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Forum Resident
Original Poster
#1 Old 30th Jul 2007 at 3:54 AM
Default When is horseplay a crime?
Quote:
The two boys tore down the hall of Patton Middle School after lunch, swatting the bottoms of girls as they ran -- what some kids later said was a common form of greeting.

But bottom-slapping is against policy in McMinnville Public Schools. So a teacher's aide sent the gawky seventh-graders to the office, where the vice principal and a police officer stationed at the school soon interrogated them.

After hours of interviews with students the day of the February incident, the officer read the boys their Miranda rights and hauled them off in handcuffs to juvenile jail, where they spent the next five days.

Now, Cory Mashburn and Ryan Cornelison, both 13, face the prospect of 10 years in juvenile detention and a lifetime on the sex offender registry in a case that poses a fundamental question: When is horseplay a crime?

Link to article


Alright, I for one am against harassment in any case, much as this could easily be seen as one, the charges against the two boys are well blown out of proportions. Yes they are in the wrong, and should face a punishment, but ten years in Juvenile, and a life time as a registered sex offender? That's wrong. At best, a public apology to the girls, and possible expulsion from school, maybe community service, but not what the prosecutor is trying to bring against them. That's over blown.

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Lab Assistant
#2 Old 30th Jul 2007 at 4:33 AM
This is BULL$^%T!!!! This just pisses me off so bad! The ONLY result of this is; 1. Undermining the actual severity of crimes people considered registered sex offenders have commited

2. Guarenteed that these two boys will have trouble all their lives and probably end up back in the criminal system!


Yes, the school should do something. Usually getting called to the office was enough for us, much less detention. But they just swatted a girls bottom?? This is it??? 7th graders??????? Let's take a freakin reality check here.........these are adolescents at the age when they are discovering there IS an opposite sex., and what that means. Like pulling a ponytail or shooting spitballs,....they were trying to get the girls attention. They need to be redirected to a healthier way of doing this, sure. But this reaction is so disgusting! This doesn't mean they are sexual predators! I can think of lots of guys who did things like that growing up who become normal, great adults. GET REAL! This is only making sure the problem IS and WILL BE a problem. If this actually goes thru and they are charged, it is nothing but a travesty and perfect example of "morality" gone overboard.
Mad Poster
#3 Old 30th Jul 2007 at 4:43 AM
This is wrong. Yes, the boys shouldn't have been slapping girls' butts, but the common punishment for that in any school I've ever attended was a visit to the assistant principal and a few in-school suspensions. Obviously this situation has been blown out of proportion and the boys are being unfairly punished- yes, they committed the crime, but they don't deserve such harsh punishment.

A lifetime on the sex offender registry? That's terrible... these are just boys, they were probably influenced by their teenage hormones and, even if they knew better, it was just in good fun. Yes, it wasn't a very funny joke, but it doesn't warrant a lifetime as a registered sex offender. Ten years in a juvenile prison won't teach them anything, either- the consequences of their actions should be constructive and show them not to harass girls again rather than teach them to spend their whole life living in fear of the law.

This situation is entirely ridiculous. Yes, the boys deserve a mild punishment for harassing the girls, but nothing of this gravity. It's terribly wrong and much too harsh.

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Mad Poster
#4 Old 30th Jul 2007 at 5:30 AM
This is another incident in the trend of sexualizing everything in this society. These are young children, sure maybe their hormones are kicking in to some extent, but to even make this out to be a "sexual" crime is a crime in itself. Involving the police set the stage to traumatize all the children involved, boys and girls alike, leading to some girls feeling pressure to "complain" of a crime and branding the boys with something which could ruin their lives. Everything isn't about "sex" - some things are just about being a crazy kid in the process of growing up.
Test Subject
#5 Old 30th Jul 2007 at 5:37 AM
Quote: Originally posted by edejan
This is another incident in the trend of sexualizing everything in this society. These are young children, sure maybe their hormones are kicking in to some extent, but to even make this out to be a "sexual" crime is a crime in itself. Involving the police set the stage to traumatize all the children involved, boys and girls alike, leading to some girls feeling pressure to "complain" of a crime and branding the boys with something which could ruin their lives. Everything isn't about "sex" - some things are just about being a crazy kid in the process of growing up.

I'm sorry but when 7th grade boys slap the behinds of girls, it's sexual.If not,they would have been slapping the behinds of other boys too.It is a small form of sexual harrassment. They could have slapped the girls on the arm or back but no they choose the behind :disagree: I do agree their punishment was way too severe but a few weeks of suspension would have a good choice
Field Researcher
#6 Old 30th Jul 2007 at 5:43 AM
This is insane.

