comes as a something of a shock that Wright doesn't believe in heaven — at least, not in the way that millions of Christians understand the term. In his new book, Surprised by Hope (HarperOne), Wright quotes a children's book by California first lady Maria Shriver called What's Heaven, which describes it as "a beautiful place where you can sit on soft clouds and talk... If you're good throughout your life, then you get to go [there]... When your life is finished here on earth, God sends angels down to take you heaven to be with him." That, says Wright is a good example of "what not to say." The Biblical truth, he continues, "is very, very different."

Read the full interview. (http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1710844,00.html)


Very interesting read. One that goes against the views of millions. So lets talk about what he said, and post our views on Heaven.

[Doddibot]

Hmm. Interesting. I don't really have any comments other than I do agree that mostly heaven is just described as 'paradise' within the Bible. Nothing much more.

Personally, my view of the afterlife is summarised by this quote:

"After your death you will be what you were before your birth" -- Arthur Schopenhauer

Because I wasn't anything before my conception (more accurate than birth these days, but that quote is from the 19th century), I don't think I will be anything after my death. If consciousness can begin, then it can end. Simple really.

[urisStar]

The man is right but how popular is anything that goes against popular christian teachings that have been rehearsed and emphasized for over two thousand years? Most people that study the bible as if looking at it for the first time without influence of outside prodding have a hard time agreeing with christian teachings. It is like a painting with many figures painted into one and some can point out some figures other than the dominant one.

A choice was made to introduce fear into Christianity and people were paid a pretty penny to come up with paintings to emphasize that fact. The funny thing about it all, people want to hold on to their original sin, heaven and hell as they somehow seem to feel more at home/comfortable with the fear of it all.:goodbad :sprint:

[davious]

It sounds like all he is saying is that there is a temporary spot in the afterlife until Christ creates the new heaven and the new earth, which will be a permanent home. I don't see anything particularly controversial about it. The book of Revelation tells us that God will create a new heaven and a new earth, that is the eternal resting spot. The idea of eternal heaven being cloudy with us as cute little angels with wings floating around is completely unbiblical...its a fantasy. God tells us in the Bible that He will create an eternal paradise...not that it has already been created. Believers who die right now, before Christ comes back, before Satan is vanquished forever, merely go to a temporary heaven, that will be recreated later. His position is fully supported by the Bible, and it is the exact teachings of my church as well...

There is a temporary, non-physical heaven, that acts as a temporary holding place, until Christ comes again. Once that happens, God will recreate the heavens and the earth, and since Satan will be completely vanquished, the new earth will be completely without sin, a paradise. At that point, we will be issued new bodies, to live forever. There are more details to that, but that is the basic idea.

[Endersgirl07]

Ah, N.T. Wright :) very good theologian. I appreciate that he's considered this idea of heaven more thoughtfully than a good deal of mainstream Christians. It makes sense, so much more than a disembodied place in the clouds does. I have not looked into it, but I suspect this kind of afterlife is what my church teaches as well, since my church greatly values environmental stewardship, and as Wright said, one would have no reason to preserve the body or the earth if it were going to vanish anyway (my church has actually been criticized by fundamentalist groups on that issue- ironic, huh?)

[Reindeer911_SC]

Interesting article indeed. In the end, it still really comes down to one person's opinion though. Death, like life, is exactly what you make of it.

[Haylifer]

I've met that guy :D

He's completely right. Too many Christians are viewing Heaven as a safety net - they aren't enjoying life because they're comparing it to heaven too much, and not valuing all the good points on Earth because they see it as something imperfect. That's the wrong way to go about things.

I like this bit:

If people think "my physical body doesn't matter very much," then who cares what I do with it? And if people think that our world, our cosmos, doesn't matter much, who cares what we do with that?

Anyway, there's no need for all the media sensationalism as though he's just condemned the whole Bible as fake. It's his opinion, he's taking a philosophical approach to the Bible and attempting to view it from different angles. That's a great thing to do, it means he's still open-minded about everything unlike many Christians who refuse to hear anything different than the exact print of the Bible word for word. He's what I'd call a modern thinker, and that's a good thing.

As for what I believe - when I get eaten by maggots and biodegrade into something mushy and horrible, my atoms are still going to exist and everything that makes up my body will still exist therefore "I" will still exist only not in a form I've experienced before. My energy will drift off into the cosmos, and eventually all of these things will someday come back together and be recycled into something living. So I believe in reincarnation :P But I can't explain it, so I'll wait until I've died to see what happens. Can't prove anything without experimenting.

[frankie]

When I read the entire new Testament, angels were supposedly not attractive at all with eyes all over them and I think they look like mutants. What we see as angels in the fantasy aspect is nothing at all like what it really is, as those angels are just humanized like everything else is humanized (i.e., cartoons for children always humanize animals to make them look more tolerable).

Since I'm an Agnostic I don't know what there would be. What about those who believe in reincarnation or who believe in complete nothingness? Are they just going to go to hell because they believe in those things and not in "Heaven?" There is no proof that there is a Heaven, Hell, reincarnation, nothingness, etc. It all boils down to faith. And I rely solely on logic than faith because faith is something that we invent, logic isn't.

