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Original Poster
#1 Old 24th Feb 2008 at 5:50 AM
Default 'Mandatory' volunteerism?
Interesting if not frightening approach by Connecticut Sen. Chris Dodd.

Quote:
(...)

Connecticut Sen. Chris Dodd, whose ideas on public service should get a better reception from voters than his recent bid for the Democratic presidential, gets its.

Dodd's plan for an enforced comprehensive national service focuses on drawing upon "the very best of our character."

This would be the new American patriotism at work -- a more insular approach that inspires that ubiquitous village as Sen. Hillary Clinton once encouraged, but not the bragging rights of missionaries to the third world as the Peace Corps became better know for.

But the Dodd plan includes a particular position that's worth pursuing by the next president because it drills down beyond the college-age graduate to the budding adulthood of all high school graduates.

Every student in America would be required to perform 100 hours of community-based service prior to high school graduation.

It would be a mistake to assume teenagers will appreciate clearing trash from highway shoulders or fishing out debris from public streams as their contribution to their community.

That is work that is suitable for well-guarded prison populations or perhaps more beneficial to society for the hordes of jobless ex-cons being released everyday.

The high school years are as much an impressionable age as a time when young people need to accomplish something that is impressionable.

Learning process

If the goal is inciting patriotism and pride of ownership at the local level, then targeting mandatory volunteerism to the learning process will be critical.

Dodd's proposal calls for integrating school-based voluntarism with academics.

He wants to "give every student in America an opportunity to gain new knowledge and skills while contributing to their communities and their own sense of pride."


Now on the surface, it sounds like a decent idea. But too call such action "Voluntary" when it would be required to just graduate from High school is far from Voluntary. Dodds calls this the "New American patriotism at work", too me it just sounds like "Forced Labor".

So that's enough of my rant.

What is your opinion, does this sound like some thing that should be pushed and passed into law that all students must be forced to "Volunteer" in order to graduate?

Erasing One Big Astounding Mistake All-around
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Top Secret Researcher
#2 Old 24th Feb 2008 at 5:59 AM
There are currently school districts that require community service prior to graduation, it's just not a widespread thing. If I hadn't moved away, I would've had to log 75 hours (used to be 60, but the requirement changed) starting right after elementary school until 12th grade or I couldn't have graduated in the county where I used to live. I think it's a good idea, but 100 hours is maybe a bit extreme. However, there are in-school ways to earn hours, as I know that at least one mandatory class in each of the middle school grade levels included some volunteer stuff.

Edit: Panda, I'm fairly sure (actually pretty much convinced) that you live where I used to live. It's rather creepy. :p

Top Secret Researcher
#3 Old 24th Feb 2008 at 6:01 AM
It's at my school. You need seventy five hours of community service and it starts the summer after fifth grade. Almost everything can get you service hours if you can write about ti convincingly.

I don't like it, becasue I hate filling out those stupid forms to give to guidance, and guidance hates that fact that I'm strictly honest about what I do (volunteer in a city school helping teach algebra, and a rape crisis center, and other unsavory places) but I do know that its helped me to grow as a person to do these things and that I wouldn't have bothered if it wasn't required.

But if you don't want to go out of your way to get hours by taking certain classes you can get plenty, and many extracurricular activities (drama, robotics, athletics) give you hours if you spin it carefully on the form. So really by the time your a senior its only the lazy bums who constantly forget to fill out the forms (you ahve to do so within a year of the service) who can't meet the requirement. Otherwise its solely bragging rights.

The humor of a story on the internet is in direct inverse proportion to how accurate the reporting is.
Top Secret Researcher
#4 Old 24th Feb 2008 at 6:29 AM
First off, I'd like to say that Mandatory Volunteer-ism is an oxymoron. Second of all why does this man want to control what I want to do? In context, I mean, if it's mandatory to volunteer in his eyes, then why is it even called volunteering in the first place? It's called being obligatory if you think about it. Now if this is going to go national, I don't think it's a good idea. You don't have to be a volunteer to be a patriot. I think if you want to help volunteer, well that's a good thing, but forcing someone to volunteer is unconstitutional. That's like saying "go to the store, but don't buy anything." (bad anaology yes.) I mean I don't -mind- volunteering, unless I'm forced to. This is basically pushing all the kids into a corner and saying, "you have to do what the government tells you to, or you can't graduate." (Off Topicness ->) That's basically what they're doing over here in Massachusetts. We have this huge test Called the MCAS, where they make 2nd 3rd, 4th, 8th, and 10th Graders take. The 8th and 10th grade ones are required for students to graduate.

