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View Full Version : Underground Levels - Concerns, Researches,Discussion


MAB-2000
22nd Aug 2011, 10:25 AM
Since you don't like Journal conversations I moved it here!

Everyone that is interested this (http://www.modthesims.info/journal.php?do=showentry&e=5669) is the Entry.Please do not post there post here to the original thread.

I re-organised my questions so they will be easier to follow:

1. Can we place objects on -1 grid?
*Don't know yet*

2. Can we adjust the depth/height of lvl -1?
Yes, we can, with GridAdjuster

3.When we are using the CFE cheat, lvl -1 does it change its elevation? (if adjusting the ground, no pool's bottom)
If negative levels are affected the same way as positive, the answer is no. Meaning that when you adjust lvl 5, there are no changes on lvl 4.The same way if you adjust lvl 0 there should be no changes on lvl -1.

4.Is there any level under lvl -1?
Probably there is!


I think we can start doing researches on question No1! :beer:

MAB-2000
22nd Aug 2011, 10:39 AM
Mootilda also made an underground test lot, she also gave directions on how to make one. (Post #3 for the link)

Mootilda would you mind explaining to me the last 3 steps?

Another favor please. Because in your thread, you can find anything you want and 2400 posts are really a big number, and since I can't understand for what you are talking about each time, is it a big deal to explain me the basics? Only those I need, to understand clearly, what you were trying to achieve, and your results! Please?

Mootilda
22nd Aug 2011, 2:14 PM
Mootilda also made an underground test lot, she also gave directions on how to make one.
http://www.modthesims.info/showthre...016#post3620016Your link doesn't work. Here's the correct link:
http://www.modthesims.info/showthread.php?p=3620016#post3620016


[Quote=Mootilda]We've already done some research on this and found it less than useful:
http://www.modthesims.info/showthread.php?p=1929152#post1929152 (Post # 1578)
http://www.modthesims.info/showthread.php?p=1929185#post1929185 (Post # 1581)
http://www.modthesims.info/showthread.php?p=1932438#post1932438 (Post # 1651)

Since I had never shared my original underground test lot, and since I seem to have lost it, and since at least one person has requested it, I decided to create a new test lot. Note that it is still impossible to access the underground level.

How this lot was made:

1) Create a new base game lot.
2) Add a pool, to quickly add a new level=-1 to the lot.
3) Remove the pool, since it's no longer needed.
4) Save the lot, to ensure that saved lot has new level.
5) Add some walls on the ground level.
6) Save and quit the game.
7) Subtract 1 from the level of every wall in every WGRA. See Note 1.
8) Add invisible tiles on the ground level so that we can see the underground level. See Note 2.
9) Drop the water on the lot by 20 clicks. See Note 3.

Notes:
1) Using a special version of ConvertiWall V1.2.1.
2) Eventually, this step could be replaced with the invisible flags in the 3ARY instance 0x15.
3) Using an unreleased version of the GridAdjuster V1.2.3.3.I'm not going to move the test lot into this thread, but I'll put all future test lots here.

is it a big deal to explain me the basics? Only those I need, to understand clearly, what you were trying to achieve, and your results! Please?The question that I was trying to answer with this lot was whether we could create an underground room. The result was that walls can be pushed underground, but there is no way to access the underground level, so the test lot is fundamentally useless.

Mootilda would you mind explaining to me the last 3 steps?
After step #6, we have an underground level -1 with nothing on it. We cannot see the underground level because it is covered by the ground. We cannot access level -1 to add walls. However, we have walls on level 0. So, our theory was that we could manually "push" the walls underground.

Step #7 moves the existing walls from level 0 to level -1.

Step #8 makes the ground invisible, so that we can see the underground level.

Step #9 moves the water underneath the underground level. In our experiments with no-slope basements, we found that water on a lot could interfere with access to the underground level. In that case, the underground level was level 1; in our case, the underground level is level -1. Just to be sure that our inability to access the underground level is not caused by water, we just move the water underneath level -1, so that it cannot possibly interfere.

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From this test, we know that more needs to be done to make level -1 useful (if it is possible at all).

Suggestion for future research:

- Shift every 3D Array down one level. Since the 3D Arrays contain information about tile locking, rooms, etc, this may "unlock" the underground level. This would also allow us to add floor tiles to the underground "room".
http://simswiki.info/wiki.php?title=3ARY

Note that we should probably avoid shifting the road area; underground roads seem likely to cause problems.

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One more thing: This probably belongs in Modding Discussion > Research & Development, not Building. At this time, there is NO indication that we will ever be able to get this working. Why? Because there is no way to "go to" level -1 in the game. You can scroll through all of the other levels with a simple click of the mouse.

MAB-2000
22nd Aug 2011, 8:27 PM
Mootilda, first of all be positive, never say never! It might be impossible now...don't forget that most of the breakthroughs found by luck...one day we may log-in and a there might be someone who found something and he is explaining this to his journal ;)!

Now about 3DARY...do I have to read all of the stuff in the wiki? Cause I lost you from there that says:


As specified in WDB.

