Hi there! You are currently browsing as a guest. Why not create an account? Then you get less ads, can thank creators, post feedback, keep a list of your favourites, and more!
Lab Assistant
Original Poster
#1 Old 21st Nov 2007 at 11:40 AM
His Dark Materials - Deus Ex Machina?
I'm exactly halfway through HDM, exactly halfway through Subtle Knife in fact, and I'm starting to think that I don't understand why these books are so revered, having read the other great series' they're usually compared to (LOTR, Chronicles of Narnia) I'm not seeing what all the fuss is about.
Seems to me they're suffering a chronic case of Deus Ex Machina (a rather weak plot tool where a character is saved from a dire and inescapable situation, or provided with knowledge by...TaDa! God!)
Vital information about Daemons and the central characters is only revealed as and when is needed for convenience. The whole function of the Alethiometer and Subtle Knife, the presence of Spectres, is again, just too convenient, and seems only to allow the characters to progress through the story unhindered.
I know the whole point of these isn't so much the flow of action, but instead the underlying message, but that's still no excuse for (what is in my opinion) lazy storywriting.

Agree/Disagree?
Advertisement
world renowned whogivesafuckologist
retired moderator
#2 Old 21st Nov 2007 at 12:04 PM
It's been a long time since I read them but I'm -really- looking forward to The Golden Compass coming out in movie form. I really enjoyed them all when I was younger... the plot may not have the most depth to it but they're a really enjoyable read - unlike LotR which I've never been able to make it past Bilbo's birthday party before falling asleep. Mainly what I got from it was a very interesting setting and world that's more fantasy victoriana steampunk, very different from most fantasy that's more dragons and magic about it... I didn't like the second two as much as the first, but I still think they're wonderful.

my simblr (sometimes nsfw)

“Dude, suckin’ at something is the first step to being sorta good at something.”
Panquecas, panquecas e mais panquecas.
Lab Assistant
Original Poster
#3 Old 21st Nov 2007 at 1:18 PM
Yeah, I'm reading them becase I heard about the movie being made, I like to have read the book version before I see movies like that. I did it with LOTR too.
You should give them another go, they're very exciting once you get into the action. I will admit to skipping past a few paragraphs that go on and on describing scenery though.
I'm also very excited to see the style of Golden Compass, the book doesn't go into too much visual detail but the ads and pics I've seen from the movie look great
Lab Assistant
#4 Old 21st Nov 2007 at 10:25 PM
Carry on reading. My parrents forced me through the first book and i hated it, but i carried on. By the time i put down the final book, i thought it was one of the best books i had ever read. I love the fantasy in it and the different worlds and the surprise element at the end which i won't mention. I know there's meant to be a much deeper element to it, but i was totaly oblivious to it but still enjoyed the books massively.

The LOTR books were horribly. Great, but they had TONNES of detail in them. I gave up just after the battle of helms deep years ago. The chapter 'The Council of Elrond' almost made me suicidal and my mum says the start of ROTK is no better but they are still great books.
Scholar
#5 Old 18th Jan 2008 at 5:14 PM
So I'm almost at the end of The Golden Compass and I gotta tell ya.... I can't put it down! It's just really different from everything else I've read. (LOTR can be a bit.... descriptive...lol) I love Lyra. I love the mystery of 'Dust' and other worlds existing, and battle to stifle all of this information... the daemons, the fact that 'something' happens to you at puberty and you're never the same. It just feels very close to me. I can't wait to get on to the rest! I don't feel it's lazy story writing at all (of course I'm not as far along as you). I do think it feels like this was an easy story to tell cause it's so rich and the well he's getting it from is so deep. Right now I'm thrilled with the possibilities and the directions this could go in.
Test Subject
#6 Old 2nd Feb 2008 at 4:31 AM
I've never read the books but saw the movie...anyways, I think Deus Ex Machina is an uneffective tool in literature. To me, It weakens the story.

The only way I think it was effective was in Ancient Greece, where it was invented. The stories got so complicated that was the only way out.
Test Subject
#7 Old 3rd Feb 2008 at 12:01 AM
I have only read the first book, Northern Lights (That is the English title). I thought it was ok but not amazing.

~Love is blind, i know this because you cant see me!~
Scholar
#8 Old 7th Mar 2008 at 5:39 PM
Then you need to read the others because i thought it was fantastic. The story shifts so much in the next two books. I fear seeing the movie cause I'm worried they'd ruin it.... I'm curious to see if they dare do the other books.
Scholar
#9 Old 7th Mar 2008 at 6:15 PM
I thought there was enough foreshadowing for many of the events described as "Deus Ex Machina," which puts them out of the category for me. Also, I don't think that elements of the setting (such as the spectres or the alethiometer) can reasonably be called DEM devices since they are being used to build the story rather than hastily resolve it.


I thought the first book was phenomenal, and I loved the ending of it. The mysticism of daemons and Lyra's world was so original and evocative. However, I felt somewhat betrayed by the 2nd book because of the interaction between Lyra and Will. Not only does Lyra become secondary in prominence, she also becomes submissive to Will.


I haven't read Narnia, but I don't think that these books can be compared to the genre that LOTR occupies considering these are more like children/teenagers' books. Harry Potter would be better as comparison.