I'm tired of all this bull crap coming from the government, saying OH you need to take this drug, oh you need this test to do that, oh you need to volunteer or your future is gone. Let Americans of all ages do as they please. The government just needs to back off. I shouldn't have to volunteer if I don't want to. Maybe there are others who do want to volunteer to have a good transcript and whatnot. I can not take all of the government's bull any more.

Saying someone has to volunteer in order to graduate doesn't make sense at all. If we are being forced to do something, we shouldn't have to do it. I think teens should have a say on this. But oh wait, we can't vote. Darn. It looks like an unconstitutional bill will be passed.


I might have more to think of... but yeah. I think I'm finished with my rant.


Moderator
retired moderator
#5 Old 24th Feb 2008 at 6:41 AM
I think it's ridiculous. Well maybe that's a little too harsh, but I certainly don't think it's a good idea.

When I was in High School we had "graduation standards" (aka grad standards), which were stupid and time-consuming projects that had to be completed in order to graduate. Everyone hated them, no one put any time into them, and they were pretty much completely pointless (and a lame idea for promoting educational participation IMO).

Although the surface of this idea might be good, what it will cause won't be good. Why not, as adults, simply equip our teenagers with the tools to survive and thrive in the "real world" rather than forcing them to work or volunteer? They aren't going to want to do it (face it, how many teenagers enjoy the things they are made to do?) and it will just make for more rebellion.

Formerly known as boolPropped
Field Researcher
#6 Old 24th Feb 2008 at 7:17 AM
One of those things where the heart is in the right place (cause honostly, whose gonna say that those people who work at soup kitchens are going to rot in hell?), but the brain isn't there.

My great aunt used to volenteer at the local library, restocking books. She was there so often, she was practically an employee. That is, until she was told she couldn't volenteer because they had too many kids looking for easy hours, and they had to take them first. She was devastated, and the hired staff would have rather had her then the disrespectful kids who saw it as just another class.

Case in point, I find that the whole nature of volenteering (doing something for the community with out any benefits for yourself) is completely disregarded when you need to gather so many hours to get out of school. At this point, it becomes a job. But since the thing is required, and the people required to do it are forced to do it with out pay, I see it as no different then state mandated slavery.
Top Secret Researcher
#7 Old 24th Feb 2008 at 7:38 AM
Quote: Originally posted by hszmv
people required to do it are forced to do it with out pay, I see it as no different then state mandated slavery.



That's the word I was looking for. Man, I feel stupid. You're right, it would be deemed salvery. Do they think teenagers are stupid? Do you realize that the teens of today are the children of the baby boomers? (well some of us are, in a sense) Do you know how much they can overthrow the government with that many people? I don't want this nation to have another Vietnamesque era where people my age go to fight in a sensless war and DIE. We need to stop the government from coming into our live and tell them get the heck out. We can find a way to fight this "Mandatory Volunteering." Why should we do someone else's job for free, without pay if we don't want to?


#8 Old 24th Feb 2008 at 7:50 AM
Quote: Originally posted by hszmv
One of those things where the heart is in the right place (cause honostly, whose gonna say that those people who work at soup kitchens are going to rot in hell?), but the brain isn't there.

My great aunt used to volenteer at the local library, restocking books. She was there so often, she was practically an employee. That is, until she was told she couldn't volenteer because they had too many kids looking for easy hours, and they had to take them first. She was devastated, and the hired staff would have rather had her then the disrespectful kids who saw it as just another class.

Case in point, I find that the whole nature of volenteering (doing something for the community with out any benefits for yourself) is completely disregarded when you need to gather so many hours to get out of school. At this point, it becomes a job. But since the thing is required, and the people required to do it are forced to do it with out pay, I see it as no different then state mandated slavery.


THANK YOU!!!!!!

What is absolutely disgusting, insidious, twisted, and wrong is the whole idea of the government/Dodd trying to wrap it up under the guise of patriotism. Bollocks!
#9 Old 24th Feb 2008 at 8:11 AM
I wouldn't go so far as to say it's slavery. But the disaffected youth of today could do with a little hard work every now and again. Maybe if they got paid? Well, getting your GED is almost like getting paid. In a round-a-bout way. I know my school didn't have this..
It's kind of like an indentured servant. Sort of.
#10 Old 24th Feb 2008 at 10:33 AM
While I'm thinking about it... Amish Nick, would you PLEASE source your articles. Thank you.
Top Secret Researcher
#11 Old 24th Feb 2008 at 10:56 AM
I think the community service idea is good. In my school we had something similar in the lower year of Sixth Form, just to help people have an experience and to be able to place this on their CVs to help them get into University. I ended up working during some of my free periods at the school library, and that actually helped me decide that I wanted to be a librarian. It was fun, and even after that year was over, I'd still get people coming up to me asking for help. :D

I would like to clear up the little matter of my sanity as it has come into question. I am not in any way, shape, or form, sane. Insane? Hell yes!

