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Scholar
Original Poster
#1 Old 3rd Aug 2011 at 6:02 PM
Default "Shadow of the Swastika"
Swastika. I'm sure you people don't need to be told that's going to bring up a shitstorm. I'll give you the song and the lyrics. I'm asking on your opinions on who is it addressing, and what is it about, as well as maybe your general opinions on it as a whole.

This is curious to me. I don't want to put it in the other media forum, because of its subject (just to be on the safe side). And, I'm going to post my opinions as a spoiler; I want everyone else to maybe think about what the song means without the opinions of others, just to see what possible differences may come up. If you don't want to, that's fine. Just thought it could be interesting.

Now, Tyr is one of my favorite bands, and they had a new release in May that I wasn't aware of until today. One of the songs is called "Shadow of the Swastika."

Tyr - "Shadow of the Swastika"

Or for those of you who can't stand metal, or can't listen right now, the lyrics:

----------------------------------------

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Now for my opinions on it:



So what are your thoughts on this song? I brought this up cause there seemed to be some argument about it.

Is that a shillelagh in your pocket, or are you just sinning against God?
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Theorist
#2 Old 3rd Aug 2011 at 8:05 PM
"You who think the hue of your hide means you are to blame"
I take this to mean "those who think that just because you're German you must be a nazi"

It's sad that almost 70 years after the war Germans are still associated with one horrible event.

Hi I'm Paul!
Scholar
#3 Old 4th Aug 2011 at 2:28 AM
Hmmm

In a nutshell I would say the song was about descendents of former Nazi's should not be held accountable for the Holocaust. Being myself descended from former slave owners I tend to agree with that sentiment. I don't however think either atrocities should be forgotten or denied however. I have no patience for Holocaust deniers not that I think that is what this song is about. As to the verse your unsure about I think they are talking about Neo-Nazi's myself, of course I could be wrong.

I have no idea who this band is or what their heritage is so I'm just looking at the lyrics in a literal interpretation.
Instructor
#4 Old 5th Aug 2011 at 3:02 PM
I'm German born and belong to a generation what wasn't around when the war was on, but that didn't stop people from making remarks about the war to me, nasty remarks.

I went to the US for 2 years and I had a job there and this young couple every day at lunchtime would raise their arms and yell 'Heil Hitler' and then laugh their heads off.
I told them that I wasn't even born when the war was on and their response was; "Yeah... but you are German". And it went on with Nazis and Jews remarks.

I wonder how they would have felt if I would have reminded them of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. But I have been brought up with manners...so I didn't.

Nekowolf,
I think your interpretation of the song is spot on.

You can find more of my stuff here: http://www.blackpearlsims.com/downloads.php
Scholar
Original Poster
#5 Old 5th Aug 2011 at 4:09 PM
"I wonder how they would have felt if I would have reminded them of Hiroshima and Nagasaki."

Unfortunately, I wouldn't be surprised if they simply shrug it off. Maybe it's just me, but those bombings don't really seem to come up much as a dark stain on our history. Our history of race-relations comes up as a darker shade in the minds of most, I think. I think, maybe, it's because it happened on our turf, perhaps, outside of wartime? War is an easy excuse to do the extraordinary, whether it be good or bad. I wouldn't be surprised if most don't even really know anything about Hiroshima or Nagasaki, even, sadly.

Is that a shillelagh in your pocket, or are you just sinning against God?
Instructor
#6 Old 5th Aug 2011 at 6:15 PM
I think constantly rubbing people's noses in things never solves anything and impedes positive relations. This is part of the reason Germany went this direction, because the allies wanted reperations and Germany had difficulty with these demands after the first war.

I think awareness of atrocities such as slavery and the actions of the nazi's should never be forgotten, but neither should they be obsessed or held against the descendants of such. There isn't a person alive whose ancestors hasn't killed or opressed someone else at some point if you want to go back far enough.

I do find the german stereotypes a trifle irksome on tv. Either they are nazi's or happy go-lucky beer drinkers in laderhosen. But the same can be said of other racial groups such as the Scots.
Scholar
#7 Old 5th Aug 2011 at 7:41 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Nekowolf
"I wonder how they would have felt if I would have reminded them of Hiroshima and Nagasaki."

Unfortunately, I wouldn't be surprised if they simply shrug it off. Maybe it's just me, but those bombings don't really seem to come up much as a dark stain on our history. Our history of race-relations comes up as a darker shade in the minds of most, I think. I think, maybe, it's because it happened on our turf, perhaps, outside of wartime? War is an easy excuse to do the extraordinary, whether it be good or bad. I wouldn't be surprised if most don't even really know anything about Hiroshima or Nagasaki, even, sadly.