I don't believe in something just because others believe in it or because we were raised to believe in it. If anything, that just makes me feel like a lemming. True, I have absolutely not the slightest knowledge in all of this. But at least I have read the New Testament (I tried the Old but it was way too long and repetitive and the New one is the one Christians are supposed to go by anyway). Again... no proof. I am way too afraid to become a Christian or any other religion because it would make me feel like I am just becoming a lemming because of the fact that there is no proof. And no, I am not calling anyone on here a lemming. I would just love to know what makes you guys believe in God, Heaven, etc. when there is no proof? And please spare me the joke that God talks to people because He doesn't. Why is it that I have asked Him for help and prayed to Him so many times during my Christian phases and not one answer have I ever received? Or is it just because I have committed blasphemy and did not know it and I'm now condemned for the rest of my life without any chance on going to "Heaven?" So, thus, making God want absolutely nothing to do with me, like a used up napkin waiting to be trashed? I don't know, it just seems like religion is all too silly and this whole Heaven thing was probably a great way to teach kids how to behave... much like the stupid Santa Clause belief. There are some Christians out there who do not even believe there is a hell, and that it is just a way to scare people so that they can start doing what is "right." I don't know, it just seems too Santa Clause-ish to me.

My mom's Pentecostal church claims that God speaks to them all the time. I used to watch them dance and shake and scream and sometimes they sounded like they were speaking Arabic which was them allegedly talking in tongues. Why can't I learn tongue language (not that I really want to, lol)? There is currently a woman who attends that church whose name is Rosita and they call her Rosita "La Profeta" which is Spanish for the "The Profit" because supposedly God talks to her and she finds out things when no one has even told her about it in the first place. And you all believe in this nonsense? Again, I am not trying to be rude here, but come on now! I think it's very insulting that I should be expected to be a fool. Sure, I had bad grades in school and I have A.D.D. and depression and my I.Q. is not as high as I would like it to be (it's average) but I also don't know why people have to expect me to be a fool. Then again, as mentioned before... it's all boiling down to faith. Faith... we invent. Logic... it's there to begin with and makes sense.

[Black_Barook!]

Offtopic: God talks to us in many ways. For example, I experienced that in the form of a university accepting my application. Another thing as Muslims we believe that God will ignore us if we do not remember Him. Remember Him in time of leisure and He will remember you in times of hardships.

Ontopic: That sounds similar to what Muslims believe and yet not at the same time! =D

[frankie]

Well, Christians, Muslims and Jews all believe in the same God. Just that Christians believe that Jesus is the Messiah and already came, Jews believe the same but that Jesus has yet to come, and Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet. I could be wrong but this is what I learned.

[Endersgirl07]

Frankie, you ask why people believe in something when there is no proof, then you dismiss the given reason, which is faith. And you have to realize that faith is not an "invention" of mankind, it is a manifest of conscious thought; and it is not solely religious. Everyone believes things that are based on faith, not on fact. One of them being, that the universe even exists beyond our own consciousness. Personally I think that if that's even a possibility, if we can't prove that our world exists beyond our own thoughts, then we can't prove anything outside it. So to demand "proof" of something that relies on faith is sort of pointless.
I think you and many other agnostics and atheists really do not give enough credence to faith. If we should only rely on the rules of logic, then everyone would come to the conclusion that nothing is knowable, and how useful is that? It's better to assume something is true and be wrong than to assume nothing is true and be useless. That's why faith has value. And having faith in something doesn't make you a sheep/lemming, and it doesn't make you a fool. Being a sheep means not thinking independently, and that has not much to do with faith, but rather with laziness.
Anyway, now we're off-topic, so we should return to that.

[frankie]

Well I still don't see any change even after your post. I don't see how I can ever believe that God talks to us and that Heaven awaits us. But I'll tell you, almost every night, I have a hard time sleeping. Instead of shutting down my brain to go to sleep, I find myself automatically thinking about afterlife and how scary it is. I am so afraid to lose everything I know. I fear afterlife and so my chest starts to tighten up and I start to feel nauseas. This has happened only at night while in bed trying to go to sleep. Almost every night, too! It sucks. What also sucks is that sometimes I'll call God and talk to Him in a "only-if-You-exist" fashion. Like, "God, IF you do exist... IF this... IF that..." etc. I admit that Heaven has always sounded like the best option in the sense that there would be no more suffering and drama, etc. I guess it will always be a mystery. At least you guys believe in something and are sure of it. I think that is still better than going through what I am going through. I'm not a typical Agnostic, I'm just more loft and confused and in pain, etc. That sucks more than anything because it's the reason why I can never get a good night's sleep. Sorry to be off topic, thuohg, this relates to Heaven in a way, so it is not completely off.

[urisStar]

Well I still don't see any change even after your post. I don't see how I can ever believe that God talks to us and that Heaven awaits us. But I'll tell you, almost every night, I have a hard time sleeping. Instead of shutting down my brain to go to sleep, I find myself automatically thinking about afterlife and how scary it is. I am so afraid to lose everything I know. I fear afterlife and so my chest starts to tighten up and I start to feel nauseas. This has happened only at night while in bed trying to go to sleep. Almost every night, too! It sucks. What also sucks is that sometimes I'll call God and talk to Him in a "only-if-You-exist" fashion. Like, "God, IF you do exist... IF this... IF that..." etc. I admit that Heaven has always sounded like the best option in the sense that there would be no more suffering and drama, etc. I guess it will always be a mystery. At least you guys believe in something and are sure of it. I think that is still better than going through what I am going through. I'm not a typical Agnostic, I'm just more loft and confused and in pain, etc. That sucks more than anything because it's the reason why I can never get a good night's sleep. Sorry to be off topic, thuohg, this relates to Heaven in a way, so it is not completely off.

