Mod The Sims - Romanian and Bulgarian Roma (gypsies)

jooxis

27th Aug 2010, 02:11 PM

Yeah my country is full of Roma and so many current social issues revolve around them and issues relating to them etc...

It IS a problem. There are many possible solutions, but none are being enforced.

They are completely isolated from the rest of society in this city.
They speak their own language, refuse to send their kids to school, they build their shacks under bridges (illegally), earn most of their money from begging, stealing and collecting trash/recycling it. None of this is my "opinion" it is just how it is.

The law normally doesn't apply to them. Roma people can blatantly abuse their children and animals in public, I witness it every day and no one cares. One of the most shocking things I've seen was a Roma kid (practically a toddler, only a few years old) walking around holding a small infant in one of his arms, while kicking and fighting with another small child with no parents in sight.
A child. Holding a newborn baby with one arm. While physically fighting with another child. No parents anywhere. And the people who were passing in the streets? No one cared. "They're gypsies, it's typical, it's their lifestyle". They never get arrested for child abuse because the law doesn't care about their kids anymore than it does about them.
Roma parents let their kids start smoking when they're toddlers. I consider that child abuse but no one cares.
I'm not even gonna get started on the animal abuse, there was a horrible incident just last week.

Unfortunately, I've only had bad experience with them myself even though that probably sounds racist to most of you. They threaten me in the streets by throwing rocks, they steal my food straight from my hands and they grab me and push me when I say I don't want to give them money. Just a few weeks ago one of them tried to steal my bag. I'm sure or a lot of them are nice people but as I've been living in a city with them for decades - I will say there's at least some truth to the stereotype. There are obviously some barbaric activities being promoted within their local culture and I would like to see that change through the generations.

Western Europe tends to send their gypsies to the Balkans, I guess they don't want to deal with those problems.

I think something has to be done. They NEED to send their kids to school. They NEED to get real jobs and legal places of residence and assimilate better into society. This is something that both the government and the Roma have to put effort into.

Oaktree

27th Aug 2010, 04:49 PM

I don't think it is racist to point out that people with few attachments to the land they live in are more likely to commit crimes. People who own their own land are typically more law-abiding because they have an invested interest in the community. Not all people who don't own land break the law, but, if there are other problems like inability to find jobs and social stigma, it only increases the odds.

I have heard from friends who traveled to Europe who had their purses and wallets snatched by gypsies. It seems to be a matter of common sense to be somewhat wary of your possessions when you are around them. It's terrible to have to assume that members of a particular race are a certain way, but it is better to be safe than sorry.

Rawra

27th Aug 2010, 04:53 PM

Nekowolf

27th Aug 2010, 07:06 PM

From the sounds of it, it can be equated to the problem of illegal immigrants from Mexico coming into the southern US.

Edit: Sort of.

el_flel

27th Aug 2010, 11:23 PM

The strange thing is that if they are anything like the Romanies (Gypsies) that live here in the UK they have much stricter moral code for example than most other groups! They have a bad name because they are 'different' - they don't conform to the 'usual' expected way of living and as a rule people are suspicious and condemning of anything 'different'.This is true. The main problems we have with them are that they will settle in places they simply aren't allowed to settle, such as school playing fields, and leave the places in a big mess, and they have a reputation for kicking off when there are big groups of them. My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding was very insightful, I thought (google it if you haven't heard of it), because it showed you the sides of their community that you don't often hear about because all you hear is criticism.

crocobaura

28th Aug 2010, 01:19 AM

Ok, sooo... my aunt currently lives in France. I guess you heard, or not, about France's gypsy problems. They sent them away to Bulgaria and to Romania, but they still want to come back. I'm NOT racist, just saying. They steal, they beg, they rape. And Nicolas Sarcoszy (can't spell it :rolleyes: ) can't really do anything about it? What's your opinion? :report:

Well, bribing them off with 300 euros to leave the country won't help for sure. The cost of living is as high in Romania and Bulgaria as is in France and the Romanian and Bulgarian governments certainly didn't give them money as an incentive to move to France or elsewhere. They are poor people and they move where they find better living conditions, simple as that. Maybe Sarkozy should try giving them jobs, might tempt them into becoming law abiding citizens.

tizerist

28th Aug 2010, 01:43 AM

Mistermook

28th Aug 2010, 10:56 AM

So poor people without permanent housing and jobs are a problem in places. Amazing.

Sorry, still looks like bigotry from where I'm sitting at, where people wag their fingers at a culture/people as "bad" without acknowledging that some of the things could be cultural differences, some of them are absolutely indicative of poverty and class issues, and the rest show up all the time with marginalized minorities of all flavors. Absolutely the same bad taste in my mouth listening to Europeans talk about the gypsies as I do listening to white supremacists in Texas talking about how "niggers and spics" are shiftless, no good, drug-using criminals who beat their wives and then trying to rationalize it by supporting it with "but they do! They're really like that!"

Maybe they are, but so would you if you lived nowhere, had no job, and people thought you were filth. At that point you've got nothing to lose by doing anything.

Nekowolf

28th Aug 2010, 11:43 AM

Is there anything you have to back that up?

Rawra

28th Aug 2010, 11:46 AM

We have a different type in UK (although we have those ones as well - they're very distinctive) where I once saw a family of 5 walking down a busy high street, and the youngest one, about 5 years old, pulled down her pants and had a dump outside a shop store. The mother turned round and waited for her while the kid sprinted back to her. Didn't bat an eyelid.
Different cultures have different ways of life and all, but that was just shocking.

Actually, in the middle of the day, in a park, I saw a gypsy kid who was about 12 yrs old, and he just peed near my bench. I didn't want to say anything, because I was only with my sister, and they were a big group.
My personal opinion? Go back to India, gypsies! :rofl:

ElementMK

28th Aug 2010, 12:00 PM

It's really the smiley rolling with laughter that pulled that post together. You mentioned a few days ago that your opinions are "weird", but I'm catching an ever-stronger whiff of racism and narrow-mindedness. I shouldn't even have to explain why that's a racist and cruel thing to say.

Your opinion should be backed up with some semblance of knowledge or true experience, but it seems you're going off of "well, I saw this" or "well, I heard this". You're not going to make any friends with that train of thought, so please try to reevaluate what you're going to say by observing the tone of the thread and by backing up your opinions with actual reasoning. Hell, it doesn't even have to be backed up by facts. Pretty easy, right?

Peace.and.Chaos

28th Aug 2010, 04:36 PM

I have lived near a gypsy community for about 14 years, even met some of them and I will say, some of them are OK. They work, send their kids to school etc.

But...most of them have their own lifestyle and when they sit around doing nothing just popping babies and waiting for welfare to 'help' them working people are just disgruntled.

In Romania, life is hard, some find it hard to pay their bills even with decent salaries (which aren't that much), you can't have a 'dream job' you have to get a traditional one in order to survive, corruption is everywhere. So please understand us when we say that our tax money would be better spent on health care or other pressing problems.

