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Forum Resident
Original Poster
#1 Old 1st Jun 2008 at 4:46 PM
Default The Confederate Flag
Lets test our openmindness, views toward free speach, and toward not being offensive to others...

Quote:
TAMPA — Next year, a giant Confederate flag may tower above the tree line near the junction of Interstate 75 and Interstate 4.

The Sons of Confederate Veterans wants drivers in the Tampa area to see the massive flag — 30 feet high and 50 feet long — atop a 139-foot pole, the highest the Federal Aviation Authority would allow. It would be lit at night.

(...)

Hillsborough County NAACP president Curtis Stokes heard about the plans to have the flag flying next year, he was shocked.

"I'm surprised that they would allow something like this to go on in Hillsborough County," he said.

(...)

Adams insists the flag isn't about racism or slavery. "It's about honoring our ancestors and about celebrating our heritage," he said. "It's a historical thing to us."

He hopes people who are offended by the flag will drive to the memorial and view the plaques honoring Confederate soldiers. They plan to have one dedicated to black Confederate veterans, he said.

(...)

Dawson, the Sons of Confederate Veterans' Florida commander, said he knows a giant Confederate flag flying 24 hours a day over two of the Tampa area's busiest roads will cause controversy.

"We can't do anything but explain to people what the truth is," said Dawson, of Pensacola. "If they don't want to accept that, they're closed-minded, and Jesus Christ couldn't change it."



http://www.tampabay.com/news/humani...le551722.ece?75


So, what we will end up with is one massive flag that will be flying in open view on one of the busiest highways, a flag that many associate with racism. So, here is your debate.

Should the flag be allowed? Be protected? Should it be welcomed?

Personal I have always held high respect for those who have fought for and died for their beliefs. So this in a way does tear me. Yes those who fought and died in the confederacy should be honored, but this may be pushing it. But in another respect, it is being done by a private group following the law.

Erasing One Big Astounding Mistake All-around
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Inventor
#2 Old 1st Jun 2008 at 7:08 PM
I am just as open minded as the next person and will have no problem with many icons/symbolism and childish behavior of some americans, if things wasn’t so unequal and down right bias in this country.

Placing the burden for racial reconciliation on black people, who must accept the confederate flag and its historical standing in this country in order for whites/Mr. Dawson to be willing to dialogue ("It's about honoring our ancestors and about celebrating our heritage," he said. "It's a historical thing to us." "He hopes people who are offended by the flag will drive to the memorial and view the plaques honoring Confederate soldiers. They plan to have one dedicated to black Confederate veterans, he said.")--is a grotesque inversion of historic responsibility for the problem of racism in the United States.

Perhaps when white folks/Mr. Dawson begin to show as much concern for the bigoted statements and, more to the point, murderous actions of white political leaders as they show over the statements of Louis Farrakhan and Mr. Wright, then this action by Dawson, the Sons of Confederate Veterans' Florida commander will deserve to be taken seriously. " Until then, however, folks of color will continue--and rightly, understandably so--to view this as white folks trying to dodge their personal responsibility for their share of the problem.

I view this, and with good reason, as merely using this flag to remind black folks not to divert attention from institutional discrimination, institutionalized white privilege and power, and the way in which white denial maintains a lid on social change, by creating the impression that everything is fine, and whatever isn't fine is the fault of crazy, militant black people, who follow crazy and hateful religious leaders. The more things change, the more they stay the same!

Dawson must be seeking out controversy if he live in Pensacola but feel the need to fly his flag in Tampa…maybe he needs to question his own intentions and be honest to/with himself!:taekwondo
Lab Assistant
#3 Old 1st Jun 2008 at 8:36 PM
They should be allowed to fly their flag...it just lets me know not to ever visit Hillsborough County!

I do think it's interesting that "They plan to have one dedicated to black Confederate veterans."


Why does there need to be a seperate one for the blacks?

