The Illuminati and Satanism

[purexevil666]

Hey, in here i would like to discus with you all about the Illuminati and free-masonic and satanism
I don't know much about them but all i know is they are like a secret society or something and most of them are politicals and celebrities :|
Is is all true about "New world order" thingy has to do with them?
And Artist who sold their souls to the devil and what they has to do with them?
Just post here what you'd like to tell me that has to do with the subject. Kthanks. :)

[Rawra]

Funny thread coming from someone with such a nickname.

[Oaktree]

Actually, masons believe in God. I don't know much about the Illuminati, as I mostly hear about it through conspiracy theories, which I tend to be dismissive toward.

This reddit thread has more information about masons: http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/n8n8s/iama_32_degree_mason_willing_to_say_things_i/

[SuicidiaParasidia]

uhm...okay.... but what about them? what's the argumentative point, here?

[KKiryu007Joker]

uhm...okay.... but what about them? what's the argumentative point, here?

Maybe it has to do with his name?

[purexevil666]

Funny thread coming from someone with such a nickname.
What can i say? :) i've always been a POI =))

[hello2u08]

This is the debate room, not the off-topic discussion.

Both the Illuminati and Free Masons are real, and Free Masons actually are tightly intertwined with the government. Luckily, they aren't the oculists. The Illuminati are also a secret society, but less is known about them. The only thing I can tell you is that they also have some involvement in the government, as their symbol is the all seeing eye, which as you know, pops up alarmingly. Both of them are losing power in the modern world, but if you want to know the flat out ethics of them: Free Masons = Good, Illuminati = Evil.

[tovasshi]

Satanism doesn't actually worship Satan or perform any devil worship. The Church of Satan was founded in the 60s by Anton Szandor LaVey. The religion is about the worship of one's self and to enjoy indulgence.

[KKiryu007Joker]

Satanism doesn't actually worship Satan or perform any devil worship. The Church of Satan was founded in the 60s by Anton Szandor LaVey. The religion is about the worship of one's self and to enjoy indulgence.

Anton Szandor LaVey... then was HE Satan? :rofl:

[tovasshi]

Lol, no. Satan was a symbol that represents natural carnal desires. They chose that symbol because anytime someone gave into carnal desire they would blame Satan for "tempting them" into doing it.

[simbalena]

Free Masons = Good, Illuminati = Evil.

Where do you get that from? How do we know that the Illuminati currently exists? Eyes and triangles everywhere don't prove anything except that eyes and triangles are marketable images!

I believe that egotistical people would want to be part of a secret society that controls things, and consequently those types of secret societies do exist, but the amount of power they have is debatable and most likely comes from networking rather than anything religious.

[simsample]

purexevil666, this thread as it stands is not really a debate. You need to propose an aspect about the topic for participants to debate.

[Kathwynn]

There many different types of satanists religions. Levays type is just one .

As for the Illuminati.. It does not exist except in the imaginations of conspiracy nut cases.

The actual Illuminati was a German political group that folded its tent back in the late 1800's.

The Free Masons is an organizational that while has many rituals and ceremonies. It is in reality one part social club, one part charity organization, and one part brother/sisterhood. It is not bent on any political agenda of taking over the world.

Historical fact many of the people in the Continental Congress and later US Congress where members of the Free Masons.

All of which can be Googled and researched.

[5M0K3]

LaVeyan Satanists do not believe in a devil or a god per se, but believe they are both "inside" you, as in you are your own god, and you are responsible for anything bad or stupid you do. They believe you live for yourself, not a god or a devil. The basic idea; you are responsible for everything you do, but that it entirely your choice, you are your own god, NO ONE else. I did a report about Anton Szandor LaVey in high school (I got quite a few dirty looks from the teacher and the class) and so I've learned some stuff about him (most I forgot) but he doesn't even believe in a devil himself.

And he does not want people to worship him, he wants people to "worship" themselves, basically, do what you do, the whole "you are your own god" thing.

AND AS FOR WHAT PEOPLE SAY ABOUT THEM SACRIFICING ANIMALS... LaVeyan Satanists consider it a sin to harm an animal (unless it attacks you or it's for food) or children.

[whiterider]

Hmm. If "god" and "satan", generally considered the sources of morality (or lack thereof), are personal, how can there be objective sins regarding harming animals or children? What authority do these sins hold, being external rules imposed over an absolute internal moral source?