They unfortunately made themselves look bad...

And what angers me the most is that everyone accuses us of being racists (Madonna called us that when she had a concert here last year). Then why won't the French or other countries offer them homes and jobs, considering that they are so much powerful than us, the Eastern Europe countries?

It's easier to point the finger at somebody.

Mistermook

28th Aug 2010, 04:55 PM

Everyone, no matter where they are, should be doing something to combat poverty. And racism.

Peace.and.Chaos

28th Aug 2010, 05:28 PM

Mistermook-I agree with you 100%. What I was trying to explain in that reply was that it is not easy to do so. Especially when there are so many other issues that people and the Government face every single day.

Besides, it's not like we aren't doing anything-we are. There are associations and social workers that really put a lot of effort in what they do.

Peace.and.Chaos

28th Aug 2010, 06:02 PM

Wojtek-Yes they will, they said so. They get more money there by begging.

pinketamine

29th Aug 2010, 02:13 AM

The problem is not that they are Roma or gypsies or *insert whatever cultural group*, they are people who come from their country, try to live their lifes as good as they can and that's all. Of course there are always some conflictive members, but it doesn't mean that all gypsies "rape, beg and steal". And when they get to a new country, they find a lot of discrimination, which always makes things more difficult if you want to live quietly.
It should maybe be analized too if they are socially marginated groups, because marginal groups tend to be more conflictive, no matter the culture.

appelsapgodin

29th Aug 2010, 04:10 PM

From wikipedia:World War II
Main article: Porajmos

During World War II, the Nazis embarked on systematic attempt at genocide of the Romanies, known as the Porajmos.[51] They were marked for extermination and sentenced to forced labor and imprisonment in concentration camps. They were often killed on sight, especially by the Einsatzgruppen (mobile killing units) on the Eastern Front. The total number of victims has been variously estimated at between 220,000 to 1,500,000; even the lowest number would count as one of the largest mass murders in history.

Post-1945

In Communist Eastern Europe, Romanies experienced assimilation schemes and restrictions of cultural freedom. The Romani language and Romani music were banned from public performance in Bulgaria. In Czechoslovakia, they were labeled a "socially degraded stratum," and Romani women were sterilized as part of a state policy to reduce their population. This policy was implemented with large financial incentives, threats of denying future welfare payments, with misinformation, or after administering drugs (Silverman 1995; Helsinki Watch 1991). An official inquiry from the Czech Republic, resulting in a report (December 2005), concluded that the Communist authorities had practiced an assimilation policy towards Romanies, which "included efforts by social services to control the birth rate in the Romani community" and that "the problem of sexual sterilization carried out in the Czech Republic, either with improper motivation or illegally, exists"[52] with new revealed cases up until 2004, in both the Czech Republic and Slovakia.[53]
I really, really don't feel like getting into this discussion. But I went to read a bit about Romani on Wikipedia. And well reading this I'm really not surprised they don't trust 'us' (white western supremacists) and want to hold on to their own nomadic culture and believes.

Mistermook

29th Aug 2010, 08:08 PM

The Gypsies have no country.
Everyone's from somewhere. Barring a few nutcases in my own country's conservative wing's wishes, most international conventions assume that you're at least a citizen of whatever country you're born in regardless of your recognition of the country's laws or the country's reluctance to admit you as one of their own. They might not have documentation, but they're not from nowhere and they're not without country.

To actually be without country is a specific indicator: You've been actively rejected by your homeland (either by your own intent or exile) and you've been rejected by your host country... And if that's what's going on over their in your country with gypsies then I don't know how you could possibly defend it as anything other than racism.

WayBack

29th Aug 2010, 08:23 PM

In Czechoslovakia, they were labeled a "socially degraded stratum," and Romani women were sterilized as part of a state policy to reduce their population. This policy was implemented with large financial incentives, threats of denying future welfare payments, with misinformation, or after administering drugs (Silverman 1995; Helsinki Watch 1991). An official inquiry from the Czech Republic, resulting in a report (December 2005), concluded that the Communist authorities had practiced an assimilation policy towards Romanies, which "included efforts by social services to control the birth rate in the Romani community" and that "the problem of sexual sterilization carried out in the Czech Republic, either with improper motivation or illegally, exists"[52] with new revealed cases up until 2004, in both the Czech Republic and Slovakia.

A little explanation: in the communistic Czechoslovakia, it wasn't popular to use birth control. You were expected to give birth to a new generation of proletarians. If people were married, children were a blessing so why use any protection? Trying to use contraception gave you a stigma, a man buying condoms was a filthy pig, a woman using pills was obviously a whore. So most of the people just used the old "pull out" method.

The result was many unwanted kids and a number of abortions but they were frowned upon and again, gave the woman a social stigma. If the woman decided for the abortion, she had to go through a stressful and embarrassing process when she and the members of her family were interviewed by a special committee to which the woman had to prove why exactly she couldn't afford to have a child and why the abortion was the only option for her. And even then, many times the committee refused to give her the permission.

Now that I gave you the basic idea of how the things were back in the days, I'm finally getting to the point, that is to the sterilization. When a woman, ANY woman (not just a gypsy) reached the number of four kids or three abortions (not exact number, but you get the idea, simply too many), usually her doctor suggested her the option of sterilization. Many women happily agreed because they were sick of being breeding machines. If the woman knew that her husband wouldn't accept the idea of sterilization, sometimes the doctor even agreed to lie to the woman's husband (and to the authorities) to protect her. He stated that the birth was complicated and the sterilization was the only option to save the woman's life.

Before the process of sterilization, the woman had to sign a paper confirming that she agreed with the sterilization and was informed about the irreversible result of the surgery.

Many years after the revolution, one gypsy woman sued her hospital that they sterilized her without informing her properly about the process. As the paper was signed without a lawyer (as nobody cared about lawyers back in the days), there was no way to legally prove that the woman was fully informed so she won the process and got her money. Suddenly there was an influx of gypsy women claiming that they were not informed and wanted the financial compensation too. Anyone suggesting that the money was the real motivation, was immediately accused of racism.

Perhaps this little information gives a new light to the whole thing.

Mistermook

29th Aug 2010, 10:32 PM

Just to remind you a country is a political, territorial and obligatory organization of the society. The Gypsies have no territory, no leadership, no political forces and no laws. They're not organized in any way.
And all that's irrelevant.

As an occupant of a country you don't have to be organized, exert leadership, or keep up with politics in any way at all to be covered by that country's laws, politics, and authority. You don't get a choice in the matter, in fact. Unless you're in the position of fighting a war to exert your own authority and get a population to recognize that authority, you're a member of that country. This is regardless of whether you recognize that authority or whether Polish and French people want to admit that there are Polish and French gypsies.