And out of curiosity, is it far-fetched to think that flying the Confederate flag is unpatriotic? Not only do I think of overweight, flushed faced men with nooses, but I also think of a group of people who do not/did not want the states to be united.
#4 Old 1st Jun 2008 at 9:55 PM
My biggest question is why does it have to be so big? Their flag would be the biggest thing out there, and if they only wanted to show pride in their heritage, they would have a flag the same size as the others, in/near the same place as the others, in their hometown. I've been told that people want attention when they make, in this case, their flag bigger than anything else. And light it up at night. I think they're asking for trouble just by making the thing so damn big.
Theorist
#5 Old 1st Jun 2008 at 10:05 PM
The Confederate flag is not the official flag of the United States, nor of any of the 50 smaller states that compose the nation. As such, it is not protected in the same way the American flag is, nor should it be protected as much. However, as long as the law in their city/county/state do not specifically ban the waving of a Confederate flag, how can anyone legally prevent them from flying it? Not saying they should, but, if they are legally allowed to do so, until the laws change wherever they are, nobody can really stop them from doing it. As long as it is legal, it is their full right to display it, even if it is racially insensitive.

Quote:
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umm...Isn't having other people carry your medical burden exactly what national health care is?
Field Researcher
#6 Old 1st Jun 2008 at 11:11 PM
I'm all for freedom of speech, but i'm not sure how to feel about the flag. I think it shouldn't be so big. I could easily see how a lot of people will be very offended. I can't say they shouldn't have the right to put the flag up, but I hate that it stands for something that can be portrayed in such a bad light.
Lab Assistant
#7 Old 2nd Jun 2008 at 12:16 AM
The confederate flag shouldnt be waved. Its waved by skinheads and racist everywhere, to do the same and say its different is rediculus. all that it stood for from the very beginning was lazy white people saying "im keeping my slaves no matter what the president says!" Its built on racism, by people fighting for racism. Obviously i cant stop them from waving the flag, but i doubt anybody supporting this has soley non-racist intentions

"No, college is for women who don't want to marry the first idiot they meet and squeeze out his bastard, moron children." Laura Prepon from That's 70's Show
Field Researcher
#8 Old 2nd Jun 2008 at 12:43 AM
Quote: Originally posted by VeryAlliegh
The confederate flag shouldnt be waved. Its waved by skinheads and racist everywhere, to do the same and say its different is rediculus. all that it stood for from the very beginning was lazy white people saying "im keeping my slaves no matter what the president says!" Its built on racism, by people fighting for racism. Obviously i cant stop them from waving the flag, but i doubt anybody supporting this has soley non-racist intentions

I live in the South, I've lived here all my life, I'm in no part a southern hick, nor do I have a southern accent, my parents make a living higher than 20k a year and we are (all my siblings) bound for college. The confederate flag might be waved by 'skinheads and racists' but not necessarily everywhere. The whole Civil War wasn't fought for Slaves, because the slaves were dying out as it is. The south seceded for some reasons along the lines of what you said, but that doesn't mean that all their viewpoints were tainted with racist remarks. I'm sure that the people waving the flag weren't trying to send a message that no black people are welcome, because any right-wing capitalist would know that that is a big market in the south. So to falsely accuse all the people who fly the Confederate Flag as racist skinheads is completely wrong and false. People in my neighborhood fly the flag, please note, in my neighborhood, the houses cost over $700,000, so none of us are 'wife-beating skinheads with nothing but a racist agenda' in fact, we're anything but that. I live in Atlanta, one of the largest inhabited places by black people, so in no way am I racist. The flag doesn't stand for 'lazy white people' who wanted to keep their slaves to the death, the flag stands for the one time that America wasn't united, for the one time that we've had an all out Civil War, it by no means stands for 'lazy white people' who wanted to keep their slaves and indentured servants because that's completely false. Everyone knows that slavery was going to go under as it is because the slave trade was slowing down and slaves cost too much. So please, before anyone in this debate stereotypes the south, please realize that we aren't made up of 'racist white folk just trying to make a buck by exploiting them black peoples' because we aren't.. at all. If you want to meet people like that, go to Northern Louisiana, Southern Georgia, Alabama (some parts) and other states of the sort, because I refuse to have the state that I have lived in for 11 years be typed in such a way that makes us seem like ignorant deadbeats who just hate every race except for White Christians.

As for the Confederate Flag being flown, sure, do it, if anyone has a clue about it, or has lived in the south for maybe... half a year, then they would know the true intentions of flying it.

Just my 2 (valid) cents.
Field Researcher
#9 Old 2nd Jun 2008 at 12:56 AM
I live in the Tampa Bay area and public issues regarding the Confederacy are sadly all too common.

