On another debate I was reminded of this which happened a few years ago.

I was writing an essay for my English Literature A-level coursework, on a book by the feminist author Margaret Atwood, and I was discussing feminism with some friends, and a couple of opinions came up. Below are the direct quotes from my friends, which I think are relatively common arguments against feminism today.

"Lemon&Lime, there is no need for feminism any more. We already have equal rights!"

"It's only like, lesbians and hippys who go on about being a feminist, like she just said - you've already got equal rights so what's the issue?"

Me - "So do you considor yourself a feminist?"
Friend - "I'm not a feminist! Not even slightly, I just don't agree with their ideas."
Me - "But you're at college, so you must think that you have the right to further education."
Friend - "I told you, I'm not a feminist! I'm actually offended that you say I am."

So I want to ask whether people think that feminism is still relevant today?

Yes! or atleast I think so.
I'm only 17 but I know that women have had to fight for a lot and from what I've seen and heard lately, some men are still treating women like they're supposed to do what women are supposedly born to do, like cooking and being a little house wife. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what women were made to do, right? Grow up, have no plans to further their education and get married. It seems like they're trying to undo it all.
I get pissed off everytime a guy asks me to get back in the kitchen, I'd only heard that come from immature little punks but lately I've been hearing it from grown men too.

Sorry if what I'm saying is not exactly what you meant

Right now, no, there is no need for feminism. We do have equal rights, as Argentina has a woman president, UK has a woman queen. Women lose their virginity from 16 to 24 years, and are not called "sluts" anymore, as they used to. Yes, until early 20th century, feminism was needed, because women practically had no rights.

I have never really considered my a 'feminist' per se although I do believe that women should, of course, have equal rights. In the same way I have never considered myself an animal rights activist or racial equality campaigner. This doesnt mean I don't have quite strong opinions on all three. It just means, I suppose, that I don't voice my opinions publicly on a day to day basis.

I think the problem with women not wanting to label themselves 'feminist' comes from the fact that 'feminism' has taken on an inaccurate and slightly unwanted association. Ask any person to describe their idea of a typical 'feminist' and I bet alot of them will describe a short haired lesbian wearing masculine clothing, NO BRA and being quite aggressive and argumentative. IMO being a feminist has somehow become associated with being 'unfeminine'. People mistakenly assume that feminists 'want to be men' and are therefore don't wear pretty feminine clothes, have doors opened for them, etc, etc.

Obviously in an ideal world everyone would be treated equally whether they are male, female, black, white etc. In the West generally speaking we are fortunate because although we still fall a long way short of actual 'sexual equality' we are years ahead of, say, the middle east, where women's rights are practically non existent. I think today the main area where women are clearly discriminated against in the West is the workplace where men are openly paid at a higher rate than women in an identical job and this has to be sorted out. To anyone with an inch of common sense, two people who perform the same job with the same skill and success should be paid an equal wage regardless of their sex.Those against this will say that women cannot be treated equally in business because, as the childbearers, they are likely to need time off for maternity leave and childbirth etc which is true but we can't change the fact that its only women who can bear children so if we want the human race to continue we have to accept that and not penalise women for something they cannot physically change.

I need to rein myself in now because I could go on about this for six pages but basically 'yes' we need equal rights for women now ( and some women in the world need rights period!). I think society needs to realise that you can be a 'feminine feminist'. Establishing equal rights for women does not mean creating an androgynous race. We still need to embrace and celebrate the differences between men and women but just give them equal rights.

We HAVE same rights as men, people! There are just a couple of countries where women are waaay under men. We even have the right to stay above!

Saying feminism has no need to exist because equal rights have been achieved is about as logical as saying NASA has no need to exist because we've already landed on the moon. While the feminist movement has made great advances for women's rights, there are still several issues that need to be tackled (mostly international), and we have to vigilantly monitor the choices of the feminist movements and the governments influenced by them to make sure equal rights do not become special rights, or worse, the centuries of advances collapse and regress.