We've got something along the same lines going on here, with Republican conservatives in the US wanting to kick out American babies that were born to illegal immigrants. I understand the argument, I just don't agree with it because it's inconsistent with law and logic. People do not "not have a country" unless for some reason their country they used to have is in legal limbo - Yugoslavia breaks up, for instance, and suddenly everyone has to scramble to be a part of another nation.

fakepeeps7

29th Aug 2010, 11:02 PM

People do not "not have a country" unless for some reason their country they used to have is in legal limbo - Yugoslavia breaks up, for instance, and suddenly everyone has to scramble to be a part of another nation.

Or if they're born in international waters or airspace...

Mistermook

29th Aug 2010, 11:58 PM

The Gypsies live in European countries but have no country on their own. They are called 'landless' people.
It doesn't matter if they have their own country or what they're called colloquially. Legally they have a country.
Or if they're born in international waters or airspace...
You still derive country of origin from your parents, regardless of where you are.

MaydayParade

30th Aug 2010, 01:17 AM

I've been reading through this arguement and it's pretty split. Where I live there is a large gypsy community. They don't steal or attack but I have seen many cases of children and animals being abused. My mother is a social worker and most of the days its dealing with the same families. The amount of times I've witnessed child abuse, well it's more than I'd like it to be. The other day while I was running some errands in town I saw a father slap, kick and punch his 5 or 6 year old daughter, no-one batted an eye, but I'm pretty sure if the attacker was white he would of been arrested. But some of the animal abuse I've seen is just shocking, most of it is to upsetting to repeat. I know there is the whole gypsys are dangerous and steal and rape, but my mother was working with a young Polish women who was learning English and taking night classes, she also works to support her little girl, sometimes I babysit, she is a lovely person despite what she's been through. She's trying to earn and rent a flat. She is trying not to live off benefits all her life and I really admire her for that,

Sorry for my random going off on one kind of thing, it's 1:15am in the UK so yeah, my brain is a bit wobbly :)

pinketamine

30th Aug 2010, 01:14 PM

Now back to topic: The problem is really serious and no cultural or tribal rules can excuse child or animal abuse.

Yes, nothing can excuse child or animal abuse, nor torture, nor rape... but that is not something specific about gypsies, so I don't see why it is relevant.
Some gypsies rape or abuse their children, some blacks do it, some asians do it, some PEOPLE in the world do it.
I still believe that it is not "because they're gypsies", it's because there are always individual persons who do bad things. And it is because they are poor and socially marginated. And it has been tested that these kind of human groups (marginated groups) tend to have a higher criminality rate.
They move from the country they are born in to a new one because they think their lifes will be better that way. In the EU you can move freely, so they have their right to go to France or where they want.

Mistermook

30th Aug 2010, 05:32 PM

Unfortunately their living conditions do not improve.
So... you stop trying to improve them? What? I'm trying to understand your point. People live in miserable conditions with lots of crime, inhumane treatment for children and animals, and... what? It sounds a lot like you keep going back to implying it's all the gypsies fault.

fakepeeps7

30th Aug 2010, 07:01 PM

You still derive country of origin from your parents, regardless of where you are.

I'm not sure if that's entirely true. I heard a story on the news about a baby who was born while flying into Canada. I think it got Canadian citizenship (and the parents weren't Canadian). I'm not sure if they were actually over Canada at the time or just heading there. In any case, the baby ended up with a different citizenship than its parents (or, depending on where they were from, maybe they ended up with dual citizenship).

Doesn't the U.S. have a similar law? Isn't that part of one of the laws some Republicans are trying to change so they can keep out more immigrants?

paksetti

30th Aug 2010, 07:11 PM

Doesn't the U.S. have a similar law? Isn't that part of one of the laws some Republicans are trying to change so they can keep out more immigrants?

No, you don't get your citizenship from your parents- they can have a different nationality, but if you're born into the United States, you're automatically a US citizen.

fakepeeps7

30th Aug 2010, 07:54 PM

No, you don't get your citizenship from your parents- they can have a different nationality, but if you're born into the United States, you're automatically a US citizen.

That's what I meant. :)

Oaktree

30th Aug 2010, 08:57 PM

You are an American citizen if you are born in the country or if at least one of your parents is a citizen. It may be that you can temporarily have dual citizenship due to being born in another country, but I don't think you can maintain that dual citizenship for very long. You would probably have to have your citizenship narrowed down by the time you reach adulthood, if not sooner. I'm not positive, but I believe the only country for which you can have a permanent dual citizenship with US citizenship is Israel.

paksetti

30th Aug 2010, 09:17 PM

That's what I meant. :)

I see. My bad then. :D

amaca

31st Aug 2010, 12:28 AM

I'm originally from the Czech republic and we have a problem with them. When I was younger I tried to protect them, because I thought my parents are just being racists and don't wanna give them a real chance. But unfortunatelly as I was getting older I could see what my parents had on mind. I don't say that all of them are bad, which wouldn't be true, but most of them are behaving let's say strangely. What I mind about them at most and was already mentioned above is they don't really try to fit in our community. They don't want to work, they don't want to speak our language, they don't want to send their children to school. And what's funny about it is the fact that they are gypsies is protecting them. Because when we say anything againts them - we become a racists and then everybody tries to help them. If I wasn't looking after my children properly or didn't send them to school my neighbours would make sure that the social workers are gonna come and no one would say a word simply cause that can't be a racism because I am a Czech. That is not fair. Also I don't think that we didn't try to help them. Our government built for them a number of buildings, all furnished, everything brand new. What they do? They sell what they can - the windows including, what they can't sell they use as a firewood or simply destroy. Then after some time they start to protest that we make them live in unhabitable conditions. And we do what? Give them another new build to destroy because we don't want to be judged as the racists. And that's why they are living happily in Czech republic.

grumpy_otter

31st Aug 2010, 01:24 AM

I spent a summer in Italy about 10 years ago and was warned to watch out for the gypsies who would steal from you. I lived in a small town, so it wasn't a problem there, but my first trip to Florence, I experienced it first hand. Two cute girls would come up and start talking to you and gesturing, while a third would try to lift your wallet. I carried my valuables safely, but others in my group lost things.

I was shocked on my first day in Florence when I saw a richly dressed woman kick a toddler away while she was sitting at a fountain. He was a cute little guy in a little sack of a dress, and my liberal heart bled for him and decried her upper class insensitivity. However, after being mobbed numerous times by groups of up to ten small children running their hands all over my lower body, removing anything they could get off me--I understood her point.

I don't understand the culture, so I can't say what needs to be done. But it does seem that this (like some perpetual welfare communities in the US) is something that needs to be stopped before more kids grow up thinking this is the way humans should behave.