While I find the erection of such a flag to be in poor taste (especially with regards to its location, so close to the now vanished Central Ave, which used to be the "Black District" of Tampa not too many decades ago), this group is within their rights to display it according to county rules and regulations.

As the stated intent of such a "memorial" is to create controversy and awareness for their Sons of Confederate Veterans organization, they will certainly achieve their goals.

Ah, the Tampa Bay Area: Known for Rhonda Storms, KKK marches, and massive confederate flags... I, for one, hang my head with shame.

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Inventor
#10 Old 2nd Jun 2008 at 1:04 AM
Hey Blake, maybe it would help others/me to understand if you would elaborate on the real meaning/true intention of flying that flag.

CisteCaise, I am in the same area, keep your head up!
Top Secret Researcher
#11 Old 2nd Jun 2008 at 1:07 AM
Blake,

While I understand why you're defensive, it's hard to see things objectively if you've lived in Georgia your whole life. If you (not you, but anyone) fly the Confederate flag, then you're not just displaying your heritage. You may not be racist, but at the very least you're completely and totally insensitive to others. If my father (my grandfather, I guess, is more likely) had fought for the Nazis in WWII, I might be proud of his personal bravery, but I wouldn't fly a flag that said, "I wish Hitler had succeeded in wiping out all the Jews." Because if you're flying the Confederate flag, you're saying, "I wish the South had won the Civil War, and I wish black people were enslaved." The fact is, even if you didn't own slaves yourself, if you supported the South's side in the Civil War, you supported slavery. There were other issues, certainly, but slavery went along with the Confederacy. Period, end of story. It's just like if you vote for John McCain: you're voting for a continuation of the war in Iraq, even if you consider yourself a pacifist.

Oh, and by the way, I've lived in South Carolina for more than half a year, and I still have no sympathy for the south on this issue. None.

Anyway, to answer the question, obviously I don't think the Confederate flag should be flown. Do I think it should be banned? No, because I believe in freedom of expression. It's a tough issue. *sigh*

#12 Old 2nd Jun 2008 at 1:14 AM
I say let them wave it as long as the motive stays at historical importance and it'd be a good idea to also get an American flag to further point they're trying to make.

I can see the point of having on dedicated to the black Confederate soldiers. A lot of people forget that there were blacks fighting for the South. They're overshadowed by the larger idea that South was trying to make. I mean, when I learned about the Civil War back in middle school, there was no mention about any blacks in the Confederate Army. They didn't even imply it.
Field Researcher
#13 Old 2nd Jun 2008 at 1:15 AM
Quote: Originally posted by urisStar
Hey Blake, maybe it would help others/me to understand if you would elaborate on the real meaning/true intention of flying that flag.


Of course, I admit, it has some racist intentions, but they're extremely minute.. like extremely minute. People people, the whole Civil War wasn't fought over slaves! People usually associate slaves --> Civil War because of the Emancipation Proclamation. The southern people had much different views than the North, and the schism started back in the Revolutionary War with the Loyalists and the uh.. I forgot the name of the others D: Liberalists? either way, Savannah was a major port for Loyalists, or people who loved and were loyal to the British. And so was most of the South, still trading with the British with their cotton and other exports, however the Northern Colonies weren't having such luck because they didn't have such useful exports. And that's where the divide, very small at the time, started. Anyways, I think that the flag represents all of the lives lost on the Confederate side. I've technically lived in the south all my life, if we go by the Mason Dixon Line, I don't swing the usual southern way in Politics (I'm a Democrat :p), but I still feel that the flag holds some southern culture and heritage to this region. Either way, the flag, to me, represents a memorial to the Confederate lives lost in the war. The economic rape that occurred during and after the war (carpetbaggers anyone?) and the carnage that Sherman brought upon Atlanta in his March to the Sea. The sheer thought of having a disconnected America alone is crazy, don't get me wrong, however, the men fighting for it fought for what was right to them, and there's something great in that. The South, in some parts, might be racially divided, but most countries are, like it or not (African Quarter in Paris?, Mexican Neighborhoods in L.A., Chinatown?). I don't see the flag in a harsh light, and I don't think it makes me a no-class white trash southern hick bent on lynching all black people if I don't dislike it.