I study religions as a hobby and have been doing this for many years. I enjoy it because it help me to understand people in a way that I could never do just by having a conversation only. I just came across this sight, maybe it may help you understand that you are not alone, there are/were a lot of people with similar questions and concerns in/from every generation since the beginning/foundation of religions. http://www.deism.com/bibleorigins.htm (http://www.deism.com/bibleorigins.htm)

I just realized that Thomas Paine make more sense to me than Paul/Saul ever did. :doh :heyhey:

[Endersgirl07]

Well I still don't see any change even after your post. I don't see how I can ever believe that God talks to us and that Heaven awaits us. But I'll tell you, almost every night, I have a hard time sleeping. Instead of shutting down my brain to go to sleep, I find myself automatically thinking about afterlife and how scary it is. I am so afraid to lose everything I know. I fear afterlife and so my chest starts to tighten up and I start to feel nauseas. This has happened only at night while in bed trying to go to sleep. Almost every night, too! It sucks. What also sucks is that sometimes I'll call God and talk to Him in a "only-if-You-exist" fashion. Like, "God, IF you do exist... IF this... IF that..." etc. I admit that Heaven has always sounded like the best option in the sense that there would be no more suffering and drama, etc. I guess it will always be a mystery. At least you guys believe in something and are sure of it. I think that is still better than going through what I am going through. I'm not a typical Agnostic, I'm just more loft and confused and in pain, etc. That sucks more than anything because it's the reason why I can never get a good night's sleep. Sorry to be off topic, thuohg, this relates to Heaven in a way, so it is not completely off.

I was just trying to point out that faith is not as unimportant or as much of an obstacle as many seem to think :) I nor anyone else can convince you to place your faith in God, the Bible, or anything else that stands unproven or unproveable, no matter how good a proselytizer I am. Only you can do that. If you're feeling uncertain about things, you should definitely try exploring your options. Check out UrisStar's link, and look at other sites- one Christian site I really like that contains a lot of essays and articles by Christian writers is called Scriptorium Daily (http://scriptoriumdaily.com/). Then, of course, there's ReligiousTolerance.org (http://www.religioustolerance.org), which contains resources from myriad faiths. Ultimately, though, you're responsible for any personal decision you make regarding faith.

[hszmv]

Well I still don't see any change even after your post. I don't see how I can ever believe that God talks to us and that Heaven awaits us. But I'll tell you, almost every night, I have a hard time sleeping. Instead of shutting down my brain to go to sleep, I find myself automatically thinking about afterlife and how scary it is. I am so afraid to lose everything I know. I fear afterlife and so my chest starts to tighten up and I start to feel nauseas. This has happened only at night while in bed trying to go to sleep. Almost every night, too! It sucks. What also sucks is that sometimes I'll call God and talk to Him in a "only-if-You-exist" fashion. Like, "God, IF you do exist... IF this... IF that..." etc. I admit that Heaven has always sounded like the best option in the sense that there would be no more suffering and drama, etc. I guess it will always be a mystery. At least you guys believe in something and are sure of it. I think that is still better than going through what I am going through. I'm not a typical Agnostic, I'm just more loft and confused and in pain, etc. That sucks more than anything because it's the reason why I can never get a good night's sleep. Sorry to be off topic, thuohg, this relates to Heaven in a way, so it is not completely off.

My belief: Do right by your fellow man. Do what you think is right and good and just. Or don't. Your call. Everyone (religious and otherwise) is at best an agnostic. If our "immortality" is to rot in the ground or to be in an afterlife, or to come back in a different cast, we all share the same fate. Best not to wonder if you will go to heaven or hell or be reborn as a priest or an outcast or just rot. If one spends their life worrying about their death, then you have nothing to live for. But if you treat everyday as a preasious gift, and share that gift with the world, in my book, your an okay guy. I don't believe in a name for God. I find it pointless. My name is Shane. Many people mistake that for the more common Sean (or Shawn, both of which share the same meaning as Shane). I find it easy to forgive them. It's simple. I just inform them of their error, and accept their apology. I refuse to believe that God can't do the same to the person who calls him Shiva. That implies that, in some mannor, I am better then God. And that can't be true. Don't worry about the name you call "him", worry about the good you do. Heaven in my mind is a pass or fail choice.

[frankie]

Yes, I read the link that UrisStar posted and it made a lot of sense and I am not surprised about it because that was similar to how I would have believed in the Bible if I did. If I were to be a Christian, it would be the kind who would like to do research and not just believe in this or that because God said so. That to me is just pathetic and makes you a minion. But seeing as how I don't think I ever will be a Christian, I am not going to worry about that. I have some gothicism in me and I'm just very "dark" in general, so I know that that is something that most Christians will not accept. I just have so many things going on that Christians would not accept in general. At least I feel that way.

[Endersgirl07]

I think you'd be surprised how kind most Christians are... I think in the "Christians" who get the most attention are the ones like Westboro Baptist Church and other really loudmouthed, politically-driven groups of close-minded people who couldn't have an intelligent discussion with you to save their life. It's pretty sad that they have come to be seen as representational of Christianity in general. But hasn't it always been that way, with most groups? The nice ones aren't entertaining, so they don't get featured by the media. But I have never actually known a Christian who I knew to be anti-goth or anything like that, in fact some of the most admired individuals at my current church are a group of bikers who wear the leather clothes, long hair, tattoos, the works, but nobody looks down on them for their appearance, because they are some of the most active members of the church and they're incredibly nice people. Anyway, my point is you can't really know until you try. Being raised around Charismatics will really leave you with a bad taste in your mouth, but there's more out there.