Mistermook

31st Aug 2010, 04:14 AM

I'm not sure if that's entirely true. I heard a story on the news about a baby who was born while flying into Canada. I think it got Canadian citizenship (and the parents weren't Canadian). I'm not sure if they were actually over Canada at the time or just heading there. In any case, the baby ended up with a different citizenship than its parents (or, depending on where they were from, maybe they ended up with dual citizenship).
Things to consider:

A. Identity matters a lot in the law, so you never want anyone to be, as Wojtek seems to, without a country. Those people wouldn't be legal occupants anywhere and they'd have no legal structure to ask to appeal on their behalf for application of international law.

B. A child suddenly "appearing" without all this legal dancing would automatically be in a country illegally if the host country didn't provide nationality. It didn't travel with a correct passport, right? On paper that could look a lot like smuggling a human, which obviously wouldn't be the case in the court of common sense.

C. Without parentage nationality, it couldn't be issued a passport BACK to the parent's country of origin if it weren't assumed to have a right to be in that country. Pregnant citizens couldn't dare travel, else they be separated from their children as they were seized by customs.

Citizenship is a different animal than nationality law. Nationality is an indicator for potential for citizenship. Generally one derives nationality and asserts/rewards citizenship.

Oaktree

31st Aug 2010, 02:42 PM

Wojtek: So you are referring to gypsies as a whole? If that is the case, the same can be said for every other nationality. I'm half Irish, but my country of origin is not Ireland. I am from the United States. In Ireland, there are people with heritage from other countries as well. You can take that to mean that the Irish don't really have their own country because some of them are not native to Ireland and there are people with non-Irish heritage that are native to Ireland. Every country is like that. Countries are no longer strictly divided by ethnicity. The world is open and people are allowed to live almost anywhere.

Mistermook

31st Aug 2010, 04:18 PM

Poland didn't exist as a separate nation for some years before 1918 while it was part of other nations. Did Polish people cease to exist as an ethnic/cultural background because they were officially citizens of other countries? The Jewish people had no homeland before the creation of Israel for thousands of years, and the differences in the cultural and ethnic background of the branches of Judaism are probably even more striking than gypsies. So did the the Jews of Europe and the Middle East and the Americas have no country before 1947, or were they citizens of their respective nations existing as an ethnic minority in those states? If Poland suffered a plague in Europe that killed every Polish person in Poland, the nation dissolved and given over to some other nation as a protectorate, would the Polish immigrants of the US suddenly not be Polish Americans?

What you're saying makes absolutely no sense. You don't have to have a nation to have a culture. You don't have to share ethnicity to share a culture. You don't lose your culture when you lose your nation, and you don't have to have a majority to have a culture. You don't even have to speak the same language. This "but they're all over the place" thing you keep repeating is completely irrelevant.

amaca

31st Aug 2010, 04:40 PM

I think what Wojtek tries to say is that there is no official Gypsy land, republic or united states of gypsies. There is a little bit of them everywhere.

TRIriana

31st Aug 2010, 06:08 PM

There are English people in England as well as many other ethnic minorities. The government is English because it's England and the only respected and recognized government is the English one.

I would just like to point out that we have a British government, for the British citizens not an English government. There hasn't been an English government since James VI of Scotland took the throne. I'm not pointing this out due to semantics; there's a very specific difference between British and English.

Oaktree

31st Aug 2010, 06:47 PM

I'm not saying that Ireland doesn't exist; I'm saying that the Irish people do not exclusively own any piece of land. The government does not belong to the majority because the minority can still impact the government, and any fair government would protect the interests of all of its people. The English government is English in the sense that it belongs to the country of England, but it is not English in the sense of belonging to those who have English heritage. In terms of heritage, it is owned by a mixture of people. Anyone who lives there owns a little piece of the English government. If you point to a map and tell me that there is a country specifically owned by those with English heritage and only by those with English heritage, you would be wrong. The same applies to every other country.

The gypsies can have land if they would decide to buy it in whatever nation they live in. They might not be a majority, but they would be the same as, say, a Black family owning land in the United States. The family would still own the land and have a say in the government, meaning that that nation is their home. Don't you think it's a little outdated (and racist) to take land away from some country or countries in order to give land to a specific ethnicity (namely the gypsies)? Because that seems to be what you are suggesting the solution is. I mean, I think we should support Israel now that it's there, but if the same situation came up today, I don't think we could ethically take that land away to give to a specific race. Countries are integrated now, and whether you are the minority or the majority in the particular country you live in has little meaning. Governments try to protect the interests of all of their people. If the gypsies would settle down and become law-abiding citizens, they would be treated just the same as any other citizen.

Nekowolf

31st Aug 2010, 07:17 PM

I sort of wanted to stay out of this, but I'll say this.

I'm a little surprised to hear you of all people actually defending governments. Unfortunately...you're only half-right.

Take this for example: "If the gypsies would settle down and become law-abiding citizens, they would be treated just the same as any other citizen." - you are right...in some countries.

Don't forgot that until the 60s, black citizens, here in the US, who could own land, were treated very differently, both by their fellow citizens and by the government itself. Simply owning land does not mean you are treated with respect. Nor, in some countries, would it mean you DO have a say. In some countries, even land-owners have no say in the government, aside from the wealthiest and most powerful. I'm not saying this is how it is in countries like France; just that countries like this do, or have, exist(ed).

pinketamine

31st Aug 2010, 08:39 PM

I agree with you Nekowolf. I don't think some countries are even trying to "help" this people to be citizens. They just don't care about them until something bad happens.

Don't you think it's a little outdated (and racist) to take land away from some country or countries in order to give land to a specific ethnicity (namely the gypsies)? Because that seems to be what you are suggesting the solution is. I mean, I think we should support Israel now that it's there, but if the same situation came up today, I don't think we could ethically take that land away to give to a specific race.

I agree with you that separating coutries now for ethnic reasons does not make sense, but honestly, I do not have any reason to support Israel, and won't do it, never, but that is part of a different debate.
Anyway, I understand that you meant that creating a "Gypsie-land" (not being disrespectful, just don't know which name to give it) would not make any sense. Which piece of land would you get, to start with? And what we should try nowadays is not separating ethnicities, but trying to integrate people in the country they want to leave.

Oaktree

31st Aug 2010, 09:31 PM

I wasn't trying to falsify your words. I simply didn't see where else you might be going with your talk about how the gypsies don't have their own country. You have repeatedly stated the problem without attempting to state a solution, so I was trying to extrapolate the solution you seemed to be getting at. I'm sorry if that wasn't what you were getting at. I think you and I agree to a large degree. I think that the gypsies should follow the laws, and I think that their current problems are largely (though not entirely) a matter of their own choices. If they started sending their children to school so that they could get legal work, it would improve their situation vastly. They would probably still deal with some amount of social stigma even after they begin to settle down, which is a social problem, but their lot would still be vastly improved.

geallach

1st Sep 2010, 01:53 AM

I agree with what Wojtek has said so far. Certain Roma would not consider themselves to have a nationality; if you asked them, they would say they are Roma. Technically they do come from somewhere, as do we all, but they consider themselves as members of the Roma people, not as nationals from a particular country.