[Kathwynn]

Hmm. If "god" and "satan", generally considered the sources of morality (or lack thereof), are personal, how can there be objective sins regarding harming animals or children? What authority do these sins hold, being external rules imposed over an absolute internal moral source?
There in lies part of Levays use of words in this context that makes it a sin for you if you chose to follow it.

Again Anton Levay in many parts of occult world was/is considered a clown and a scam artist. Those that follow his "teachings" are some times referred to as being "baby satanists".

But then I am Wiccan. And Wiccans are not always seen as being all that great either **shrugs** And some would lay similiar charges at Gerald Gardener door.

But unlike Anton. Gerald was a little more forthcoming about where his source material came from in reality. Not that he was not above pulling a leg or two while he was about it.

As for Anton Levay. This article is from a man that actually knew him.

http://www.neopagan.net/SatanicAdventure.html

[tovasshi]

A sin in Satanism is anything that results in harm to yourself either socially or physically.

Also to note, Satanists don't follow "teachings" there isn't any "teachings" in Satanism. The Satanic Bible is actually a book that describes what a Satanist is. You don't convert to Satanism or try to "follow" it. What is supposed to happen is you read the Satanic Bible, and if it describes the way you are already, you can choose to adopt the title. There is no "following" in Satanism and you don't need to pay money to be one. Some choose to pay the $200 to register with the Church Of Satan, but it isn't required, people who register and people who have not still hang out in groups and participate in events just the same. It should also be noted that the Church Of Satan is the only church that pays taxes and they pay them out of protest against religious exemption of property taxes.

[5M0K3]

A musician that I like, Matt Skiba, is an agnostic, I believe, but he and his friend bought each other memberships to the Church of Satan so he could -- AND I QUOTE -- "see people squirm". So he was a member of the COS, it was all good. Later he decided to quit, but they hated that, OR SOMETHING. So he had said that they practically wanted him dead. But, I never experienced anything with the COS, I used to be a LaVeyan Satanist, but I never had anything to do with the church. (Don't ask me how I know this. I used to stalk him. Saw practically every interview.)

[KKiryu007Joker]

A musician that I like, Matt Skiba, is an agnostic, I believe, but he and his friend bought each other memberships to the Church of Satan so he could -- AND I QUOTE -- "see people squirm". So he was a member of the COS, it was all good. Later he decided to quit, but they hated that, OR SOMETHING. So he had said that they practically wanted him dead. But, I never experienced anything with the COS, I used to be a LaVeyan Satanist, but I never had anything to do with the church. (Don't ask me how I know this. I used to stalk him. Saw practically every interview.)


Aaagh you're a stalker of an ex-satanist that is going to be assassinated by satanists with... upside down crosses, or an upside down bible, or maybe an upside down $200. :up:

[purexevil666]

Would it sound creepy if i said all celebs are following the illuminati or Satan? :P

[5M0K3]

A lot of celebrities -- including at one point Matt Skiba -- are Scientologist.

[KKiryu007Joker]

Ever wonder why? :heyhey:

[whiterider]

It wouldn't sound creepy, because creepy has to be plausible.

[5M0K3]

Your 3 year old's babysitter could be a Satanist, that's the thing, they are just normal people, with different religious views. You can't tell them apart!

OTOH, there are some pretty crazy people who taken Satanism too far, and well... Yeah, you can tell those people apart.

[Oaktree]

Yeah, but saying that every famous person is a Satanist involves such a complicated and ill-evidenced conspiracy that it's wildly implausible.

[leesester]

It's still not looking very debate-like in this thread, so I have moved it.

[5M0K3]

Not to mention if EVERY celebrity in the world was Satanist, well... yeah, as Oaktree said that's too huge to be possible.

[AlexandraSpears]

I personally like the Vigilant Citizen site: http://vigilantcitizen.com/

All that weirdness you see in music videos and whatnot...there's actually a common theme.

[SimsLover50]

My grandfather was a freemason. Really nothing evil about it. He went to meetings. He had a ring. They did stuff. He had a good time. No big deal.

I did have a Christian friend who insisted they were Satanic, and implied the mason symbol looked like the devil. But he also thought Santa Claus was satanic because you could re-arrange the letters in Santa to spell Satan. His parents really did a number on him. That kiind of superstitious Christianity I can do without.

I don't believe in Satan personally. The idea of an almighty good god allowing a creature to torture and torment his creations is just not the actions of a good supreme diety.