[frankie]

I understand what you mean and I know and always have known that not all Christians are that fundamental. Actually I used to go to a gay church called MCC and was the best church I ever attended. Just that everyone there was so preppy and suburban that I just didn't feel like I fit in, even though they truly did welcome me with open arms... actually it seems like it is common for Christian GLBT to kiss each other as a friendly gesture... much like the "friendly kiss" interaction in The Sims 2. But I only stopped going at the time because it was not very close to me in distance without a car and I was using my dad's to go there every Sunday until it broke down for a few months and then I just kept forgetting to go when I did have the chance. Then I lost interest. And mind you, I even did the Holy Communion and everything (bread thingy with grape juice?) and loved it at the time. I remember feeling (or pretending) as if it were a piece of God entering me. Of course now that I look back I just think I was a fool for even thinking that I could be that... Christian, lol. Now I'm just more confused and it sucks for me because I'm like bait for typical fundies. They love challenges and I know they would love to feed me with their "truth." I think that's what scares me because you never know really who is like that anymore... nowadays they have gotten a lot smarter. Did you know they now send people to pretend to be gay just as a lure to confusing you more about your sexuality? I have met them online and they are spreading. These people are just thinking of every way possible to lure you and let me tell you these people are very patient! Very much so! If it takes forever to convert you, they will wait that forever amount of time! Now it's to where you could meet one of them and almost not even know it. :(

Regardless, I still do admire sites like www.ChristianGays.com (http://www.ChristianGays.com) with so many resources on GLBT Christians. That is where I got these two articles from was this site. But again... I'm afraid and vulnerable and because of that I am an easy target. :(

Actually there is a Gothic Christian site that I found, too, that I admire, but they are such a tiny percentage. They believe that you can be both goth and Christian. And I'm not only talking the way goths normally dress, but the mentality and viewpoints of goths. And I'm excluding the posers because they think they know everything and that they are the true goths and all that bull. Those I can't stand at all. They actually reject everyone who is not like them. Why do I need to go back to high school? Ugh.

EDIT: Oh, and it's just like certain gays that make us look bad, like Chris Crocker. So I am not only picking on Christians just so you all know. I don't support bath houses but I don't preach against them but there are just those gays that make us look bad, just like in every other group. And I'm Latino and can admit that there are Latinos that make us look bad. So it's like that with Christianity which I know it sucks. :(

[Reindeer911_SC]

I think you'd be surprised how kind most Christians are... I think in the "Christians" who get the most attention are the ones like Westboro Baptist Church and other really loudmouthed, politically-driven groups of close-minded people who couldn't have an intelligent discussion with you to save their life. It's pretty sad that they have come to be seen as representational of Christianity in general. But hasn't it always been that way, with most groups? The nice ones aren't entertaining, so they don't get featured by the media. But I have never actually known a Christian who I knew to be anti-goth or anything like that, in fact some of the most admired individuals at my current church are a group of bikers who wear the leather clothes, long hair, tattoos, the works, but nobody looks down on them for their appearance, because they are some of the most active members of the church and they're incredibly nice people. Anyway, my point is you can't really know until you try. Being raised around Charismatics will really leave you with a bad taste in your mouth, but there's more out there.

You raise a valid point, and judging any group by the actions of a few leads to hasty generalizations which really isn't fair for anybody. At the same token though, many Christians hold a faith that theirs is the one and only true way to a better afterlife, whereas other faiths and ideas that don't agree are condemned to a less fortunate fate. That itself wouldn't be so bad, except that people have suffered some pretty horrific consequences because they questioned the church.

In all fairness though, Christianity isn't the only religion that is guilty in this regard.

It also begs the question as to who is correct... both the Catholics and the Jehovah's Witnesses for example consider visiting another church or participating in a ceremony (such as a wedding) outside of their group to be a mortal sin. This goes beyond simply the acceptance of Jesus as the savior of mankind, and makes an obvious implication that either of these groups, and these groups alone hold the only path to God. How can one say with authority that either of these denominations are correct, or conversely blowing a lot of smoke?

[hszmv]

Um, I am Catholic. I've gone to a Catholic school my entire life. I took 13 years of religious courses. Never in thos 13 years has any of my teachers told me that going to another Christian mass was a mortal sin. In fact, a few actually encouraged it so that people would A.) experience other faiths, and 2.) find a form of worship that was right for them. They never made the asertion that they were right. In fact, one teacher was less of a Catholic and more of an Agnostic. I take a great deal of offense to the assertion that the modern Catholic church is intolorent to its fellow Christians, or even other religions. That simply is not what I as a Catholic believe.

Edit:

The notion that participating in an outside wedding is a mortal sin is even more ludicris. My family is a family of converts. My father converted to Catholicism and was very devout in his faith. He still attended his Protestant sister's wedding. If I were you, I'd brush up on what different sects believe before you make a statement like that again.

[Reindeer911_SC]

Um, I am Catholic. I've gone to a Catholic school my entire life. I took 13 years of religious courses. Never in thos 13 years has any of my teachers told me that going to another Christian mass was a mortal sin. In fact, a few actually encouraged it so that people would A.) experience other faiths, and 2.) find a form of worship that was right for them. They never made the asertion that they were right. In fact, one teacher was less of a Catholic and more of an Agnostic. I take a great deal of offense to the assertion that the modern Catholic church is intolorent to its fellow Christians, or even other religions. That simply is not what I as a Catholic believe.

Edit:

The notion that participating in an outside wedding is a mortal sin is even more ludicris. My family is a family of converts. My father converted to Catholicism and was very devout in his faith. He still attended his Protestant sister's wedding. If I were you, I'd brush up on what different sects believe before you make a statement like that again.

This is out of the Catholic Encyclopedia... the horse's mouth you might say.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07256b.htm

Communicatio in sacris, i.e. active participation in non-Catholic religious functions, is on the whole unlawful, but it is not so intrinsically evil (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05649a.htm) that, under given circumstances, it may not be excused. Thus friends and relatives may for good reasons accompany a funeral, be present at a marriage or a baptism (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm), without causing scandal (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13506d.htm) or lending support, to the non-Catholic rites, provided no active part be taken in them: their motive is friendship, or maybe courtesy, but it nowise implies approval of therites.