The sex offenders, such as the ones in Florida, can run rampant because of incompetence of law-enforcement officials, thus kidnapping, sexually abusing, and murdering many young children, while two barely-even-teen boys who were simply being too rowdy have to live the rest of their lives with the horrible stigma of being labeled as sex-offenders.

Slapping the girls' butts was definitely wrong, but it certainly doesn't warrant this kind of punishment. Officials definitely have their priorities in the wrong places--they ought to be keeping REAL sex offenders who have committed REAL, legally-punishable, and truly harmful crimes off the streets and away from potential victims, not bringing on to two young boys a lifetime of self-loathing, and distrust of and from other people.

Just another example of forcing kids to grow up before their time. It's really shameful.

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#7 Old 30th Jul 2007 at 5:46 AM
This is beyond asinine. The article goes on to say:

Quote:
The boys and their parents say Berry has gone far beyond what is necessary, criminalizing actions that they acknowledge were inappropriate. School district officials said Friday they had addressed the incident by suspending the students for five days.


Now THAT is a more appropriate punishment.

Quote:
The outlines of the case have been known. But confidential police reports and juvenile court records shed new light on the context of the boys' actions. The records show that other students, boys and girls, were slapping one another's bottoms. Two of the girls identified as victims have recanted, saying they felt pressured and gave false statements to interrogators.

....

A leading expert called the case a "travesty of justice" that is part of a growing trend in which children as young as 8 are being labeled sexual predators in juvenile court, where documents and proceedings are often secret.


Where have we heard this nonsense before? Maybe we should just haul them off to Gitmo or Abu Ghraib while we're at it. :eviltongu

Quote:
While it's true that a great deal of child sex abuse by adults goes undetected and unpunished, cases like the one in McMinnville reflect society's tendency to overreact, said Richard Ofshe, author of "Making Monsters: False Memories, Psychotherapy and Sexual Hysteria."

"The problem is that, like most good things, they can go to the extreme, and the extreme has been reached in several ways," said Ofshe, a professor of sociology at the University of California at Berkeley. "The whole question of what constitutes sexual abuse gets defined and redefined to the point where it's absurd."


Ya think?!?
Test Subject
#8 Old 30th Jul 2007 at 6:14 AM
It's very easy for us to say that they were punished too harshly but if one of these girls was your daughter would any of you feel the same? I probably wouldn't cause I still think it's sexual harassment.
Forum Resident
#9 Old 30th Jul 2007 at 6:43 AM
Uh, yeah, I have a teenage daughter, and I wouldn't want a 13 year old kid to get on a sex registry just for swatting her butt.

This reminds me of that kid Genarlow Wilson who got ten years in prison for having oral sex with his girlfriend. It's nuts.
#10 Old 30th Jul 2007 at 6:51 AM
...

maybe the girls should have hit them back.

=P
Field Researcher
#11 Old 30th Jul 2007 at 6:58 AM
OK, I don't know anything about this particular story except what I've read here, but this is one BIG problem with the media today. Prosecuters start out by looking at what the most extreme sentence would be, because they know they will rarely get it. These things get plea bargained down, and worked out in the court system, which they should, because what is described is 4th degree sexual assault and totally inappropriate for 7th graders. Also, with juvenile records being sealed, the media would have no idea what other criminal backgrounds, if any, these kids already have. What Amish was describing to me sounded more like two kids totally out of control than "horseplay." Not to mention it being a "common form of greeting..."??? What kind of a school is this, was my first thought.

Point #2: The second problem with media hype such as this is all of a sudden the person reporting the crime, in this case a teacher's aide, may now face pressure for doing what she believed, and what I believe, was right by reporting the two kids. AND the pressure felt by the girls to report on their classmates is now very public. So...if they say they felt harrassed they get flack from their peers and probably parents, if they say they didn't feel harrassed they get grief from the prosecutor. Whatever happened to the rights of the victims?

It's this kind of mentality that keeps so many young girls from ever coming forward in the first place. Now, if the prosecutor is pushing for false testimony, that is one thing, and that is very very wrong. But, what I usually hear of in my work are victims who tell someone, then when the offender starts to see consequences the victim recants, saying, "Oh, I didn't mean that," or "Oh, I was pressured to say that," when in fact what they are experiencing is victim guilt. Or, in this case, pressure from the parents of kids they probably know very well to take back their statements. Juvenile girls with no criminal record are less likely to lie to get someone INTO trouble than they are to lie to get someone OUT of trouble.