This was pretty much my thought exactly, that they probably wouldn't even know what either one was. Sadly there are plenty of idiots in the world. Personally I would probably have brought up the KKK which sounds like it might have hit closer to home.

I'm frequently mortified by my own countrymen and there was a time when traveling through Europe where I did put the Canadian flag on my luggage. That was during George W's tenure as President and things were a bit tense being an American abroad then.
Lab Assistant
#8 Old 6th Aug 2011 at 3:08 AM
Germans were only following the orders imposed on them by the government that run the country at the time. Hitler was a very dangerous and unforgiving man, He pretty much gassed over 6 millions jews (whoever said there's safety in numbers was lying) so anyone who opposed him really didn't have a long term life expectency, that said, everyone followed him agreed with him, simply because it was the easier and safer option. The germens were not nazis, it was the uniform they were made to wear. I'm not excusing the terrible things they did in the war, because a lot was truly inhuman and unforgivable, yet looking at the bigger picture, they were only string puppet foot soldiers carrying out the orders of a madman.
Top Secret Researcher
#9 Old 6th Aug 2011 at 3:35 AM
Quote: Originally posted by archamedes
Germans were only following the orders imposed on them by the government that run the country at the time. Hitler was a very dangerous and unforgiving man, He pretty much gassed over 6 millions jews (whoever said there's safety in numbers was lying) so anyone who opposed him really didn't have a long term life expectency, that said, everyone followed him agreed with him, simply because it was the easier and safer option. The germens were not nazis, it was the uniform they were made to wear. I'm not excusing the terrible things they did in the war, because a lot was truly inhuman and unforgivable, yet looking at the bigger picture, they were only string puppet foot soldiers carrying out the orders of a madman.


Well said archamedes. My husbands grandparents were german and his grandfather was in the Luftwaffe during the second world war. He did not agree with Hitler but didn't have a choice. Once the war was over they were ashamed and never spoke of it even though they didn't do anything wrong.
Scholar
Original Poster
#10 Old 6th Aug 2011 at 4:08 PM
That is true, however, there are those who believed in what he wanted to accomplish, as well. It is not so simple as everyone was forced into it, there were certainly those who saw merit in his schemes. But of course, many also had no choice, as you point out.

Is that a shillelagh in your pocket, or are you just sinning against God?
Instructor
#11 Old 6th Aug 2011 at 6:43 PM
I think it's hard really for modern people to understand past thinking. It wasn't long ago, that minorities weren't considered human. That it was ok to rape, imprison and keep women dependant by denying them status and rights. While obviously, these attitudes aren't good, they were widespread and the common thought of the time (and sadly still exist in some countries). Its ignorant, but, well, this is the way people have behaved for centuries.

And at the risk of opening a can of worms, the nazi's did some good things for Germans which helped people. Some of their programs benefited the poor and needy germans and gave them opportunities they did not have during economic downturn. A friend of the family, said she got treatement in a hospice being sickly as a child-something she had no opportunity to ever do before, and that being a member of Nazi youth they did not hear of the attrocities committed, only that it was like a summer camp of sort.

I'm not justifying it of course.
Instructor
#12 Old 10th Aug 2011 at 9:28 AM
Plus the sheer amount of science they inadvertently helped progress. Particularly in the field of psychology. It is good that something good came out of it. You can't just paint the entire culture as evil after all, they were only human.

A favourite quote of mine that you helped me remember SImsLover50 goes: "The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there". It's so true but I think a lot of us need reminding of that.
Instructor
#13 Old 10th Aug 2011 at 9:27 PM
I think it is partly because modern people project modern sensabilities on past people and judge them accordingly. Our modern tv and entertainment reflect this as we see historical dramas featuring modern people with modern values even though they are set in the dark ages.

It is difficult for many modern people with priviliges to understand how the great depression, the treaty of versaille and the loss of WWI which affected the German people. There are many factors involved.

I think it is easier for modern folks to paint all that Germany did and all people as evil, when nothing is 100% evil.
Instructor
#14 Old 11th Aug 2011 at 12:25 AM
No one is denying the Holocaust in this thread. At least I don't think anyone is. But the pressures for conformity in Nazi Germany were immense. There is a reason most of the common soldiers and other lower ranking members are mostly given a free pass. They had very little choice even if they didn't believe in what they were doing it was better for them to go along with it and hope the allies stopped the upper echelon. Cut the head off the snake if you will.
Instructor
#15 Old 11th Aug 2011 at 4:36 AM
"SimsLover50: Avoid dividing people into 'modern' and 'past' ones no matter what it was supposed to mean. Fake divisions like that create unnecessary tensions."