My only experience with Scientology was when I lived in LA, and I would be solicited when I passed their temples on the street. When I told them I had no money they weren't interested in me as a member.

[KKiryu007Joker]

You know SimsLover, you just brought up something I've been wondering about for a long time. In the bible Satan asks to be employed by God and is. So why is he either supposed to be evil, or why does God allow him to exist?

[Kathwynn]

You know SimsLover, you just brought up something I've been wondering about for a long time. In the bible Satan asks to be employed by God and is. So why is he either supposed to be evil, or why does God allow him to exist?

If you want to understand the actual role of satan.. Read the book Job. In that book you will come to understand that satan does nothing with out permission from god.

Though I will warn you there is nothing nice, polite, uplifting in this book. But it is essential for understanding just what role satan does play in the judeo christian myths. If you are christian then I would suggest reading jesus last temptations as well.. Put into the context of the book of Job. One then realizes that satan is not really the bad guy, But the tempter. Satan can not literally make a person do anything. Satan can however tempt, make your life miserable, and generally act all bad. Can only do so with permission from god.

[SimsLover50]

You know SimsLover, you just brought up something I've been wondering about for a long time. In the bible Satan asks to be employed by God and is. So why is he either supposed to be evil, or why does God allow him to exist?

I think satan was created to be a bogeyman to scare people into converting and behaving. I just can't imagine any good diety allowing him to exist. And since god is all perfect and powerful, he would never create an angel that would fall and become evil. Totally contradicts god being both good and perfect.

[Kathwynn]

True SimLover50 That is why the role of satan and it roles within the christian myths is so misunderstood. It creates this paradox that says that the christian god is all good. Yet created a being of pure evil.

In actuality the idea is borrowed, or taken rather, From the zoroastrian religion. Which postulates an all good/beatific god balanced with an all evil/bad god. The only problem is that in taking/borrowing this idea it does set up this paradox. That really has no logical conclusion. As it takes a step away from the fact satan is not really a bad entity. But one that A. Feels that god has it wrong about humanity. Think of the ego on that alone. And B is the tempter to prove that humanity should not be above the angels. Because humanity is further away from god than the angels. There fore more prone to weakness of the will.

That in reality satan is about ego and his/its free will in the exercise of. In stating an opinion that differs from god stated agenda.

[SimsLover50]

True SimLover50 That is why the role of satan and it roles within the christian myths is so misunderstood. It creates this paradox that says that the christian god is all good. Yet created a being of pure evil.

In actuality the idea is borrowed, or taken rather, From the zoroastrian religion. Which postulates an all good/beatific god balanced with an all evil/bad god. The only problem is that in taking/borrowing this idea it does set up this paradox. That really has no logical conclusion. As it takes a step away from the fact satan is not really a bad entity. But one that A. Feels that god has it wrong about humanity. Think of the ego on that alone. And B is the tempter to prove that humanity should not be above the angels. Because humanity is further away from god than the angels. There fore more prone to weakness of the will.

That in reality satan is about ego and his/its free will in the exercise of. In stating an opinion that differs from god stated agenda.

I personally don't believe in satan. I am a deist and believe we are responsible for our own actions. Reason dictates that a good deity such as god would never tolerate a being such as satan to to exist and would never create hell either.

[purexevil666]

I understood the diffrence between satanism and freemasonics but i still don't know what money and fame and power has to do with the freemasons? Isn't it because of thier satanism? (i mean devil worshipers)

[Rawra]

Umm, don't quote me on this (I never read the Bible and haven't really been interested in learning more about Christianity), but as far as I know, Satan was once an angel and he became jealous of God's power, so that's why he became a demon, bringing along lots of other angels who had his opinion. He created Hell himself, and then grew in power as man's sin became worse. That's what I know, so don't judge.

[KKiryu007Joker]

Umm, don't quote me on this (I never read the Bible and haven't really been interested in learning more about Christianity), but as far as I know, Satan was once an angel and he became jealous of God's power, so that's why he became a demon, bringing along lots of other angels who had his opinion. He created Hell himself, and then grew in power as man's sin became worse. That's what I know, so don't judge.


Hmm.... no that's all fake stuff everybody magically knows that was never even talked about in the Bible, after reading it. He was just some character that asked God if he could get paid to work for him in the Book of Job. He is just some guy with a contract that is paid by God to judge people and manipulate them to see if they just.