Point #3: As I've mentioned in other posts, I work with juvenile sex offenders. This is not funny stuff, and not to be taken lightly. These two boys thought it was acceptable behavior to run around slapping girls behinds? And they're, what, 12, 13? That kind of extreme boundary violation in a very public setting is disturbing to me. Where DO we draw the line? I don't know.

I'm not saying I agree with the sentence being proposed by the prosecutor. I am guessing the media has blown it all out of proportion. As I said, prosecutors aim high, and the defendants plea bargain down. That's the way our justice system works. I say we let the guy do his job and once the actual sentencing hearing happens, then worry about it. That's what appeals are for. I highly doubt any judge in his or her right mind would agree to that sentence. As citizens, though, I think we need to learn to step back for a minute and let justice take its course.


Quote: Originally posted by Doc Doofus
Uh, yeah, I have a teenage daughter, and I wouldn't want a 13 year old kid to get on a sex registry just for swatting her butt.

This reminds me of that kid Genarlow Wilson who got ten years in prison for having oral sex with his girlfriend. It's nuts.




Actually, Genarlow Wilson wasn't with his girlfriend, it was a a hotel party with a random girl, who was 15 and intoxicated. And they videotaped it. And he also had sex with another girl, a 17 year old, that same night (he was acquited of charges for that.) Not to mention the case has been in appeals, currently at the Georgia Supreme Court, and it has already changed much of the policy in Georgia to prevent sentences like that from happening again. He will likely be released on bond soon pending the Supreme Court's ruling in September.
#12 Old 30th Jul 2007 at 7:09 AM
When is horseplay a crime? (i am assuming horseplay means harmless and playful)

Learn to respect other people's butt and you won't get into trouble. imagine this in 15 years time when the child is 28 and he slap his co-worker butt in the office. learn now or later. up to you. you want a world filled with butt slapper or a world fill with people who respect each other.

Basic mutual respect, why would you slap another person's butt? why?
Lab Assistant
#13 Old 30th Jul 2007 at 7:44 AM
Quote: Originally posted by nixie
When is horseplay a crime? (i am assuming horseplay means harmless and playful)

Learn to respect other people's butt and you won't get into trouble. imagine this in 15 years time when the child is 28 and he slap his co-worker butt in the office. learn now or later. up to you. you want a world filled with butt slapper or a world fill with people who respect each other.

Basic mutual respect, why would you slap another person's butt? why?



Uuuuuuuuuuuuuumm, because yer a freakin 12 yr old boy??????
Having them arrested was over the line, period. I don't care if other kids have done far worse and been punished! Yes, there are juvinile criminals. But I think I'll save that sexual predator label for the 11 yr old who raped a girl,.....not one who smacked a girl on the butt! Sheesh, did any of you all defending this go to public school? It happens. If it happens alot, then you take further steps to stop the boys. If it gets out of control, you bring in the police or whatever. But this is sick. What happens when they grow up and do this at the office? Well, first of all, they are going to grow up. If they hadnt been traumatized and treated like they were, they would have learned to knock it off. Or they woulda done it and gotten a new girlfriend. Or they woulda done it and gotten a sexual harrasment suit. Even as an adult they wouldn't be labeled a sexual predator for such actions!

If it were MY daughter it happened to, I would have told her to get used to it, and find a way to defend yourself from it. Because its gonna happen again, be it in school, at a bar, or on the street. And you can't run to the cops everytime a guy acts like an idiot! Then I would tell her exactly the kind of things she should run to the cops for! Thank you very much!

The label of sexual predator should remain one only used to describe actual sexual criminals!
Field Researcher
#14 Old 30th Jul 2007 at 8:00 AM
Um, no one has labeled these kids as sexual predators that I see here, so Ayshala, I don't know where you got that from. And with a 4th degree sexual assault, it's highly unlikely they'll have to register as sex offenders. What bothers me is that people assume sexual offenders just appear out of nowhere -- that there are no warning signs. Well, guess what? Highly inappropriate boundaries are a big warning sign! What bothers me is when (for example) a 20-year old school bus driver is arrested for sexual assault and everyone goes, "Why didn't we know anything?" Then, when a teen does something sexually inappropriate the same people go, "Come on, he's just a kid!" These behaviors start somewhere, and telling our daughters to get used to it or just deal with it isn't going to solve any problems.
#15 Old 30th Jul 2007 at 8:04 AM
Quote:
If it were MY daughter it happened to, I would have told her to get used to it, and find a way to defend yourself from it. Because its gonna happen again, be it in school, at a bar, or on the street. And you can't run to the cops everytime a guy acts like an idiot! Then I would tell her exactly the kind of things she should run to the cops for! Thank you very much!