We Europeans live with this on a daily basis, we hear each other's news, we know what is happening. Many governments do try to help the Roma ( I would be reluctant to use the word "gypsy", as I understand some Roma people do find it offensive), but what can they do about those who do not want to be helped? No one is by any means saying that all Roma are like this, not at all. But you cannot force help onto people. If, for example, a government tried to force those Roma children who, by their parents' wishes do not go to school, that government would be accused of disrespecting their culture and of being racist.

In the capital city of my country, people being harassed and attacked by Roma is propotionately very high, and it is not racist for anyone to point this out. The reason is not that there are lots of bad Roma people, but because there is a fear of being accused of racism if anyone attempts to bring that minority of them to justice. It is not that people do not care what happens to them, or their children, but governments and peoples of European nations do not know what avenue to take, when many steps to help have been taken, and do not seem to work.

The French government is not deporting Roma because they are racist, and it is not because they have not tried to help; to say so is to over-simplify a very complex issue.

Finally, this whole thing has nothing to do whatsoever with "white supremacy": Roma are our fellow Europeans, and, as Wojtek said, are of the same racial group.

Oaktree

1st Sep 2010, 02:55 AM

geallach: I don't know how it is in Europe, but in the US, unless you are legally home-schooling your child, if you don't send your child to school, you will probably have your children taken away by social services. I imagine a lot of Roma children aren't in the legal system, so it could be hard to do anything about it, but my point is that the government is perfectly capable of forcing the children of other people to go to school, so for it to make an exception for Roma people is silly. People are forced to assimilate to a certain degree when they live in a society. They must follow the laws, and the laws often include mandatory schooling for children. It isn't disrespecting anyone's culture, it is a matter of people following the laws in the area they choose to live in. And just because a culture has a certain practice associated with it, doesn't mean that that practice is holy and should be protected. To use the most extreme example, it isn't disrespectful of a culture practicing human sacrifice to charge members who do so with murder. That is a cultural practice that has no place in any society. Even if it is a part of the Roma culture to abuse children and animals and to beg and steal, there is no place in society for these practices. I don't believe that all Roma hold those things as cultural values, so I don't think that the argument can be made in the first place that those supposed aspects of their culture can be excused.

drew12

1st Sep 2010, 04:33 AM

hi i want to make friends wth u guys..

Purity4

1st Sep 2010, 06:09 PM

I just looked them up on wiki because I don't know a whole lot and was afraid the biased opinion in this thread would mess with my head.

Rromani (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people)

I especially found the subject on their origin quite interesting. The clear ethnic difference does suggest they can be called a different race than the whiter eastern europeans, since the rromani originated in central India and their possible genetic connection to the Jat people from northern India and Pakistan, and there certainly have been cases of racism against the people of India. But what I was thinking at this point doesn't even come near to the horrible truth of the history of racism against the Romani people.

When the Romani people arrived in Europe, curiosity was soon followed by hostility and xenophobia. Romanies were enslaved for five centuries in Wallachia and Moldavia until abolition in 1856.[49] Elsewhere in Europe, they were subject to ethnic cleansing, abduction of their children, and forced labor. In England, there were hangings and expulsions of the Romani; in France, branding and the shaving of heads; in Moravia and Bohemia severing of ears of women. As a result, large groups of the Romani travelled back East, towards Poland, which was more tolerant, and Russia, where the Romani were also treated less heavy-handedly, as long as they paid the annual taxes.

It seems to me that first a war, then racism, is what brought about the traveling nature of this ethnic group.

But the racism wasn't over yet.

The first and one of the most enduring persecutions against the Romani people was the enslaving of the Romanies who arrived on the territory of the historical Romanian states of Wallachia and Moldavia, which lasted from the 14th century until the second half of the 19th century. Legislation decreed that all the Romanies living in these states, as well as any others who would immigrate there, were slaves

One example of official persecution of the Romani is exemplified by the The Great Roundup of Spanish Romanies (Gitanos) in 1749. The Spanish monarchy ordered a nationwide raid that led to separation of families and placement of all able-bodied men into forced labor camps.

I can't imagine, after such horrific treatment over the years, that if I were Romani, I would want to assimilate and be associated with the societies who had committed such atrocities against my people. I would have a hard time forgiving.

The persecution of the Romanies reached a peak during World War II in the Porajmos, the genocide perpetrated by the Nazis during the Holocaust. In 1935, the Nuremberg laws stripped the Romani people living in Nazi Germany of their citizenship, after which they were subjected to violence, imprisonment in concentration camps and later genocide in extermination camps. The policy was extended in areas occupied by the Nazis during the war, and it was also applied by their allies, notably the Independent State of Croatia, Romania and Hungary.

So the Nazis weren't just doing these horribly inhumane things to the Jewish people, but to the Romanis as well. Why do we not hear about this in our history classes?

Post-1945
In Communist Eastern Europe, Romanies experienced assimilation schemes and restrictions of cultural freedom. The Romani language and Romani music were banned from public performance in Bulgaria. In Czechoslovakia, they were labeled a "socially degraded stratum," and Romani women were sterilized as part of a state policy to reduce their population.

Then there is the section which discusses forced assimilation between 1740 and 1896. :(

And current racism against these people:
Amnesty International reports continued instances of Antizigan discrimination during the 2000s, particularly in Bulgaria, Romania, Slovakia, Hungary, Slovenia, and Kosovo.
Czechoslovakia carried out a policy of sterilization of Romani women, starting in 1973. The dissidents of the Charter 77 denounced it in 1977-78 as a "genocide", but the practice continued through the Velvet Revolution of 1989. A 2005 report by the Czech government's independent ombudsman, Otakar Motejl, identified dozens of cases of coercive sterilization between 1979 and 2001, and called for criminal investigations and possible prosecution against several health care workers and administrators.

In 2008, following the brutal murder of a woman in Rome at the hands of a young man from a local Romani encampment, the Italian government declared that Italy's Romani population represented a national security risk and that swift action was required to address the emergenza nomadi (nomad emergency). Specifically, officials in the Italian government accused the Romanies of being responsible for rising crime rates in urban areas.
In the summer of 2010 French authorities demolished at least 51 illegal Roma camps and began the process of repatriating their residents to their countries of origin. This followed tensions between the French state and Roma communities heightened after French police shot and killed a 22 year old Roma and armed local travellers attacked and pillaged the village of Saint-Aignan. The French government has been accused of perpetrating these actions to pursue its political agenda.

Kosova Roma Oral History (http://http://www.balkanproject.org/roma/interviews.shtml)

Lemon&Lime

1st Sep 2010, 07:17 PM

Unfortunately I've only ever had negative experiences with gypsies. There were a couple of gypsies who lived near my old place of work, which was a supermarket - the only one for several miles around, so the customer count was very high.