[efolger997]

I grew up in the Christian church and read a good portion of the Bible, and I've never heard of Satan being an angel that fell. I just did a quick look on biblegateway.com, and it seems that's an idea in Revelation, so I'm not sure it explains things before the apocalypse. Then again, I don't know everything about the Bible, either, and I've never read the book of Revelation. I've always heard about that Satan-was-an-angel thing, but I don't think it's really a central part of Christian theology. I think the idea is that we [humans] brought evil into the world with sin, and (maybe) that's when Satan was created. I think he's more of a way to explain sin--the badness that lives inside each of us, and something we each have to conquer. God allows it (sin/Satan) to exist because He gave us free will; He won't take that away until the apocalypse.
I don't know, that's just what seems to make the most sense to me. Of course, I don't believe in Satan anymore, either, since I'm now a Buddhist (or trying to be, at least). I also have to agree with SimsLover50 that I think the idea of Satan was meant to get people to behave--to conquer the "evil" within themselves.

[Rawra]

^I don't know, my father told me that (he's kinda obsessed, you know...). But, then again, my father is also the most homophobic person I have ever met, so he's not to be taken seriously most of the times. :rolleyes:

[Yazoo]

Umm, don't quote me on this (I never read the Bible and haven't really been interested in learning more about Christianity), but as far as I know, Satan was once an angel and he became jealous of God's power, so that's why he became a demon, bringing along lots of other angels who had his opinion. He created Hell himself, and then grew in power as man's sin became worse. That's what I know, so don't judge.

Yes, you are right. Lucifer was one of the most beautiful angels in the Kingdom of God, but he was jealous of God, and wanted to rule Heaven for himself. He ended up making followers. And when he tried to over throw God, God sent him to Hell where he could rule, but to rule over all the sinners, because his undying hate for God. Hence why we call him a Fallen Angel or Demon. Lucifer was an angel of God, but was jealous. But he wasn't depicted as Satan until later.


Hmm.... no that's all fake stuff everybody magically knows that was never even talked about in the Bible, after reading it. He was just some character that asked God if he could get paid to work for him in the Book of Job. He is just some guy with a contract that is paid by God to judge people and manipulate them to see if they just.

Actually, The Creeper was right, and is right. But he was mentioned not as Satan, but Lucifer.

In fact you will find all you need from here:

http://www.faithclipart.com/guide/christian-ministries/angels/lucifer-the-fallen-angel.html

Believe me, I knew about this, but to make sure that I was right, I looked it up.

^I don't know, my father told me that (he's kinda obsessed, you know...). But, then again, my father is also the most homophobic person I have ever met, so he's not to be taken seriously most of the times. :rolleyes:

Somethings, like Lucifer and his falling, you have to take serious, hun. Because you were right about Lucifer wanting to be more powerful than God himself. He saw himself, most high.

[Rawra]

^Well, what do you know. Credits to my father, then.

[Yazoo]

^Well, what do you know. Credits to my father, then.

Lol. I had to look it up just to make sure, because I had the stories of his fall from Heaven. But I had to make sure, and I had to be on the safe side. And wouldn't you know it? I found it! :) But yeah, when I read that, I immediately went looking for it. Because you were right.

[SimsLover50]

I don't see god making a flawed angel. God is perfect and the angesl are his servants, making one that rebels and wants to be god? No.

FreeMasonry is just not satantic or involve devil worship. There is no deity in Freemasonry. If people believe it is devil worship, that is simply conspiracy theorists at work and has no basis in reality. At least in my grandparent's MAsonic temple, they did charity work.

[Yazoo]

He didn't make a flawed angel. Lucifer was perfect in every single way. But pride took advantage at him. And he wanted to be the Most High. Its a rather weird story. But Lucifer was perfect in every single way. But wanted more. Much like a human, I guess we can say. They always want more.

[Kathwynn]

I personally don't believe in satan. I am a deist and believe we are responsible for our own actions. Reason dictates that a good deity such as god would never tolerate a being such as satan to to exist and would never create hell either.

And I am Wiccan. For me the whole question is more academic than belief.

[SimsLover50]

He didn't make a flawed angel. Lucifer was perfect in every single way. But pride took advantage at him. And he wanted to be the Most High. Its a rather weird story. But Lucifer was perfect in every single way. But wanted more. Much like a human, I guess we can say. They always want more.

That would be a flaw to me.