People keep calling me 'evil.' I must be doing something right.

SilentPsycho - The Official MTS2 Psycho
Inventor
#12 Old 24th Feb 2008 at 12:02 PM
It is all an old trend wrapped up in new packaging and the government of today is trying to go back to the policies that were in place before people started screaming for a Bill of Rights.

Patriotism has taken on its own identity/life of its own with/and a mind of its own. It is not enough to be born in America and pay your taxes, you now have to wear a flag pin to your person or subject yourself to volunteering to make up for what the government sees as the coming lack when they decide to fix immigration policies. The billions of tax payers money that finds itself else where doing things for other countries that is not being done for this country is a joke. And to think that if you are paying attention and speak out, you are given labels like liberal or unpatriotic. The youth is already weighted down with a whole lot of mandates for graduation credits only to be dumped into a system that tells them they are to uneducated to secure the top jobs so we must move those jobs else where.

As the many sleep walk in this country, as it is the only way to believe/hold on to the American Dream, the dream looks a lot different once you are awake, and its not a good/pretty sight.
Top Secret Researcher
#13 Old 24th Feb 2008 at 12:07 PM
Quote: Originally posted by SilentPsycho
I think the community service idea is good. In my school we had something similar in the lower year of Sixth Form, just to help people have an experience and to be able to place this on their CVs to help them get into University. I ended up working during some of my free periods at the school library, and that actually helped me decide that I wanted to be a librarian. It was fun, and even after that year was over, I'd still get people coming up to me asking for help. :D


That's understandable, but were you forced to do it? If you weren't forced to volunteer then there's no weight on your shoulders, in which you didn't have to do that to graduate. But if you were that's a whole different story.


Test Subject
#14 Old 24th Feb 2008 at 1:40 PM
Mandatory? Isn't volunteering...I dunno...voluntary?

I think it could encourage some kids to do good for the community, but overall it sounds like a bad idea. For example: When children are forced to take a class, you have people who enjoy the class and those who can't stand it or make no effort. But when children choose a class, you have more people who are excited about it since they chose it. If community service is forced, some kids will just show up and goof off just to get the hours. If they were working with people or animals, they might harass them. I don't think the elderly would appreciate some rowdy teenagers slacking off in their nursing home.

Also, if community service is forced, I don't think it teaches as much. It takes the meaning out of something when you do it because you have to. It becomes, "Why do you have to do this? Because I said so!" instead of "Because it benefits the community".
Forum Resident
Original Poster
#15 Old 24th Feb 2008 at 2:50 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Reindeer911
While I'm thinking about it... Amish Nick, would you PLEASE source your articles. Thank you.
First link is the source article. The rest are all talking about it.

http://www.google.com/search?q=mand...19&start=0&sa=N

Erasing One Big Astounding Mistake All-around
Test Subject
#16 Old 24th Feb 2008 at 4:35 PM
As someone who works with Teenagers I think this idea is laughable, teenagers always want to rebel, its their nature. If you tell them something is mandatory they are going to view it as wrong, especially if it is something like volunteer work. It would be much more beneficial to introduce more self appointed work experience into the curiculum, allowing them to both do some work and still have it matched to their interests.
Top Secret Researcher
#17 Old 24th Feb 2008 at 5:05 PM
OK, not gonna lie, if I DIDN'T have the mandatory volunteerism put on by the county, and was looking at it from the view of people that aren't doing it, then I would agree, impinging on rights, ain't volunteering, etc etc etc.