I disagree and I will not avoid doing so. I do not consider divisions based on era and period to be 'fake'. When I'm speaking of people judging past individuals I mean just that. People of all eras, not just wartime Germans..

In anthropology there are often shrugs of horror at the idea- for instance that a person might commit human sacrifice such as the aztecs did. However taken into the cultural perspective this was considered neccessary to ensure the survival of their dieties. We might view this through a modern lens as being horrible, however, they thought this was neccessary.

A modern person might look back and say everyone in the past was a racist. And considering modern sentiments this is true, however, past people did not consider it wrong. They did not have a concept for being a racist.

So disagree with you there.

"There is no excuse 'I were told to have done it'. Killing or ordering to kill innocent people is a sign that a person lacks any signs of human feelings or compassion."

It depends on the situaiton. If it is kill or be killed, and you are heavily indocrtinated, some people will kill when normally they might not, or to do what they have to do to survive. If you have no choice, you have no choice. Now if they have the option to refuse and not be punished for doing so and still choose to kill. thats a different

"I remember a scandal that one writer caused. It was a couple of years ago when he denied Holocaust."

I see no one denying the holocaust. The actions of the nazis to folk they deemed their enemies and even their own people were awful and evil no doubt.
Top Secret Researcher
#16 Old 11th Aug 2011 at 8:33 AM
Quote: Originally posted by SimsLover50
If it is kill or be killed, and you are heavily indocrtinated, some people will kill when normally they might not, or to do what they have to do to survive.


Exactly, we are all victims of propaganda and indoctrination, especially in wartime.
Field Researcher
#17 Old 11th Aug 2011 at 12:09 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Wojtek
There is no excuse 'I were told to have done it'. Killing or ordering to kill innocent people is a sign that a person lacks any signs of human feelings or compassion.


I agree with you that the people who mass-killed innocent people should have gone (or should go if they're still alive) to jail, but I can't agree with you on that sentence. I can think on many situations when I understand (not justify) someone killing other person. Let's say you're told "kill this guy or I'll kill you and your wife and your family"... well, you would probably choose the random guy.

I think nobody is denying the Holocaust, I personally find it utterly disgusting when someone denies or justifies the Holocaust, there's no good way to justify massive killings. On the original topic, it is totally stupid to blame nowadays Germans for the things that happened in the past, specially because many people were not even BORN when those things happened. Germany has done a great job overcoming their past, in my opinion.
Instructor
#18 Old 11th Aug 2011 at 3:04 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Wojtek
This is unbelievable! Do you really think that people who kept murdering innocent citizens during WWII only because they didn't meet the criteria they imposed on them should get away with that?


For me, It depends on the situation, who they are, and the circumstances under which they committed the executions.

I think expending resources and putting really old ex-nazi's on trial and prison really doesn't accomplish much. As unpopular as it may be, I'd rather use the tax payers money on other things.
Instructor
#19 Old 11th Aug 2011 at 6:35 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Wojtek
They kept executing people without any reason. They were organizing '³apanki' (catchings) and shooting people. Seems that somebody was sleeping during history lessons.

Yeah,maybe on maintaining their benefits and pensions?


Not at all. I'm well aware of nazi attrocities thanks, I don't need my consciousness raised on that issue. And there is no need to be rude.

As far as maintaining benefits and pensions. If they are incarcerated, you'll likely be paying more than that anyway.
Scholar
Original Poster
#20 Old 11th Aug 2011 at 8:30 PM
"They kept executing people without any reason."

Except they DID have reasons. Were they good reasons? No. Were they right reasons? No. But they were reasons, no matter.

And, I'm gonna go breaking this down. Human memory is shit. Did that happen, soldiers laughing and gunning people down? Possibly. But I doubt it was frequent. And even so, some soldiers still may had to have kill innocents, but were still forced into it. If you're life is on the line, you may do things you would not otherwise do to preserve it. As has been said, that does not excuse the Nazis, but you cannot simply gloss over them or their atrocities, either. For true understanding of the past, even if it's just for the sake of history and knowledge, you must examine things in detail; the reasons, the psychology, the system, etc, etc.

Is that a shillelagh in your pocket, or are you just sinning against God?
 
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