Either way, my two cents has been displayed, enough of this debate for me. Mangle/change/obliterate/re-but my posts as you wish. :p
Top Secret Researcher
#14 Old 2nd Jun 2008 at 1:21 AM
Blake, did you read my post?

My feelings about the Confederate flag don't stem from what it means to you, or what it means to a white trash hick who flies it from his trailer. It's offensive to black people and to others because it carries a message of racism and slavery, whatever else it carries. I don't like to justify the horrors of Reconstruction or Sherman's march, but just tell me that the Confederate Army fought fairly and honestly at all times, and that their motives were pure. Hm? It was war.

If you're flying the Confederate flag, you might feel like you're just honoring fallen Confederate soldiers, but you're also sending a message that you wish the Civil War had turned out differently, you wish there was slavery, you wish the states were not united. Which you don't, so I think you should disagree with the flying of that flag.

Instructor
#15 Old 2nd Jun 2008 at 1:31 AM
The Emancipation Proclamation was not to free slaves. It was a cunning political move by Lincoln to rile the South into screwing up. Which worked beautifully.

I live in Louisiana. I've lived in the South most of my life, although I was born in the 'North' (Midwest). To my friends, the Confederate flag is about history, not racism. I had a friend who wore a Confederate flag pendant around her neck all through high school. We had a friend who was black, who said when our friend was targeted as a racist, 'That's NOT about racism. It's about HISTORY.' She's right. I'm not racist, but I can see flying the flag in memoriam of the fallen (of which there were many) that fought in the Civil War. It's not even 'The War of Northern Aggression' anymore.

The Northern states can fly a US flag in memoriam of their fallen. Why can't the South have the same courtesy?

By the way, my family members were very likely Indiana abolitionists, Michigan fur trappers, or were indifferent to slavery.

You can keep your knight in shining armor. I'll take my country boy in turn-out gear!
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Top Secret Researcher
#16 Old 2nd Jun 2008 at 1:34 AM
But to me, anyway, it doesn't matter what it means to the person wearing the pendant. What matters is what it means to other people. Other people who probably wouldn't appreciate the message is puts across.

And you're right about the Emancipation Proclamation. It didn't even free the slaves in the five (I think?) slave states that fought for the Union.

Inventor
#17 Old 2nd Jun 2008 at 1:43 AM
Blake, I do not share the same history as African-Americans as my heritage is 100% Caribbean, but that doesn’t stop others from lumping me in, so I gladly identify.

I think your history/memory is a little off and you are coming from the other side of the fence. There are two America and there are two sides to the historical memory. There was also the removal from history of all things black.

I think people remember/want to remember only what they want to remember but/and at the same time white wash and dress up the ugly. They can‘t/don‘t seem to care about the tale of the two America because it doesnt fit into their Great American's story, like they would want it to look. :D
#18 Old 2nd Jun 2008 at 3:16 AM
Unfortunately, for whatever other reasons the Civil War was fought, in American public schools, the story most often told was that the Civil War was fought for slavery. Unfortunately, whatever else the Confederate flag may mean to someone in the south, many others won't see it that way. When putting something like this on display, I think it's -always-, no matter what's being put on display, extremely important to think of the way the object will be perceived by others.

If the intent of having the Confederate flag was to commemorate and remember those lost in the war, why not just have a normal sized flag? Why does it have to be lit up at night? Why not just put it outside the Confederate museum, where you can direct people inside and get them to understand -why- this flag is being raisded, that, if what some of the southerners are saying is true, the flag isn't about racism and that the civil war wasn't fought only to end slavery? It may take some time, but people may get used to this idea more. I don't have a problem with celebrating one's history, but this seems just too flashy for me. It makes me skeptical of the reasons given for raising the flag.

Alas, you do have freedom of speech, but you also have the freedom to take the consequenses that come with it.
Lab Assistant
#19 Old 2nd Jun 2008 at 3:40 AM
Quote: Originally posted by Blake
I live in Atlanta, one of the largest inhabited places by black people, so in no way am I racist.


Isn't Atlanta also where the KKK originated? Stone Mountain?
#20 Old 2nd Jun 2008 at 3:49 AM
I don't think the confederate flag should be sanctioned by the government. But as far as I'm concerned, private parties can fly it all they want. As long as the flag itself is on private property and being paid for privately.