DWORD
Block ID (2A51171B)

Actually, I think that there is a way to add floor tiles on -1 grid...Seasons EP ability to edit pool's wall and floors.

MAB-2000
22nd Aug 2011, 9:03 PM
I've seen your lot and I noticed some things:

1. The game doesn't count our room as a "real" one, I mean we can still build 5 levels. So if we force the wall to go again back we can possible have more that 16 levels, or will we still get the error message?

2.As I said above the game don't care about what is below GL (ground level), as we can build pool normally

3.Take a look at the pic and tell me what you are thinking...at the left there is no water, at the right it is!

http://i55.tinypic.com/20u8q9s.png

Mootilda
22nd Aug 2011, 9:58 PM
Now about 3DARY...do I have to read all of the stuff in the wiki?Only if you want to modify the 3D Array record manually. Not something that I would recommend. I write programs to modify things like this, when I need to; the wiki articles are invaluable for programmers.

Actually, I think that there is a way to add floor tiles on -1 grid...Seasons EP ability to edit pool's wall and floors.Are you able to do this with either my lot or your lot? If so, please attach the test lot with floor tiles installed on the -1 level outside of the pool area.

1. The game doesn't count our room as a "real" one, I mean we can still build 5 levels. So if we force the wall to go again back we can possible have more that 16 levels, or will we still get the error message?I'd have to understand why there's a 16 level limit to comment on this.

3.Take a look at the pic and tell me what you are thinking...at the left there is no water, at the right it is!I have no idea what I'm looking at, so I can't comment. Perhaps if I had the actual lot, I might have some thoughts.

At minimum, it would help to tell us which EPs and SPs you're using and the steps that you took to arrive at this point.

MAB-2000
23rd Aug 2011, 8:14 AM
I'm really really sorry for yesterday.I was not clear at all...:)

Only if you want to modify the 3D Array record manually. Not something that I would recommend. I write programs to modify things like this, when I need to; the wiki articles are invaluable for programmers.

So is there a program that will let me do this? convertiWall maybe?


Are you able to do this with either my lot or your lot? If so, please attach the test lot with floor tiles installed on the -1 level outside of the pool area.

I do not have seasons installed but as soon as I install it I will try it.

I'd have to understand why there's a 16 level limit to comment on this.


Because the game lets you go only up to 6 level. Using the "setHighestAllowedLevel" cheat we can go up to 16th level before crashing the application.


I have no idea what I'm looking at, so I can't comment. Perhaps if I had the actual lot, I might have some thoughts.
At minimum, it would help to tell us which EPs and SPs you're using and the steps that you took to arrive at this point.

Mootilda
23rd Aug 2011, 2:25 PM
Now about 3DARY...do I have to read all of the stuff in the wiki?Only if you want to modify the 3D Array record manually. Not something that I would recommend. I write programs to modify things like this, when I need to; the wiki articles are invaluable for programmers.So is there a program that will let me do this? convertiWall maybe?No, there's nothing available. To pursue this, someone would have to write a special-purpose program to do it. The wiki article is a reference for that programmer.

I suppose that you could try to use SimPE to edit this record manually, but you'd still need to understand the internal hex format of the record, and the record is large and complex enough that manual manipulation would have a high likelihood of failure.

I do not have seasons installed but as soon as I install it I will try it.OK. That makes sense. Please let us know the results of the tests.

1. The game doesn't count our room as a "real" one, I mean we can still build 5 levels. So if we force the wall to go again back we can possible have more that 16 levels, or will we still get the error message?I'd have to understand why there's a 16 level limit to comment on this.Because the game lets you go only up to 6 level. Using the "setHighestAllowedLevel" cheat we can go up to 16th level before crashing the application.That doesn't really answer my question. I don't expect you to be able to answer it, because it involves understanding either 1) the internal format which sets the 16-level restriction or 2) the game source code which sets the 16-level restriction.

Without an understanding of why the 16-level restriction exists, I can't speculate upon the possible outcome of any action upon that restriction.

I'm really really sorry for yesterday.I was not clear at all...:)To aid communication, let me tell you my understanding. Then, you can correct anything that I have wrong.

You have a project that you are interested in: Gaining access to negative grid levels. You may not have the skills necessary to pursue this research. You were hoping that I had a program which would allow you to do the research required. I don't, so you will probably need a programmer to help you.

Is that basically correct?

Since I already did some work on this, I gave you links to the work that I had done, along with a test lot that was a part of that research. I also explained how I had created the test lot, what I thought was the next step in that research, and why I believe that the research will ultimately prove useless. I tried to document enough that someone with the correct skills should be able to pick up where I left off.

I have a lot of projects that I'm working on. I believe that your project will fail and I've explained why. Therefore, my tendency is to put my efforts into my other projects, which I believe have a better chance of being successful.

MAB-2000
28th Aug 2011, 8:50 PM
Of course I do not expect from you to stop your projects especially for something that you think the only option is failure. I was asking you, because, as you said, I don't have the required skills, and I don't know where to start from so I can continue your work in the future.

So thank you for spending your time. :)