According to that page, it considers active participation in non-Catholic functions to be a form of heresy. Seems pretty clear to me...

Also, you might want to read this portion at the end of the article:

The Church's legislation on heresy and heretics is often reproached with cruelty and intolerance. Intolerant it is: in fact its raison d'être is intolerance of doctrines subversive of the faith (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm). But such intolerance is essential to all that is, or moves, or lives, for tolerance of destructive elements within the organism amounts to suicide (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14326b.htm). Heretical sects (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13674a.htm) are subject to the same law: they live or die in the measure they apply or neglect it. The charge of cruelty is also easy to meet. All repressive measures cause suffering or inconvenience of some sort: it is their nature (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10715a.htm). But they are not therefore cruel. The father who chastises his guilty son is just (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08571c.htm) and may be tender-hearted. Cruelty only comes in where the punishment exceeds the requirements of the case. Opponents say: Precisely; the rigours of the Inquisition violated all humane feelings. We answer: they offend the feelings of later ages in which there is less regard for the purity of faith (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm); but they did not antagonize the feelings of their own time, when heresy was looked on as more malignant than treason.

[Go Go Glamour Girl]

He died for you so you could have eternal life. Don't throw it away.
Hugs and I will be praying for you ^_^

[hszmv]

Of course, though, that differs from the (again Modern) Vatican stance (which has since apolagized for such bloody acts as the Inquisition.). Considering that Pope John Paul II himself has held countless services in places of Non-Catholic worship, and conversly has attended Non-Catholic religious ceremonies, I think it would be safe to assume that that law is a little outdated (not to mention the fact that it does not define what a herasy is or list who put out the site. It only names a Kevin Knight, who could be just about any one. The sight also seems paid for from an outside source. If it was an official sight, google adds wouldn't be there.).

Again, having grown up with the culture, in the oldest Catholic community in the US and never hearing of this law, I have to doubt the validaty or the significance in the modern world. Sorry, but I know plenty of good Catholics (some of who I would be damned if they didn't know of this law) who have attended Non-Catholic cermonies, including priests and nuns.

[urisStar]

Of course, though, that differs from the (again Modern) Vatican stance (which has since apolagized for such bloody acts as the Inquisition.). Considering that Pope John Paul II himself has held countless services in places of Non-Catholic worship, and conversly has attended Non-Catholic religious ceremonies, I think it would be safe to assume that that law is a little outdated (not to mention the fact that it does not define what a herasy is or list who put out the site. It only names a Kevin Knight, who could be just about any one. The sight also seems paid for from an outside source. If it was an official sight, google adds wouldn't be there.).

Again, having grown up with the culture, in the oldest Catholic community in the US and never hearing of this law, I have to doubt the validaty or the significance in the modern world. Sorry, but I know plenty of good Catholics (some of who I would be damned if they didn't know of this law) who have attended Non-Catholic cermonies, including priests and nuns.

A couple of years ago there was a big debate on this board and catholics where coming from everywhere to weight in. It came off more like a gang up wall of intimidation and was not pretty to say the lest. Before this I had not come in direct contact on a personal level with catholics and had never given it a second thought on what they believed or did not believe. It was an eye opener and I must say rather educational, at lest it was for me.

You must know that even catholics are different within the group/from church to church it seems, I don‘t understand the reason (s) behind this, but why would you take offense when you are not every catholic?

The church has reinvented itself and as modern as you would like it to be, it will never be able to detach itself from its history nor should it try to do so, as it will only promote more distrust/dishonesty. :anime:

[Reindeer911_SC]

Of course, though, that differs from the (again Modern) Vatican stance (which has since apolagized for such bloody acts as the Inquisition.). Considering that Pope John Paul II himself has held countless services in places of Non-Catholic worship, and conversly has attended Non-Catholic religious ceremonies, I think it would be safe to assume that that law is a little outdated (not to mention the fact that it does not define what a herasy is or list who put out the site. It only names a Kevin Knight, who could be just about any one. The sight also seems paid for from an outside source. If it was an official sight, google adds wouldn't be there.).

Again, having grown up with the culture, in the oldest Catholic community in the US and never hearing of this law, I have to doubt the validaty or the significance in the modern world. Sorry, but I know plenty of good Catholics (some of who I would be damned if they didn't know of this law) who have attended Non-Catholic cermonies, including priests and nuns.

Well, the site goes into the history and details... it indicates that is the transcription of the 1913 version of the Catholic Encyclopedia. They site the reason for that version is A: It is the most recent version in the public domain, and B: He claims that it is "thought by many to be the superior version.". Is there a reason to think that it isn't a valid transcription?

I don't know if www.catholic.org (http://www.catholic.org) is an official site, although I would presume it is... however, it too features google ads. Not an uncommon practice for websites to do so nowadays to help offset expenses. ;)

Not sure what you mean by "it does not define what a herasy is".

As far as the law being outdated, apparently not everyone agrees on that point. This is what I was able to find with a quick search.

http://www.cmri.org/97prog4.htm
http://www.traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/A174rcJPII_RatzCommunicatioSacris.htm
http://www.lulu.com/content/1431544
http://www.traditionalmass.org/images/articles/SSPX_QA_RevPDF2.pdf

Otherwise, I think I'm going to defer to UrisStar for the rest! :D

[Jacki_SC]

Interesting. In all honesty I don't think I've ever believed that heaven in just a place where we float about with little wings and white robes on fluffy white clouds (but seriously, how cool would that be if it were the case? :P). Can't see how this can be taken with such uproar.