@Emily: I do agree that these sorts of insults are sexist accounts of trolling in real life, but please don't bash the "old fashioned" roles of women. There are multitudes of true-blue feminist women who actually prefer the role of a housewife or a stay-at-home mom. This should be perfectly alright, because feminism has never been about destroying old life choices, but instead it has been about creating new choices for women to have. Just because a woman doesn't choose to take these new choices means that one should judge her as less of an individual.

I live in a family where men were equal )or even under ) women, as most citizens of America (oh, God bless it. Or not) do. American feminist who fight for women- fFROM AMERICA -rights are:
a) lesbian.
b) frustrated
BUT, if they fight for african and asian women rights, good for them.

emilyyy - That's, um, a little harsh - I'm a housewife. I -like- being a housewife. I enjoy cooking and taking care of my family. Hell, I even enjoy my plaid pastel apron.

It's a choice I've made - I could work, and I have, and I've enjoyed it, but it makes more financial sense for our family to have me stay home and take care of our son than to send him to daycare for now - and it gives me some time to work on the project for what will eventually become a career for me, once he's older.

Sure, if you're -forced- into that kind of role or made to feel inferior for not choosing that kind of lifestyle, it's not pleasant, but part of becoming empowered about your own gender is having the ability to choose what you want to do.

I think women tend to get more crap for staying at home nowadays than if they worked with a family - I know I've gotten some real snotty remarks from women in professional roles about my choices.


TheCreeper, yeaaah, cos only lesbians would care if women are still treated like children in many "men only" professions, harassed and ridiculed (or worse) for taking certain career tracks, still not given equal pay for equal work, and subjected to a double-standard when it comes to our sexuality (women who have several sexual partners are still sluts - men who do so are just "normal").

We've come a long way as a culture in terms of how women are treated, but there's still need for strong-willed folks - both male and female - to stand up when they see injustice and fight for what they believe in.

It's not over yet - and I think the usual confusion of "feminist" with "man-hating lesbian with hairy legs" is getting in the way of some folks realizing that women still often are treated unequally in so many ways on a daily basis - those things still need fixing, and it doesn't necessarily require some flannel-and-boots lesbian to picket about it - just the average woman to say, "Hey, it's not okay to treat me like that."

@Element Leaf; I agree with you, it is fine. I'm not saying it's a bad thing when women prefer being a house wife, I think it's great.. but only if it's because it's what they have chosen. I only think it's bad if a man has convinced a woman that that's what she should be doing for the rest of her life. I'm very sure that things like that still do happen.

emilyyy - There probably are women like that, yes - stuck in a shitty situation and sort of brainwashed by their upbringing. But sad fact is, whether it's that or whether it's an informed decision made by an educated and informed empowered woman, having made that choice, one often still is met with a "Well obviously you must be stuck in the 1950's - surely you are backwards and wrong and stupid to have chosen that," attitude by many - most often in my experience by women in "higher-level" professions. Never have I gotten such a bitchy attitude than from explaining that I'm a SAHM to female doctors.

@HystericalParoxysm;
I'm sorry if I've offended you. I think it's great that there are a lot of stay at home mothers and house wives that enjoy it. I'm just still thinking about what was instead of what is.
I'm just guessing that back then, most women didn't know that they didn't have to live that way if they didn't want to.

Well, in the past, they kind of -did- have to live that way. There weren't many options for women to work - you could be a nurse or a schoolteacher, or maybe a maid/washerwoman/seamstress, but beyond that, your options were pretty limited. Women having to go to work assembling munitions and whatnot for WW2 changed a lot - it was out of necessity, but suddenly women realized they could do "men's work" and that a lot of them enjoyed it, and really, a lot of the equal rights and feminist movement stuff grew out of that.

I'm guessing that it wouldn't have always been easy to work with most of the men.
It's great that things have changed.

I can't wait to see women presidents in Africa. I'll laugh my ass so fucking hard!!! And... maybe they'll CASTRATE stupid dick-wearers for not respecting women. That day will be the victory of us! The pretty sex, the smart sex! And, maybe, even the strong sex. How does that sound? MALE=the weaker sex? MWAHAHAHA!!!

@TheCreeper

Women are still paid less on average than men in the US. Just pointing that out.