You would tell your daughter to get used to men being allowed to touch her wherever they please because they feel like it?

In this case, I don't think the punishment fit the crime, but the behavior was inappropriate. No one should have to just deal with someone slapping their behind because someone else can't or won't control their actions. If people have to just get used to being physically violated, how do they learn that the behavior is wrong? Why send the girl (or guy in vise versa situations) the message that guys can touch/hit them (whether or not in a sexual manner) while sending the guys the message that there is no recourse for their actions? That's a dangerous message to send to an adolescent. Sure, they're going to grow up - but why not make sure they grow up right. That way, they don't become the guy that slaps you on the behind in the workplace, at the bar, at the grocery store, or even much much worse.

A boys will be boys attitude does not foster respect for fellow human beings. Maybe some sort of suspension would have better served them, but not completely ignoring the situation and excusing it because of age.

If you are 12 and can't follow a keep your hands to yourself policy, something that is taught from a very young age, you need some kind of punishment.
#16 Old 30th Jul 2007 at 8:24 AM
Quote: Originally posted by ayshala
Uuuuuuuuuuuuuumm, because yer a freakin 12 yr old boy??????


12 years old is exactly when they need to be discipline.

You are okay with teaching your Male children that slapping other peoples butt is appropriate and that your female children should learn to just accept it?

Its not okay to accept people slapping your butt! no matter what age they are.
Lab Assistant
#17 Old 30th Jul 2007 at 9:16 AM
Quote: Originally posted by pieridae
Um, no one has labeled these kids as sexual predators that I see here, so Ayshala, I don't know where you got that from.


The first post states... "Now, Cory Mashburn and Ryan Cornelison, both 13, face the prospect of 10 years in juvenile detention and a lifetime on the sex offender registry in a case that poses a fundamental question: When is horseplay a crime?" Thats where I got it from. Now if this goes thru or not is another matter. Regardless if prosecuters aim high and that is the game,.....there should NEVER have been any mention of such charges for this!

Quote: Originally posted by pieridae
And with a 4th degree sexual assault, it's highly unlikely they'll have to register as sex offenders. What bothers me is that people assume sexual offenders just appear out of nowhere -- that there are no warning signs. Well, guess what? Highly inappropriate boundaries are a big warning sign! What bothers me is when (for example) a 20-year old school bus driver is arrested for sexual assault and everyone goes, "Why didn't we know anything?" Then, when a teen does something sexually inappropriate the same people go, "Come on, he's just a kid!" These behaviors start somewhere, and telling our daughters to get used to it or just deal with it isn't going to solve any problems.


Slapping a girl on the butt in Jr. High and showing signs of being a sexual predator are two very very very very different things. Thats exactly the problem. Something like this just mocks the actual crimes that define a sexual predator. IF the 12 yr old boys were constantly slapping girls butts and more, were sneaking into the girls locker room, were photographing or filming them....then it's high time to take things seriousely. But a hormone driven CHILD slapping a girls butt is nothing to get arrested for! Especially if, as my personal impression has it from what I've read, this was the boys first offense!


As for all the other replies, I wonder if anyone actually read my post???????

If it were MY daughter it happened to, I would have told her to get used to it, and find a way to defend yourself from it.

Did I say "just accept it?" Nope. I said get used to it, it will happen alot in your life. Learn how to defend yourself from it. You cannot run to the cops everytime something like that happens in the adult world, much less the childs world. Let me just make sure everyone read it this time.... LEARN TO DEFEND YOURSELF FROM IT. Be it telling authority, physically defending your body, or verbally telling the person off.........and so on. I would NOT teach my daughter to have her classmate arrested for slapping her butt! And since when does that mean that it teaches boys its OK? It's not OK, but it is a very minor offense! And for the well being of everyone involved, should have been treated as such. Dealt with but not overblown!
#18 Old 30th Jul 2007 at 9:24 AM
Quote: Originally posted by Paper.Pal::.
...

maybe the girls should have hit them back.

=P


According to the article, they did:

Quote:
All told, Roache interviewed 14 students besides Cornelison and Mashburn. Seven confessed to bottom-swatting, including one girl who described it as "a handshake we do." Two of the alleged victims said they had swatted boys' buttocks themselves.

"She will touch Cory after he touches her first," Roache wrote in the report.