I got promoted to checkout supervisor, and I was working one saturday afternoon when one of my checkout staff told me I had to go and see the sweets/chocolate isle because a Roma gypsy woman with her children were there causing trouble. I went to have a look, and they were just walking out of the isle towards the checkouts holding some sweets. One of the children just let something they decided they didn't want fall to the floor as they went to pay. The rest of the isle looked like a bomb had gone off. Whole rows of chocolates and sweets had been taken off the shelves onto the floor so that in some parts they were empty, and there were open packets of sweets all over the floor, including some ball-shaped sweets rolling around which were making a hazard. All of the shelves were within range of say, a small child. The woman had about 5 with her. Fortunately, it was all on CCTV. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to go and confront the woman and tell her she had to pay for all of those things because I had spotted an adult taking money from some kids and that adult was in the queue to buy alcohol, which needed my attention more.

I think a couple of them got banned from entering the shop because of incidents like the above happening. There were lots of other incidents as well; for example while out with her friends my little sister was GIVEN a dog and the kids walked off leaving her with it. We took the dog to an animal shelter, because if they didn't want it and we couldn't have it, where else would the poor thing go?

By the way, I recommend everyone watch "My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding", its a documentary about gypsies culture and attitudes, but focusing on several weddings which are one of the few times a year they all come together. These are Irish gypsies I think though, they're white and very Catholic.

Tempscire

1st Sep 2010, 08:59 PM

I find it interesting that whenever I read an online discussion of the Roma, it is very, very easy to tell the Europeans from the Americans. It's all practical experience versus theoretical idealism.

TRIriana

1st Sep 2010, 09:02 PM

Moreover they do indeed belong to the white people because they originated in India.

I don't know whether it's misunderstanding on my part or bad wording on your part, or a mixture of the two; but they [the Roma] belong to the white people? In what sense do you mean this?

pinketamine

1st Sep 2010, 09:31 PM

Well, I'm from Spain, and I live in a "not rich" neighbourhood, with a big Gypsie community, gitanos, as Purity4 said. I have had some bad experiences with them, like being noisy sometimes during the night, or saying offensive "compliments", but I have had those problems with non-gypsies too.
I don't like some of their traditions, to be honest, as I don't like some of the catholic traditions. Anyway, even having had some bad experiences during my life, I still think that stereotypes and generalizations are something that should be avoided, that's why I will not agree with sayings like "all gypsies steal".
The measures that the France government is taking seem discriminative, racist and unjustified from my point of view.

WayBack

1st Sep 2010, 09:39 PM

I think a couple of them got banned from entering the shop because of incidents like the above happening.

A good thing that they got banned, unfortunately it's impossible to do here. In fact, one owner of some pub got sued for racism when he refused to let the gypsies in after they caused troubles and disturbed his guests a night before.

Anyway, as you mentioned supermarkets, there's a group of gypsies in my town who love to go to supermarkets for free shopping. They simply eat and drink whatever they want and when the supermarket's guards try to stop them, the gypsies immediately protest that they've got the right to be there like anybody else and use their favorite phrase that "this is racism". So the helpless guards call the police, the policemen arrive, scold the gypsies and that's all because the financial damage is not big enough for it to be considered a crime and the gypsies are well aware of that fact. Five minutes later the gypsies are back to finish their dinner as if nothing happened.

Mistermook

1st Sep 2010, 10:09 PM

Practical experience -> Europeans
Theoretical idealism -> Americans

Am I right?
Poland:
Polish 96.7%, German 0.4%, Belarusian 0.1%, Ukrainian 0.1%, other and unspecified 2.7% (2002 census)

US:
white 79.96%, black 12.85%, Asian 4.43%, Amerindian and Alaska native 0.97%, native Hawaiian and other Pacific islander 0.18%, two or more races 1.61% (July 2007 estimate)
note: a separate listing for Hispanic is not included because the US Census Bureau considers Hispanic to mean persons of Spanish/Hispanic/Latino origin including those of Mexican, Cuban, Puerto Rican, Dominican Republic, Spanish, and Central or South American origin living in the US who may be of any race or ethnic group (white, black, Asian, etc.); about 15.1% of the total US population is Hispanic

Who has practical experience with other cultures and dealing with people who are different from themselves again?

geallach

1st Sep 2010, 10:18 PM

I get what you are saying, Oaktree, I really do, but the whole thing is so sensitive that even doing something like applying the law to the Roma becomes difficult. There are people like Madonna - self-righteous without any real understanding- who would decry any attempt to do so as blatant racism. We see it all the time. I could give you a dozen examples, as I am sure several other Europeans here could. The police want to apply the law to those among them who commit crimes, but for some reason there are people who would consider this discrimination. I know it is not fair, but it is the position they are in.

Also, the people who you called "Irish gypsies" definitely do not like being called gypsies. They call themselves Travellers or Pavee.

el_flel

2nd Sep 2010, 12:00 AM

Who has practical experience with other cultures and dealing with people who are different from themselves again?That's not the issue being discussed though. It doesn't matter that America is a very multicultural country; it doesn't have the problem with Roma that Europe has, much in the same way that Europe doesn't have the problem of illegal Mexican immigrants (for example) that the US has, so when Tempscire and Wotjek say "practical experience -> Europeans, theoretical idealism -> Americans" they aren't criticising America; they are stating a valid point. It is easy to say "why don't the govt do this/that" "why don't people try to help them" without having direct experience of the problem, but as people have said, it's a very difficult issue.

Tempscire

2nd Sep 2010, 04:56 AM

It is easy to say "why don't the govt do this/that" "why don't people try to help them" without having direct experience of the problem, but as people have said, it's a very difficult issue.

Yep.

To expand a little on my earlier point, Americans* definitely (seem to) come in with a very racially-sensitive perspective, probably due to the relatively recent civil rights movement(s), and are very prone to seeing the old prejudices against blacks/etc in force against the gypsies. They/we see complaints of crime as fitting the ostracizing mold of "Blacks/Irish/Hispanics are all [lazy/poor/violent/sneaky/untrustworthy]." Obviously there is a valid point in that, but the situations have different nuances and the contextual cultures are different. E.g., segregation in America != apartheid in South Africa. Illegal immigration from central and South America is probably the closest parallel to gypsies that Americans have (from what I've read there are some gypsy/Traveler/Roma clans here, too, but obviously they aren't nearly so prevalent), and we can easily see how smoothly that little debate is going.

Social issues are complex the world over, and simply wagging the finger of racism and making suggestions to "just help them out and treat them equally!" are far, far too simple ("idealistic"). Not that that's any reason to just give up, either, but centuries-strong traditions in an insular cultural group aren't going to be easily shifted.