But my school doesn't call it volunteering, they call it community service hours. And you have SIX YEARS TO GET THEM and you get twenty free for taking required classes in sixth and ninth grade (assuming you remeber to fill out that damnable form). So six years to get fifty five hours is nto that much, especially since you can count almost anything. Being active in youth group? Counts. Being in drama club? Counts. Heading a school club? Counts. it's not all serving at soup kitchens and volunteering at the library. Except for the slackers that don't fill out the form *waves cheerily*

And everyone is used to it. You don't hear people complaining that they're worried about graduating because of service hours, you hear them complaining because they've failed algebra. Really the only problem with my school and service hours is that some people with several hundred get really pretentious about it. "Ohai, how many hours do you ahve?" "80" "Oh wow, thats so few, I have 250!" *in head* "Well la-dee-da ms overachiever"

But for the ones that acutally go out of their way to get service hours it does help them since there's so many options. This has been in my county for years so they ahve lots of programs pretty much devoted to giving teens these hours. You can volunteer at a camp, at girl scout camp if you an aide they hand you the form at the end of the week (you do still have to write that wretched little essay). The public library has a program where you can do storytime for kids and get a few hours a month. Actually you CAN'T volunteer at the library playing at being a librarian, they won't let anyone under 18. :shrug:

(Yes, I deserve a slap in the face for bringing this up, however...) And I see how people are upset about having the government mandate being active in the community, regardless of how easy it is to slack off in that regard. But how is that any different from no child left behind except its patriotism which is obviously something many people object to :rolls eyes: as opposed to readin' writin' and 'rithmetic?

The humor of a story on the internet is in direct inverse proportion to how accurate the reporting is.
Top Secret Researcher
#18 Old 24th Feb 2008 at 5:56 PM
I think that some sort of requirement in terms of community service is a good thing, not a form of slavery. That comparison is more than a little flawed and an exaggeration.

The program I'm used to is almost more about being involved in the community than anything. You could get hours counted for working the concession stand at boys and girls club events, for example, as long as you wrote on the form that you learned about helping others and yourself as a person. Seriously, it's not a big deal once you get used to it, and 75 hours is not hard to achieve. There were kids getting 200 by senior year where I went to school.

Maybe the solution is for the government to require, say, 30 or 40 hours, nothing much, for everyone before graduation, and let individual school districts decide on bigger requirements if they choose.

Theorist
#19 Old 24th Feb 2008 at 5:57 PM
Quote: Originally posted by JFK
Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country.


It seems to me that Dodd, in typical liberal fashion, thinks that only the government can tell you what you can do for your country. If its mandatory, it is not volunteer. if it is mandatory, students will complete their community hours because they have to, not because they want to, and will not continue to do community service after their "sentence" is up. Really, how is this different than juveniles who commit crimes getting sentenced to community service? I know that if I am forced to do something, I have a bad attitude about it. I don't mind volunteering, but I HATE being volunteered. If its completely my choice, I am there because I want to be, and I will have a positive work ethic. If I am forced to do it, why should I give my best? Perhaps instead of making it mandatory, a better idea might be to offer those that willingly perform X amount of community service hours a reward...like a $500 scholarship to college, or something like that. That way, it is still the student's choice to volunteer or not to, and it provides an incentive to volunteer, which would increase the number of students doing it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obama on ABC's This Week, discussing Obamacare
What it's saying is, is that we're not going to have other people carrying your burdens for you anymore
umm...Isn't having other people carry your medical burden exactly what national health care is?
Lab Assistant
#20 Old 24th Feb 2008 at 6:12 PM
Glory, I would move to Australia if they pass the law to do so. That's like a total of five days almost, right there. I would happily take a video of some of the blondies in my school picking up trash, but seriously....has he gone over his head or something? It's already bad enough that George W. Bush wants to build "The Great Wall of United States of America" to stop terrorism. I'm starting to think this country isn't going to be free in the next 15 years, with all the ideas they are throwing at everybody. *My opinion*