[Amish Nick_SC]

A couple of years ago there was a big debate on this board and catholics where coming from everywhere to weight in. It came off more like a gang up wall of intimidation and was not pretty to say the lest.Did you ever pop over to Catholic.com and see the post they had over there to try and organize a front against you in that debate? They had about half the site working against you.

I ended up locking that thread to keep them from flooding our site here, turning us into a mirror of their site. Best part is, that Sir Knight that you were debating in that thread after I asked it closed, was bragging to the others how he defeated you and that the thread was locked because he showed how wrong you were.

[Nouk_SC]

There are so many views on this, it's not even funny. I think they are mostly variations of these two:

Some take the punishment of God to man for being disobidient, Death, very literally. Your body, soul and spirit die and seaze to excist untill God decides to ressurect your life essence, and judge you. That would mean no heaven or hell, just a state of unconciousness.
They also believe hell is the Second Death, where those that have been found evil, are burned to death along with the Earth, as a punishment. No eternal flames of hell, just destruction and after that nonexcistence.(sp?)
These are the beliefs of Jehova's witnesses and some other denominations.

Others say that when you die, your body dies, and you as a person are a spirit and will end up in heaven or hell directly after death. After a certain time, when the time of Man has come to and end on Earth and the Messiah has returned and reighned for 1000 years, all of mankind is ressurected (returned to their body) and judged. They either end up in the Heaven/Earth kingdom to live forever, or they end up in the Second Death, it being a lake of fire that burns forever and that tortures those inside for all eternity.
Those that believe this are usually protestant christians, but certainly not all of them. Most people don't even want to believe this version.

In my opinion, the heavens are a place for the more powerfull eternal spirits like God and the angels. Human beings were created to live on Earth, and this is where they will be returned to after all things have come to an end. Maybe Heaven and Earth will come closer to form the Kingdom of God, but I'd have to study the subject more.

[ChihoSan]

Interesting. My mom would be angry about this. We went to an old school Southern Baptist church for 15 years. She still goes. I can't say whether I agree or not about the article but it does make me want to go back and read the bible a bit. Problem is, who knows that we can or cannot trust the bible? For all we know, some ancient government has gotten it into their heads to change it as they see fit to help control the masses.
Or things could've gotten lost in translation. The way I see it is, I do in fact believe the Jesus did die so that people could be forgiven, I don't have concrete evidence, I just believe it. And I trust that believing that, and trying to live as best as I can morally, will get me to Heaven, or should I say in God's favor, if Heaven doesn't exist. Beyond that I can't say I know what to think. I just don't. I fear Hell. But if Heaven doesn't exist, maybe Hell doesn't. Or maybe they do exist and we're not meant to go there.

Here's an idea. If this article says that when we die, we kind of go to a... temporary resting state, isn't it possible that God's people, will be resurrected with him to help him create this eternal Paradise mentioned, and that those who didn't live the way he wanted, would just stay in that purgatory?

[urisStar]

Did you ever pop over to Catholic.com and see the post they had over there to try and organize a front against you in that debate? They had about half the site working against you.

I ended up locking that thread to keep them from flooding our site here, turning us into a mirror of their site. Best part is, that Sir Knight that you were debating in that thread after I asked it closed, was bragging to the others how he defeated you and that the thread was locked because he showed how wrong you were.

Yes Amish Nick, I did a couple of months later and I was not surprised as most of the posts that were posted seem to have been put together by more than one person. Some of the comments were so outrageous over there that it seem like they had duel personalities. It was as though they regressed from adults over here to children over there. I am sure the pope was proud of his fruit while the claims they made I put in direct light to their behavior. :anime:

[Doddibot]

Here's an idea. If this article says that when we die, we kind of go to a... temporary resting state, isn't it possible that God's people, will be resurrected with him to help him create this eternal Paradise mentioned...
Why would an all-powerful being need the help of anyone to do anything?

[Amish Nick_SC]

Yes Amish Nick, I did a couple of months later and I was not surprised as most of the posts that were posted seem to have been put together by more than one person. Some of the comments were so outrageous over there that it seem like they had duel personalities. It was as though they regressed from adults over here to children over there. I am sure the pope was proud of his fruit while the claims they made I put in direct light to their behavior. :anime:Remember when I asked Sir Knight "What the hell are you smoking?" Did you see the replies they were posting about that one question over there. I was so tempted to join there and continue the debate there with them, but I wasn't sure I could get you to follow. I know I didn't stand a chance alone against them, not as well as you did in that fight. lol

[frankie]

I guess we better stay on-topic this time since the McCain thread got locked. Darn, and just when it was really getting good! :(

[Reindeer911_SC]

I guess we better stay on-topic this time since the McCain thread got locked. Darn, and just when it was really getting good! :(

Meh, it devolved into a cheerleading section for either political party. Yay Team! :eviltongu

Anyway, back on topic. OK, I have to ask the question... We hear all this talk about the new heaven, new earth, new creation, etc. I just wonder, how many have given any thought as to what we would be doing in say 50 trillion years. It would seem that walking around the Garden of Eden picking fruit in 10^108 years from now would be just as hellish an existance as anything described in the Bible.

[Rabid]

I don't understand the outrage in response to this theory; it's simply that, a THEORY. No matter how much anyone professes that they know about the afterlife, no one can be sure; there's no evidence to support that this theory of heaven/hell is any more or any less justified than the traditional Christian philosophy. What's the huge hold-up?