*I'm an American as well, but I do tend trust local opinion a bit more than that of people with no direct involvement, albeit with a grain of salt. Even the opinions (on this issue) of Americans who have lived in or extensively toured Europe tend to be noticeably different from those who haven't, which kind of makes me think there's something very factual to the anti-Roma bias.

Purity4

2nd Sep 2010, 07:25 AM

I have not always lived in America so I don't see how my current residence has anything to do with my perspective on racism.

jooxis

2nd Sep 2010, 09:11 AM

Tempscire is absolutely correct. It seems that white middle-class priviledged people of the Western world (especially North America) are always the first to cry "racism!" and "give them a chance!" even though they have barely any contact with the minorities and culture in question (The Roma in this case). It's such a simplistic view of the whole situation and indicates complete dettachment from what the issues are.

As I've somewhat indicated - I live in a city heavily populated by Roma minorities. I encounter them every day in many ways and it's a part of my life. I am very familiar with their culture/lifestyle and the issues around it. My entire community is familiar with this issue. Solving it is much more complicated than just "everyone should stop being racist!".

Lemon&Lime

2nd Sep 2010, 12:19 PM

In Britain, the problem is not so much Roma but Irish gypsies. I think it genuinely is racism when they are predjudiced against. They have very little campsites which are available to them, and wherever they go they're verbally abused. In my own experience I've seen people shout four-letter-words at Irish gypsy women which were so unfair as they were just going shopping and weren't causing any trouble.

Yet again, I suggest everyone watch "My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding". The amount of problems they face is unbelievable. When they get married, they have to cover-up the fact that they're gypsys. If anyone finds out that they are... well, they've had weddings cancelled literally only hours before it was due to happen due to racism. They talked about how they're accused of starting fights at venues, but often fights are started by racist locals and are then blamed on them. There was an interview with a non-gypsy woman who owned a wedding dress shop which specialised in gypsy wedding dresses, and she talked about the misconceptions she had before and what she knows after - for example, they are all strictly Catholic and things like sex before marriage is extremely frowned upon - even for the men. Also, even when they're children are in their 20s they ask their parents for permission to go out and are very respectful.

Anyway, I digress. I don't know a lot about Roma gypsies because we don't get many of them here in Britain. I just wanted to join in :)

Purity4

2nd Sep 2010, 06:14 PM

Purity4: Germany is no longer Nazi and there is no communism in Europe. All that is the past and we should not try to hate each other because of the past. The Romani people indeed had a sad history full of hatred and discrimination but it shouldn't excuse their behavior. They live in our society and have to comply to the rules. Moreover they do indeed belong to the white people because they originated in India.

The one thing you pointed out, the nazi era in germany, is not the only, nor most recent instance of racism against the Romani. I do agree the past is the past, but in this situation, it is not in the past as people continue to build stereotypes and prejudices against an entire group of people based on the non-conformist and sometimes criminal acts of a few people within the group.

Purity4

2nd Sep 2010, 06:48 PM

Wojtec, it appears you and I are operating from different definitions.

Tempscire

2nd Sep 2010, 08:45 PM

I have not always lived in America so I don't see how my current residence has anything to do with my perspective on racism.

It's more of a general trend than a hard rule, coupled with my own hypothesis as to why that might be so. :rolleyes:

Rodryo

2nd Sep 2010, 10:12 PM

Peace.and.Chaos

3rd Sep 2010, 01:51 AM

I think that there is a vicious circle...First and foremost, their lifestyle and rules don't really include formal education. I had once a Romani classmate that went to school for about 6 years and had to repeat the year once or twice.

Then, even if they do go to school and even college (but I don't know if the parents can pay for either), but let's say that they do...they will get discriminated by some people. That could easily discourage them...and then they resort to violence or erratic behaviour, frequently encountered in minorities.

Not to mention other issues such as unplanned parenthood which results in teenage pregnancy/lots of children while not being able to support them financially.

So yes, I do believe that there is a vicious circle but you know what I've also noticed? Nobody talks about their responsibilities...only their rights...which is awesome that we are willing to help them, but they should above all, learn how to help themselves and know that we deserve to be respected as well.

geallach

4th Sep 2010, 03:08 AM

I agree that this has nothing to do with racism. The Roma are not a racial group, despite the fact that those few among them who commit crimes will often charge those who catch them with racism, as will people who do not believe the law should be applied to them. And no-one is stereotyping them - stereotypes are based on ignorance, people here are discussing what they have encountered and have clearly stated that they are not saying that all Roma are like this. Hightlighting the fact that many European countries have very serious issues with some of them is not discriminating against them.

As Peace.And.Chaos said, the Roma have a responsibility to obey the laws of whatever country they are in; most do, but those who do not should also be subject to, and not above, those laws. This is not discrimination either. The police of any country should not be afraid to justly apply fair laws to everyone equally, but sadly they are, and it is unfair to society as a whole that this is so, including the Roma themselves, as part of that society.

pinketamine

4th Sep 2010, 05:58 PM

I think their law allows immigrants to arrive and stay for 3 months. If you don't find job you're expelled.

I thought that you could freely move in the European Union, even when you didn't work.

They have to obey the law... ok, I agree.But don't say that they have to change their culture to earn respect because that doesn't make any sense. Cultural "rules" are not something you must obey, each one can have their own culture and that should not bother anyone else.

Peace.and.Chaos

4th Sep 2010, 09:39 PM

I thought that you could freely move in the European Union, even when you didn't work.

They have to obey the law... ok, I agree.But don't say that they have to change their culture to earn respect because that doesn't make any sense. Cultural "rules" are not something you must obey, each one can have their own culture and that should not bother anyone else.

And what exactly does happen when they do bother everyone else? You know that we had cases of Gypsies who married their daughters from the fragile age of 9? What should the authorities do? There are child rights to be applied as well...

Other than that, yes, nobody forced them not to have their own culture. It's not culture that we're talking about right now, it's not about the art, dance, music or traditions here, it's about them living in civilised countries for years and years and not conforming to their laws, disturbing people with their behaviour.*

To be honest, most of the Gypsies I know abandoned their culture. Yeah they still don't pay taxes, don't send their kids to school, don't work but dress just like everyone else, in skirts, tank tops or jeans etc etc. and don't even speak their own language.

People evolve, they need to and have to, (as Wojtek said, the truth is painful), in order to survive, you cannot be stuck forever with the same old conceptions about work, kids, marriage or life.

*again, I'm not generalising.

pinketamine

5th Sep 2010, 02:21 AM

Peace.and.Chaos, I don't see how my post conflicts with your arguments. Marrying being 9 is illegal, and I said they should obey the law, so... they should not be allowed to do it.

I have nothing against their culture but I simply hate the way they behave.
Hating something is in fact having something against it, I guess both things mean the same.

They want to be treated like victims but in fact it's their fault they ended up like that.
Well, I don't think that's true, at least not totally. Saying that that is totally true is the same than saying than in the 60's black people in the US were guilty of their situation. Yes, I know gypsies are caucasian and all that, but I think intolerance is more a cultural than a racial thing in many cases, we just tend not to like people who are different, no matter what their difference is.