*Sorry if I am offending anybody in advance. I'm not good at politics, but I know some of it to get the idea of what's going on.*
#21 Old 24th Feb 2008 at 6:17 PM
Good point Davious. Forcing people to do something will result in them resenting doing community service rather than having the drive to do it on their own. I like the idea of rewarding students for doing community service. That would seem more logical, no?
#22 Old 24th Feb 2008 at 8:34 PM
I can see some problems with it. For instance if every student was required to do volunteer hours it would lower the effect volunteering has on college apps and kids who wanted to stick out would have to do even more volunteer work. And for alot of students it's hard to squeeze in that extra time with study, work, sports/clubs, and the 100 volunteer hours they already have to do. Volunteering is called volunteering for a reason. If some college bound students are going to slack off and not volunteer, then they are up against the many other students who have taken the time to do some service.
#23 Old 24th Feb 2008 at 9:10 PM
I wonder if this means that the government could reinstate the draft and still call it a volunteer army? LOL!
Lab Assistant
#24 Old 24th Feb 2008 at 9:39 PM
Hmm. I think it's crap. Freedom ought to mean something. One thing that I'm pretty sure it doesn't mean is mandatory labor. For that same reason, I don't think education should be mandatory. If education is going to be mandatory, though, then I don't think you can turn around and regulate the kind of work that kids do outside of school or after school hours. Kids are not resources to be used as the government sees fit; kids are citizens of this country, albeit minor ones. As such, they have free will. If you can't force an adult to perform free labor unless he or she breaks a law, then you shouldn't be able to force a kid to do so. It is perhaps even more appalling to force teens into free labor than it is to force adults into it. When you do so to minors, you are clearly taking advantage of the fact that they have not yet reached voting age and therefore have no direct influence on any policy that you set in regard to them. To mandate the forced labor of a population that has no right to participate in the political process is about as unAmerican as it gets! That an elected official would even dream of such a program makes me think that he needs to go back and study the philosophical origins of this country.

That said, I will freely acknowledge my bias against the way the volunteer system pulls young people in. I volunteered a lot when I was younger. I did so because I was assured by counselors, teachers, and other adults that it would get me ahead in college admissions and honor societies and scholarships and whatnot. I served food in soup kitchens. I built houses for Habitat for Humanity. I built a handicapped-accessible butterfly garden. I picked up trash. I organized events (like Relay for Life). Really, I did a lot of volunteer work in high school and college. In college, I was even the President of the Community Service house. Mostly, I did this as much and as often as I did because I enjoyed it. I felt good about myself after a day of hammering floorboards or serving soup. I liked the idea that there were people like me in the world. It made me feel as though I could lean on the, someday, if worse ever came to worse.

I lost my faith in the system when I want to my financial aid office and said, "Look - I'm graduating in the top 1%. I run every community service organization on this campus. I'm a class officer. I work for the Abroad office when I'm at school and for an insurance company when I'm at home. But here's the thing: I can't afford to come back to school for my last semester. Heck, I can't even afford to eat. Wanna see my medical records from when, due to malnutrition, I passed out at work over winter break?" I even offered to get married, if that would help with the "need based" stuff. When I asked if there was any scholarship or emergency money or something that they could find so that one of their most deserving students could graduate, they pointed me toward private, high-interest, last-minute loans. I have not volunteered since. Ideally, you volunteer so that you can help those less fortunate than yourself. But when I was the less fortunate one, there was no one but the loan shark (I mean officer) there to help me. If we're going to require that young kids help others, I think we need to be honest with them about the fact that there is no tit for tat. The fact that they are required to help someone else by no means indicates that, when they need help, someone will be there to help them.
Inventor
#25 Old 24th Feb 2008 at 10:52 PM
I can see both sides here. My school had a small compulsory 'communications' program for the year 11 students - this meant that either you had to mentor a group of year 7 students for an hour every week, or that you had to undertake a short community project of some sort. The school also 'strongly encouraged' additional community service - not compulsory, but a lot of people took part in it. For example, some of us started restoring the creek and wetlands around the school, some people went up north to work on a remote-area literacy program, others raised money and school materials to send to our sister school in East Timor, etc.

The flip side is that I've also supervised a fair number of schoolkids doing compulsory community work. A handful are fantastic and love what they're doing, but a lot resent having to be there- they piss about and generally make life difficult for everyone around them. As a result, we no longer take schoolkids.

Going back to those of us who did voluntary work in high school- a lot of us still volunteer in some shape or form. For me personally, it's such an important part of my life - I used to rescue and train longears (hence the username) for a shelter near my house, and since crippling myself I do admin/fundraising work and provide veterinary advice where I can. The benefits all up have been huge- I get a lot from the animals, the shelter work helped me get into vet school plus gave me a good relationship with several of the clinicians, I see weird and wonderful medical cases and I've made some wonderful friends. I wish that more kids could have those experiences in their own areas of interest.

I think that community service is a great thing for kids to do, but I think dressing it up as patriotism and trying to call it voluntary creates a bit of a problem. It strikes me almost as manipulative, which will alienate a lot of people and will counter any benefits. They'd be better to work to the sort of system that my school did - a small amount of required work (which nobody ever tried to term 'voluntary') and encourage the students to do further voluntary work. Perhaps even provide some sort of incentive - maybe extra credit or some sort of privileges at school. I wish that more kids could have the experiences that I've had.

Please call me Laura
"The gene pool needs more chlorine."
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