I wouldn't go so far to say that I find the confederate flag offensive. But I tend to associate it with ignorant, backwoods idiots.
#21 Old 2nd Jun 2008 at 4:09 AM
Awww, I used to love Stone Mountain when I was a kid. When we went to family reunions, the family usually (always) went to Stone Mountain for the light show and fireworks.

Uumm...back on topic? I think they want controversy.
Lab Assistant
#22 Old 2nd Jun 2008 at 4:13 AM
Quote: Originally posted by Blake
As for the Confederate Flag being flown, sure, do it, if anyone has a clue about it, or has lived in the south for maybe... half a year, then they would know the true intentions of flying it.

Just my 2 (valid) cents.


Ive lived in the south all my life (Texas, dont get any further south than that) It doesnt change anything about my opinion. I think dasie said it best.

"No, college is for women who don't want to marry the first idiot they meet and squeeze out his bastard, moron children." Laura Prepon from That's 70's Show
Test Subject
#23 Old 2nd Jun 2008 at 4:49 AM
Quote: Originally posted by chelleypie
The Northern states can fly a US flag in memoriam of their fallen. Why can't the South have the same courtesy?.


Because it's the United States? It's not two separate entities and the rules for flying flags are made by the United States government? Sure it's a flag, but for centuries a lot of people have put great faith into their flags. The United States are comprised of the many states, but they are all united under the one flag, which gives the American ensign it's powerful meaning.

I've been told by people that the "meaning" of the Confederate flag is all about freedom; the freedom to make the choice to rebel against the government or the authorities. The south was fighting for the right to make decisions on their own and not be governed by the single American government. I sort of agree with this. A state should be left to make its own decisions as long as it doesn't take it as far as, say, Maine has (stupid commie state). I in no way agree with slavery.

A lot of people, and I don't blame them, associate the Confederate flag with slavery. They may get offended by the colors waving in the breeze. But it all comes down to the meaning and how much stock a person takes in the flag. People burn the American flag to get attention and for the shock value; there wouldn't be shock value to this unless people put meaning in the red, white, and blue.

This being the case, if a person flies the Confederate flag to show how much a rebel they are, or how much they believe in freedom, I think they are in the wrong. There are many other symbols they could use that don't offend the sensitivities of the masses. Especially when it's for shock value, which in this case (flying a huge flag so people driving down the road) I believe it is.
Forum Resident
Original Poster
#24 Old 2nd Jun 2008 at 6:43 AM
Quote: Originally posted by voodookatie
This being the case, if a person flies the Confederate flag to show how much a rebel they are, or how much they believe in freedom, I think they are in the wrong. There are many other symbols they could use that don't offend the sensitivities of the masses. Especially when it's for shock value, which in this case (flying a huge flag so people driving down the road) I believe it is.

I need to ask this, what is your opinion on flag burning? Many feel that is an act to show how much they believe in expressing their freedoms, and rebel against society as a whole. Even that act can and does inflame and offend others. If you have no problem with burning the flag, but think flying the Navy Jack is offensive, then isn't that, in a sense, hypocritical?

Erasing One Big Astounding Mistake All-around
Test Subject
#25 Old 2nd Jun 2008 at 7:14 AM
Personally, I don't like flag burning. I believe that it is desecrating an amazing national symbol. But there's nothing I can do about it if someone wants to burn the flag; it's called freedom of speech.

Just like I personally can't stop someone from flying a confederate flag if they so wish. I just stated in my last post that I believed that they were doing so for shock value. I also stated what I thought the Confederate flag meant to others (not just the slavery stance, because in high school I was taught that the Civil War meant more than just freeing the slaves, although slavery did play a major role).

Personally, I could care less what a person does as long as it does not impede me in any way. They can wave whatever flag they want to (or burn it), as long as it does not physically threaten me at all. Heck, they can even shout whatever slurs they can dredge up as long as they don't touch me. It takes a whole heck of a lot to offend me.

Quote:
The county has wrestled with sensitive Confederate issues in the past. In 1994, the Confederate flag was removed from the county seal. Last year, county commissioners recognized Confederate commander Robert E. Lee on the same day they honored a black civic leader. Commissioners later apologized and haven't since recognized Lee.


That part from the article right there kind of lets on that the whole thing is just to make people upset. Why that county and not another one? Or are they trying to put up flags all along Florida's interstates?
 
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