Personally, my view of heaven is an eternal paradise rather than what the article has described. However, I don't believe in heaven as the afterlife or any of it; I have to agree with Doddibot. When you die, you will become what you were before your birth. Whether that means we've lived past lives and we'll enter another one or if we'll simply cease to exist, that's what I believe. Like Doddi said, if sentience and life can begin, then it can just as easily end.

[ChihoSan]

Why would an all-powerful being need the help of anyone to do anything?

Maybe not so much as to help but as something we can all do together. Sort of a community thing, building it with our own hands and whatnot.

[Charmaine06]

He died for you so you could have eternal life. Don't throw it away.
Hugs and I will be praying for you ^_^
VERY TRUE Glamour Girl! I pray for all non-believers. There IS physical proof of God. Just look at yourself and all of God's creation. Something can't come from nothing. "Nature" didn't create nor does it create. Only God can create. How did the universe begin? Where did everything begin? That doesn't make sense for something to come out of nothing. It all began with God - no evolution. What created matter? There is no answer for this for unbelievers because they refuse to accept that God created "matter" and everything else. Unbelievers, don't wait until you have to give an account of yourselves before God when you face Him during The Judgment. Don't choose to be eternally separated from God in darkness and in agony. How can you say that God doesn't exist just because YOU don't have "proof". You can only say that you don't believe He exists. If you don't believe, the only option is ETERNAL suffering in the lake of fire in total darkness NEVER relieved from this agony. Jesus died so that we could be saved. Accept that gift today. You may not have another chance because we only have so long on this earth. If you don't, then you won't be able to say that nobody warned you. Jesus is the ONLY path of salvation because HE is the only one who died so that you could be saved. Islam, Buddhism(however you spell it), Judaism, etc. is NOT the way because they don't accept Christ as who He really is - the Son of God, the ONLY Savior. No other faith can claim that. Salvation is NOT EARNED. It is a gift from Christ by His death for our sins. Sin came into the world through one man and salvation is offered through only one man - Christ who took the form of man to become like us to save us. Please accept Him today.

[Reindeer911_SC]

VERY TRUE Glamour Girl! I pray for all non-believers. There IS physical proof of God. Just look at yourself and all of God's creation. Something can't come from nothing. "Nature" didn't create nor does it create. Only God can create. How did the universe begin? Where did everything begin? That doesn't make sense for something to come out of nothing. It all began with God - no evolution. What created matter? There is no answer for this for unbelievers because they refuse to accept that God created "matter" and everything else. Unbelievers, don't wait until you have to give an account of yourselves before God when you face Him during The Judgment. Don't choose to be eternally separated from God in darkness and in agony. How can you say that God doesn't exist just because YOU don't have "proof". You can only say that you don't believe He exists. If you don't believe, the only option is ETERNAL suffering in the lake of fire in total darkness NEVER relieved from this agony. Jesus died so that we could be saved. Accept that gift today. You may not have another chance because we only have so long on this earth. If you don't, then you won't be able to say that nobody warned you. Jesus is the ONLY path of salvation because HE is the only one who died so that you could be saved. Islam, Buddhism(however you spell it), Judaism, etc. is NOT the way because they don't accept Christ as who He really is - the Son of God, the ONLY Savior. No other faith can claim that. Salvation is NOT EARNED. It is a gift from Christ by His death for our sins. Sin came into the world through one man and salvation is offered through only one man - Christ who took the form of man to become like us to save us. Please accept Him today.

Belief in God is one thing, but saying that your path is the only path to salvation is something else entirely. Can you provide any authoritative proof to back up your statement?

EDIT: Please don't turn this topic into a proslytising thread.

[jhd1189]

Before this thread devolves from the original topic, I'd just like to take this opportunity to remind everyone to stick with the current debate subject.

The topic at hand is about this Bishop's theory about heaven. Let's stick with that for now.

[PennyTheCorgi]

I find it interesting that a bishop doesn't believe in the generic form of Heaven. Although that's still more unproven religion then I care to dabble in, I can see the point he's making and agree with those views. I agree that too many people lean so heavily on the mindset that if they're a good person (or to some, a bad person that goes to church/confessions. I know some of those...) then they get a happy eternal afterlife of sunshine, clouds and wings. A also agree with what someone else said about understanding the outrage at this theory. There's no proof either way, so why spend so much time fretting over it? Leave people to their unproven opinions.

[Safyre420]

ontopic: I don't see the big craziness of what he says. Heaven exists in many forms, also I believe that heaven is what YOU make of it, so in reality your life here and now could be Heaven. *nods*

[frankie]

We also can't assume that Heaven is the way it is because of the fact that other religions believe differently. So then is it fair for them to go to hell for believing what they believe in? That is not fair at all. My pagan friend/co-worker believes in God but a bit differently, that He has a wife. So that there obviously makes their Heaven different than the Christian Heaven. Unless there are different Heavens and we each go to whichever applies to us? :)

[Endersgirl07]

Charmaine... your questions and statements are so typical of a creationist who has never taken the time to examine his/her own claims. They are also extraordinarily fallacious and have so many weak points. I could easily answer all of those as a Christian who professes evolution and knows a bit about the rules of logic and philosophy, but that's not what this topic is for. As others have said, no more inane proselytization, please.

On the topic of "eternal hellfire and damnation" though, as sort of a counterpoint to Wright's argument for his idea about heaven, I recently found an interesting article on the origins of the typical Christian "hell" and how it may also be a total misconception (UrisStar, you're gonna love this one :P):
Jesus's Teaching on Hell (http://gospelthemes.com/hell.htm)

[frankie]

Interesting! I am going to read it now! Funny how I posted about something like this earlier about that hell was just to scare people. :)

[Anyerfillag]

Surely this is just another interpretation of the Bible, as done by Catholics, Protestants, Roman Catholics etc? Every mind works in a different way, and so takes words/pictures/sounds and turns them into their own interpretation of what it means. If our minds didn't do that, we would all think the same; pretty boring and more than likely against what God intended.