[Drakesecaravdis]

LaVeyan Satanists do not believe in a devil or a god per se, but believe they are both "inside" you, as in you are your own god, and you are responsible for anything bad or stupid you do. They believe you live for yourself, not a god or a devil. The basic idea; you are responsible for everything you do, but that it entirely your choice, you are your own god, NO ONE else. I did a report about Anton Szandor LaVey in high school (I got quite a few dirty looks from the teacher and the class) and so I've learned some stuff about him (most I forgot) but he doesn't even believe in a devil himself.

And he does not want people to worship him, he wants people to "worship" themselves, basically, do what you do, the whole "you are your own god" thing.

AND AS FOR WHAT PEOPLE SAY ABOUT THEM SACRIFICING ANIMALS... LaVeyan Satanists consider it a sin to harm an animal (unless it attacks you or it's for food) or children.

ok I'm really confused. this sounds almost exactly like atheism.
the only difference I see is the fact they're using the word sin.

[EmmaBananana]

I dislike how most people see satanism as a bad thing (btw, I am an atheist) I personally think that satanism got its bad name because of the church and christians. Satan isn't necessarily bad, when looking at the origin of this, Lucifer (Satan) was a fallen angel, but I'm not exactly sure why. (if someone could tell me this it would be great) but whatever the reason for this, I am sure that it's not a hundred percent true. I find that over the years religion has been filled with lies. It's like religious stories were altered (by the original church, and mosque etc.), so that the people who read those were influenced by these stories and would do as they wished, kind of like brainwashing (eg. Saying that Maria Magdalena, jesus's wife, was actually a prostitute. In order to integrate the idea that women were below men. Also the passage of Leviticus 18:22 "'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable", as homosexuality was frowned upon back then. which also makes no sense because Christians believe that god created people, so how can it be wrong for them to be gay if they were made by god?). If you get what I mean. That's where Lucifer got his bad name from. Sorry for going a little of topic there :P satanists are very nice people, they are not evil.

as about the Illuminati, they were a group of people who believed in science rather than religion. So again as stated before, the church condemned them and that's why they have such a bad name. I think that when people call celebrities and organizations illuminati, they are saying it because they have opposing ideas towards religion. The church just likes to put fear into people (eg. the crusades)

If I got facts wrong, tell me. I also didn't mean to offend anyone, i'm just saying how I feel about this. If you say i'm ignorant because I'm an atheist that's not true, I have researched a lot about religion and grew up in a catholic household.

[YukiShine]

I personally think that satanism got its bad name because of the church and christians.
No way!
Maybe because the church invented him in the first place and introduced him as an antagonist? ;) [/sarcasm] Of course they would depict their antagonist as evil, what else would they do? Hell or Satan weren't Christian concepts right from the start, they were only developed when it became necessary to scare people in order to teach them Christian morals and to compete with other religions. There's a reason Satan has quite a few features from popular Norse gods like Odin or Loki.

I just can't imagine any good diety allowing him to exist. And since god is all perfect and powerful, he would never create an angel that would fall and become evil. Totally contradicts god being both good and perfect.
Sure. Then again, would a god that's absolutely flawless fit our world? :P That's pretty much the topic for philosophers for centuries now and especially after WWII, called Theodicy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodicy).

As far as I can see, the god of the bible - especially from the old testament - is rather cruel. He deliberately makes a loyal follower suffer, all because of a mere bet. WTH? His morals are quite dubious and he keeps punishing people whose mistakes he himself initiated (like hardening the pharao's heart or putting the forbidden tree in Eva's reach in the first place).
With this train of thought one can actually come to the conclusion that Lucifer might be a pretty good guy, compared to his boss. Lucifer = Light Bringer = pretty much Prometheus from Greek mythology who gave the humans fire (and therefore independence) and was also punished severely by Zeus. Btw, Loki is the Norse god associated with fire and knowledge. The parallels to the Jewish/Christian paradise story are pretty clear.
Also, as someone already pointed out, later on Satan is only acting under orders and with approval of God.

And what is with that concept of hell, really? Why would a devil that hates God and is a symbol for amorality actually punish people who didn't follow God's morals?

Nah, really, black and white morals just don't make any sense.

Btw, I'm pretty much a pantheist and I don't believe there is any actual moral outside of people's minds. The world just is and evolves, because it can. :)

I really hope I didn't hurt anyone's feelings. I know I sometimes sound a bit harsh, but I really don't mean to make fun of anyone. The quotes were just chosen for illustration, not to upset you guys personnally. :)

[Lawli-Lawli]

uhm...okay.... but what about them? what's the argumentative point, here?

I'm pretty much here.