So why aren't these girls being prosecuted?
Mad Poster
#19 Old 30th Jul 2007 at 10:20 AM
This is too much. A perfect example of democracy gone wild, where you cannot breath for fear of intruding on your neighbour. What about guys who slap your butt on the street, or guys that touch you on a crowded bus? Do you put those people in jail? Mind you, those are usually adults, not kids, and you don't greet them that way every day. Raping someone is sex offence, not this.
#20 Old 30th Jul 2007 at 10:36 AM
The sentence is absurd. They´re only kids! 13 years old childish pre-adolescent kids with hormones and mischief on their minds, for gods sake! There must be a different way to punish them, like some "raise-awareness"-class in school. (though I think the teachers/schoolboard should take it, cause 13-year old boys have been chasing girls for ever and ever. Is there possibly a way to forbid human behaviour alltogether?)
I agree with whomever said the girls could have hit back, or defended themselves. After all it sounds like play to me. Im sure we did it all the time when I was in school... Not that its okay. But whats wrong with just talking to the childen about it, and do some teaching instead? It sounds to me, the adults involved completely lack both judgement and control in this situation. Sad.
Theorist
#21 Old 30th Jul 2007 at 12:07 PM
I think in THIS society, 13 years olds should probably know better. They shouldn't have been arrested though, as that seems very severe.

Schools seem to have zero tolerance for 'anything' but a lot of times it is like they make up the rules as they go along.

Why don't they have some sort of assembly or talk about 'proper behavior' BEFORE these sort of incidents?

Pretty soon you won't be able to do a thing anywhere because you might upset someone, somewhere by something. A bit extreme, yes, but it's so crazy now...!

"If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went." Will Rogers
#22 Old 30th Jul 2007 at 12:27 PM
Default Read the police Report
http://blog.oregonlive.com/oregonia..._county_sp.html

quote:
Name of Victim went on to tell me (Marshall Roache) that Ryan and cory have been touching her and other girls for several weeks. She said Ryan has even grabbed her breast in the hallway about two weeks ago. She told me that he, "Scooped," her breast, grabbing it under the breast, cupping it with his hand, then lifting it. She stated whenever she tells Ryan not to touch her, he says it's , "An accident." Victim was very reluctant to tell me about the scooping incident and stated she was embarrassed. She had great difficulty describing the incident and would only refer to her breast by calling it her, "Chest", and pointing to her left breast.
Test Subject
#23 Old 30th Jul 2007 at 12:42 PM
Quote: Originally posted by nixie
http://blog.oregonlive.com/oregonia..._county_sp.html

quote:
Name of Victim went on to tell me (Marshall Roache) that Ryan and cory have been touching her and other girls for several weeks. She said Ryan has even grabbed her breast in the hallway about two weeks ago. She told me that he, "Scooped," her breast, grabbing it under the breast, cupping it with his hand, then lifting it. She stated whenever she tells Ryan not to touch her, he says it's , "An accident." Victim was very reluctant to tell me about the scooping incident and stated she was embarrassed. She had great difficulty describing the incident and would only refer to her breast by calling it her, "Chest", and pointing to her left breast.

Stuff like this worries....what worries me even more is the fact that people are saying this is horseplay.What do people consider sexual harrassment? Their punishment is way too harsh but to just downplay this as "horseplay" is sad.
Instructor
#24 Old 30th Jul 2007 at 1:02 PM
What Nixie described with the breast is harassment. Not slapping one another on the behind. Sports players do it all the time, who's prosecuting them?

I had my butt grabbed in 7th grade. My reaction was to either hit them back (arm or chest, depending on what I could reach on the offending party) or tell them off. I got in trouble once for hitting them back, which vaporized when I told the teacher what he'd done. That was the first time I realized that it was not only annoying, but apparently wrong. I was a general tomboy in middle school - I saw boys as great friends (even now my male friends outnumber my female friends at least 2 to 1), but not much else till I was in high school.

I don't think these boys need to be arrested and put on the sex offender list. Do they need some sensitivity training? Yea. Do they need to have some in school suspension? Definitely. But we also have to teach our daughters that no, it's not OK for anyone to touch you if you don't want to be touched. You tell a teacher, you hit them, you do whatever you need to do to make it stop.

But this is a gross overreaction. They're not sex offenders. They're normal prepubescent boys. This is age appropriate and very normal. Send them to sensitivity training, send them to a suspension room. Don't arrest them.

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#25 Old 30th Jul 2007 at 1:27 PM
I didn't describe it, chelleypie, the victim described it, i just quoted. those are the thing the "prepubescent boys" were doing.
 
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