And I find it normal that people in France don't like the measure, something like that is not even legal, that is why the EU wants France to explain it.

pinketamine

5th Sep 2010, 11:25 PM

Well, I'll try to summarize my opinion in a better way, because aparently my way of exposing it has made it look like I defend everything gypsies do because they suffer discrimination.

I wanted to direct you to this graph (http://www.publico.es/detalle-imagen/335069/?c=http://www.publico.es/internacional/335069/pueblo/despreciadoy/desamparado/europa), just as an informative thing. I live in Spain, so, as you can see, the number of gypsies in Spain is pretty big (1,6% of the population), with this I only mean that I have had many experiences with gypsies.

Firstly, I think that the french goverment measure is totally wrong. The only reason for the EU to call them to explain it is because it is not legal to mass deportations. The EU has a free movement policy, so there is not a legal base for that measure.
Secondly, I think that there is a real discrimination directed to the gypsies. Part of that discrimination comes from them, because when you live in any country you have to adapt yourself to the laws existing in that country; other part of it comes from the society, who does not totally accept their culture. Apparently, 24% of the european population would not like to have a gypsie as a neighbour, and that is a lot of people, specially if we consider that only 6% would feel uncomfortable with a neighbour of any other ethnicity.
The next thing I wanted to say is that, sometimes goverments apply "positive discrimination" to them. I have never been a friend of positive discrimination, as it usually means that some poor people who don't belong to any minoritary ethnic groups have to see how these groups get free houses or economic help from goverments. I think that helping them is fair, but you should help other people too. Seeing that you have no home and someone who has just arrived your country gets one as soon as he arrives can make people really angry, and I can totally understand it.

Well, I hope I made my points clearer than before, maybe I forgot more things, I don't know.

Rectos Dominos

6th Sep 2010, 05:02 AM

As a Canadian I have had no first hand experiences with the Roma people even when I travelled to Europe so I don't have much to say about them all I have to say Laws first Culture second this doesn't just apply to the Romani.

Peace.and.Chaos

6th Sep 2010, 12:04 PM

My mum told me that when she was a little girl and when she was bad she would be warned "Don't behave like that! If you do the Gypsies will take you". When my mum was a child Poland was a communist country and USRR did the ethnic cleansing in Poland and thousands of the Romani and Jews had to flee.

That is so true! To be honest even when I was a little girl, at kindergarten (roughly 15 years ago or so), the educators used to say the same thing! I'm talking about post-communist Romania at that time...

I wouldn't be surprised if even today grandparents still use that to scare little children.

The thing is that they totally have no idea what big of an impact those childish scares have on people. It will linger in their subconscious mind forever.

Peace.and.Chaos

6th Sep 2010, 02:05 PM

So you live in Romania? From what I've seen there are a lot of gypsies in Romania. Like 9% of the population. Do they also cause troubles? What troubles and how does the Romanian government try to deal with it? How did Romania and its people react when Sarkozy got rid of the Romani people and moved them to Romania?

Yes I still live in Romania and to be honest 9% is a statistic, I am inclined to say that there are more of them, probably the largest minority here and that is something considering that we have a lot of Hungarians as well.

We do have our issues, as I said I used to live in "Gypsy town" about 3 years ago so I will take the liberty to say that I know what I'm talking about. I used to live in a block of flats and they lived in fairly small houses nearby.

The fact is that maybe it's prejudice or whatever but a lot of people complain about their laziness. As in they all do their best to earn money without effectively working too much or at all. There's a money cult, they sing about money, so on and so forth.

Culturally speaking, our ideas and ways of life do clash. Marriages between them and us are not well seen at all, for example.
What I remember is that they used to make a lot of noise, I mean from loud music to screaming and swearing all the time. Women are often mistreated or abused. Even while walking on the street, they do say something rude or even throw stuff at people. Fights are mundane things. They live in 'clans' that are in a constant battle with each other.

Their behaviour is the same here but as I mentioned before maybe the biggest issue is that our economical situation is precarious, prices for food, clothes etc are too high, we work very much for low salaries. To give an example, the educational system is so bad, always in transition, teachers are incredibly poorly paid. So giving all these we already have problems to begin with and they add up to them by not working, not paying taxes, not willing to cooperate. They make a lot of children, live on welfare that gets cut from our salaries every day.
They have no laws, maybe moral ones at best. They have two 'kings' that are of course in conflict with each other. Years ago, my father arrested one of them for fraud. Speaking of my father, a former Policeman and Jurist, he witnessed a lot of things, including a Gypsy woman throwing her newborn at him in order to escape.

On the street you can see children forced to beg for their parents. Most of the beggars are Gypsies.

There are programmes and funds from the EU destined for them (billions of euros), social workers work every day with Gypsy families, there are anti-discrimination campaigns (though maybe they aren't very efficient...), TV shows that show how they live etc. There are classes and Romani books made for them so they can learn to speak and write in their own language. In spite of that, the Romanian Gorvernment is very corrupted as it is and I think the funds weren't well spent.

I'm not very aware of what is the Government's reaction but from what I've read, nobody is surprised, they are probably scared because the infractionality rate is going to increase. They cooperated with the EU and France and maybe find some solutions. One of them is to offer 3.600 euros per family...in my opinion giving money will not solve anything.

Sorry for this huge rant!

Peace.and.Chaos

6th Sep 2010, 05:41 PM

I believe the Hungarians are ok. I treat Hungarians with huge respect due to our shared history and friendship between Poland and Hungary:

They are, my mom always tells me that she had a lot of Hungarian neighbours and friends while growing up and to be honest, I live in a place that is more civilised because it used to be under the occupation of the Austro-Hungarian empire. But then again, their moral values and laws are similar to us, to European standards at least.

They'll waste everything immediately and the Romanians will be furious. I would be furious as well.

You know, it's not even about the fury, anger or frustration anymore, it's about doing what is right. The definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over again and expect different results...do they really think that those people will spend their money on opening a business?! Oh my God, major businesses are declaring bankruptcy, do they really expect that such a hypothetical business would really work? (I read about it in an online newspaper).

What rant are you talking about? You only described how the situation looks in Romania where a lot of Gypsies reside. Your own observations and experiences with the Gypsies only prove that the problem persists and it's almost impossible to solve.

I'm not used to writing so much on a forum, I'm glad you found it helpful.

My personal opinion is that our stupid and corrupt Government should stop sitting on their asses and do something with our agriculture (we have good, fertile soils and vast plains) and offer well paid jobs to the Gypsies and Romanians who don't have jobs or are poor. The only problem would be with them refusing to actually work...but it would be a step forward nonetheless.

As for the other countries, I don't know.

Could you find a smiliar solution for Poland?