My family comes from a Protestant background, but my parental Aunt is married to a Sikh. She loves all religions and much like Uristar reads about them all the time. She is very open about her beliefs and the beliefs of others - so why do others find it so hard? I think its less about the belief and more about the society - people are brought up within the same religion throughout different countries and end up believing something slightly different to another culture.

edit: And I'm non-religious myself, but I'm open to all people (within reasons - extremists who hurts others because of what they believe are low down in my list of people I want to engage with!).

[urisStar]

Charmaine... your questions and statements are so typical of a creationist who has never taken the time to examine his/her own claims. They are also extraordinarily fallacious and have so many weak points. I could easily answer all of those as a Christian who professes evolution and knows a bit about the rules of logic and philosophy, but that's not what this topic is for. As others have said, no more inane proselytization, please.

On the topic of "eternal hellfire and damnation" though, as sort of a counterpoint to Wright's argument for his idea about heaven, I recently found an interesting article on the origins of the typical Christian "hell" and how it may also be a total misconception (UrisStar, you're gonna love this one :P):
Jesus's Teaching on Hell (http://gospelthemes.com/hell.htm)

Yes, that is in more associated to what you would fine in the bible if you study it the way it should be study. Even when speaking of heaven, it is even more than what the bishop is trying to put into words. If the bible was actually taught like it should, it would be hard press to backup/justify wars and revenge killing along with a host of many things we call civilized behaviors. I would even go as far as to say society as we know it would be one that works for all mankind. The teachings as they stand is what has contribute to the misery of the known world, and the so-called holy books if not seen through the right mind/thought are only distraction to prevent us from knowing who we really are. They prevent one from living their true life and opt for a yoke of pure bondage.:eviltongu

Good find endersgirl07.:wave:

[sayyadina_SC]

Yeah, "Heaven is a place on Earth". Simple, as a pop-song. Sure, I've met (protestant) Christians who believed they were going to heaven, but they were most often children. Adult Christians seems to have a more mature understanding of the symbolic language in the bible, and realises not everything is either easy or meant to be taken literally. Not being a Christian myself I believe the afterlife to be pretty non-existing. Everything is energy.

[davious]

to me, it a very simply deconstruction of one verse in Revelations that as a Christian, seems to back up the bishop.

Revelations 21:1
21:1 I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth have passed away, and the sea is no more.


Now, as a Christian, I ask myself...why would God need to create a new heaven and a new Earth? Well, that answer is clear in the next line of the verse...the old heaven and Earth have passed away. That clearly demonstrates that the initial heaven I believe I will go to as a believer in Christ is temporary in nature, that at the time of God's choosing, He will redo creation, creating a new heaven and new Earth. Obviously necessary, since the old versions "pass away". Bishop seems right on the money with that, the wording of the verse certainly implies a temporary heaven that will come before eternal heaven...The rest of the verses tell us God will dwell among us, there will be no death, etc, but the key verse for the Bishop's point is verse 1. It clearly demonstrates that there are two heavens, with the first one being impermanent, and the second one being the permanent eternal paradise. Seems pretty obvious to me.

[frankie]

There will always be misinterpretations, regardless. :)

[ChihoSan]

There will always be misinterpretations, regardless. :)

Agreed. Things get lost in translations, so as far as I'm concerned no one can ever be really sure. The best you can do is look at the information in front of you, make a decision as to what you believe is true, and go with it. I can't imagine God would hold that against people.

The bible has been passed down so long through different languages that the original message is probably a lot different. Like that game telephone.

[callistra]

The New Testament is Jewish? That is BULL SH**T. I stopped reading there. Unbelievable comment to blame Jews for Christians being mixed up by taking something entirely Christian and trying to associate it with Judaism.. which it is NOT.

[Anyerfillag]

There will always be misinterpretations, regardless :)

Only if you judge them to be misjudgements; we all have different views about issues etc and will always say that someone who has read the same thing we have and thinks different has misjudged or misread them. What you believe is true could be called a misjudgement or misreading by someone else.

Just playing Devils Advocate here ;)

[Endersgirl07]

The New Testament is Jewish? That is BULL SH**T. I stopped reading there. Unbelievable comment to blame Jews for Christians being mixed up by taking something entirely Christian and trying to associate it with Judaism.. which it is NOT.

Um... WHAT? I didn't see him blaming Jews for anything. Maybe if you had read further you might have understood what he meant. And you don't think it even had any connotation with Judaism? After all, was Jesus not a Jewish man?

I'm not sure how offended I should be by that post... or for which party.

[davious]

Christianity was born out of Judaism, by Jews, who felt that Christ was the Messiah talked about in the Old Testament. Isn't that really common knowledge? The Jewish God Yahweh is Jehovah, God the Father in the Christian Trinity (Christ and the Holy Spirit being the other two aspects of the same God, not 3 separate deities). Saying that the New Testament was written from a Jewish perspective is not inaccurate at all, as it was Jews who wrote it. It was not written in Hebrew, it was written in Greek for the most part, but, anyone who wants to claim that the New Testament is not directly influenced by Jewish culture and the Torah are kidding themselves, as those who wrote it were not only directly influenced by Jewish culture, they were part of Jewish culture.

Either way, it makes total sense that John, when he wrote the Book of Revelations, and the passage about a new heaven and a new earth, would be influenced by his own culture. No need to get pissy about it, Callistra, the New Testament HAS to be heavily influenced by Jewish culture. Considering how it came to be, it would have to be.