Anyway, the problem with feminism is that it's largely lost its direction. After it got equal rights and some other stuff, the movement started in-fighting with itself. So now you got Third Wave Feminism, some of which are pretty standard, back to the original ideas. But some are really freaking radical. So it's kind of fighting with itself, it's the radical ones who get the most attention, and it just causes a whole mess of things.

Then you got some like Phyllis Schlafly, head of the The Eagle Forum, a conservative group based out in Utah, who are strict anti-feminists. Who believes women DO belong in the kitchen and stuff (also brought to you by the Eagle Forum; Conservapedia!).

again @ Creeper

A few countries? Most if not all of Asia, all of the Middle East, most of Africa, probably a few European nations, dunno about South America. That's well more than "a few." And above men? This is the kind of radicalism I'm talking about. Favoring not equality, but superiority, turning the tables. I have no problems about being equal, but I will fight against any movement or idea of superiority/inferiority.

The only reason people say they aren't feminist is because they think it means they must be anti-male. The problem is semantics.



That sounds stupid, because you're trying to be stupid.

Don't forget "The Concerned Women for America" who successfully lobbyed the American Government and were successful in campaigning for the Equal Rights Amendment (ERA) to be abolished before it became law.

ERA would have insured that women are entitled to the same rights as men, also homosexuals and people of different races. My understanding of it was that it would provide a base for people to sue if they had evidence that they weren't being paid equally, etc, similar to a law in the UK. Although the UK version of the law was a joke - only one woman has ever been successful in taking her employer to court, even though she was being paid an incredibly different salary to her male counterparts.

No, I AM stupid. I was just trying to calm these feminists down. I wouldn't castrate my fiance, I need his... oops, bye-bye!

I think one thing is some feminist aren't happy with being equal, they want to be "better", and no gender is better than the other.

I've heard this attitude before and very much disagree with it. If nothing else, just because you've had a victory doesn't mean it's time to start slacking and rest on your laurels...that's how you wind up losing ground again.

I identify myself as a feminist simply because I believe in women being able to choose what to do with their lives and bodies. It's such a shame that feminism has become a dirty word to so many people, especially girls who benefit everyday from it. I'm not just talking about big, lofty goals like voting and education, but things as little as being able to have our own credit cards and bank accounts and property.



One of my history professors contended that concept. For one thing, poor women have always been subject to doing "men's work," not that it ever relieved them of the "double burden" of labor + housework. In the immediate wake of WW2, the same proportion of women held jobs outside the home as they did prior to the US's involvement in the war. As happened after WW1, society's acceptance of their participation in the manly side of the workforce waned after men started coming back.

I'm not saying there wasn't a change in perceptions over the decades or that WW2 had nothing to do with it, just that it there isn't that direct correlation from "We Can Do It!" to civil rights-era feminism as is the assumption.

there will always be a need for feminism until a woman can walk down the street without worrying about being raped. i dont know where i heard this from but its true. ive also heard that one in three women will be a victim of sexual violence at least once during their lifetime. until a woman can earn the same as a man.(not 70 cents on the dollar based on her gender). until the word "double standard" is not used anymore.

This is good to know, since I am a man. I should really come out of the closet as a lesbian already.

You seem to be one of those people who think modern feminists are a bunch of ugly lesbians who were rejected by too many men. You're in for a big surprise.

I'm not going to argue your point, though. I've spent enough time trying to defend that men who claim to be feminist aren't invariably gay or desperate. Ugh.

Problems with that statement:

1) It implies that men are 100% safe from being violated.

2) It implies that women are never rapists themselves...
2a) ...and thus that women are always victims.

Well, yes. Wasn't an immediate jump from Rosie the Riveter to female CEOs, but I think having that situation perhaps opened up a discussion on it - people thinking about it, which eventually led to the acceptance of women in the workplace. Probably would've happened anyway, but being able to go, "Look, we helped win the war, we can contribute to the workforce," certainly didn't hurt.

Years ago, on a social networking site, I remember a group that was called something like "Feminism is the radical idea that women are people!" That pretty much sums up my views. I'm not about to go burning my bra and waving my hairy armpits in men's faces while saying I want to take their jobs and castrate them. Feminism has gotten a bad rap. It's not about women taking over the world. It's about women having the same rights as men.

So, yes, I am a feminist.