Zaggy: the movie ruined the first book. It felt like they tried to cram 3 movies into 1, and they didn't even fit the end of the book into the movie.
Scholar
#10 Old 19th Mar 2008 at 3:02 PM
Well I guess I don't want to see the movie lol. I don't think she becomes submissive to Will.... they love each other and need each other to finish their task. Neither of them could do it alone. Together they finish what Lyra set out to do. Will was a player Lyra didn't know she needed (maybe more than she needs Pan) and vice versa.
Field Researcher
#11 Old 1st Apr 2008 at 4:17 AM
I actually saw the movie first(Nicole Kidman looked amazing with that golden dress,golden hair, and golden monkey,eventought the monkey is hideous),but isn't Mrs Coulter supposed to be dark haired?

And Billy wasn't supposed to be the kid that got 'cut',the boy who played Billy is so cute

And after I read the book,well,I'm curious at how they're going to make the 2nd movie,since the 2nd book started with Will's misadventure,I got the feeling that the 2nd movie will have Lyra as main character

The 2nd and 3rd book kinda sucked cause Lyra is nothing but Will's companion, even the Alethiometer is somehow became more useless in those books

And the 'snake'(forgot her name)'s adventure was only to travel to mulefa's world,the end,not very exciting at all

I'm also kinda disgusted and amused at how at the end of 3rd book Lyra and Will kisses so much,they're just 12 years old

The ending wasn't that great,Lyra probably lived her life like a nun, and Will probably moved on with his life

I don't even like Pantalaimon's true form,a meerkat like creature?

The characters from 1st book has really weak plot and going ons in the later books,kinda boring...

And I don't think Daniel Craig and Nicole Kidman has much works in the upcoming HDM movies,since their characters has not much role to play

HDM is so-so to me(read it once and has no will to read it again)

I wonder if there are any fanatic Christian picketing book stores for selling this book,since its kinda provocative(God was just an angel that died cause he's so old?)

Sorry, for blabbering, its just that this book has too many minus points(can't remember most),eventhought it has interesting story line

Oh and the part where they're going to be mauled by savage kids bugged me,I can't believe if that kind of thing could happen in the real world(Amazon kids maybe?)
Lab Assistant
#12 Old 1st Apr 2008 at 4:54 AM
Okay... this is probably one of my favorite books, when I was younger I wanted to change my name to Lyra. It also sparked my love for Oxford and an interest in travel. When I read it again when I was older, I noticed a lot more than I did the first time. HDM is quite thought-provoking, what with dealing with god and daemons. I have also wondered what we be the sort of animal that embodies my spirit.

I also saw the movie, and thought it was great. It also got so many people I know interested in the book as well. I thought that the special effects were great (especially the daemons and Iorek) and the casting was pretty good.

Quote: Originally posted by Brad2006
Oh and the part where they're going to be mauled by savage kids bugged me,I can't believe if that kind of thing could happen in the real world(Amazon kids maybe?)


Have you ever read Lord of the Flies? Attacks by savage kids seems to be what most English teachers think is possible :P
Field Researcher
#13 Old 2nd Apr 2008 at 3:27 AM
Quote: Originally posted by emde40
Have you ever read Lord of the Flies? Attacks by savage kids seems to be what most English teachers think is possible :P


I don't get that...

But yeah,the visual effects are great,the description of daemon dying in the book wasn't as beautiful as the one in the movie

and Alethiometer looked really classy(with beautiful 'seeing' animation)
Lab Assistant
#14 Old 3rd Apr 2008 at 3:12 AM
Quote: Originally posted by Brad2006
I don't get that...


What I am trying to say is that often, to be considered great literature, something improbable or disgusting happens. Thus is the case with Lord of the Flies. Many English teacher consider it one of the best works around and it contains attacks by savage children. Sorry if I am hard to understand... I have been living with non-English speakers, so it makes my English worse
#15 Old 12th Apr 2008 at 7:39 PM
I know this thread is getting a little old, but I felt the need to drop in.

I got to the point in the first book where Mrs. Coulter was her mother and her uncle was really her father, and I literally threw the book down in disgust. I had to force myself to finish reading it (because I vowed to never start a book that I wasn't going to finish). I don't know if I intend to finish reading the series, but that was just total and utter crap. I couldn't even watch the movie.
Scholar
#16 Old 12th Apr 2008 at 8:48 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Brad2006

I wonder if there are any fanatic Christian picketing book stores for selling this book,since its kinda provocative(God was just an angel that died cause he's so old?)


An Angel claimed he was God. I think you might want to read it again. It seems like you've missed things.... I might read it again... lol The fact that Mrs. Coulter and Lord Asriel were her parents is really really really a minor part of the story. For me it was about questioning what people tell you and not believing in things that don't feel true to you. I'm kinda surprised that some people thought Lyra was secondary to Will. I didn't get that at all. I thought they were both equals. They needed each other to complete their task. To work together as a unit. As man and woman. Ying and Yang. The first book was all about Lyra so we knew a whole lot about her. Will is being introduced in the second one so of course it's going to be a little more about him. I don't know I guess a lot of the themes in it hit home for me so it was kinda more than just a story for me... more like a discussion of ideas.

Also I don't think the fact that there are daemons has anything to do with what are commonly referred to as demons. Totally different thing. Daemons are like your soul you can talk to in the form of an animal. I think he named them Daemons so it would evoke that response but it's more about your desires and fears... the angel and devil on your shoulder if you will. That voice in your head that helps you decide what action to take. I guess if you're super religious that would be referred to as a demon.

(Of course none of this is researched and purely my opinion not conveyed very well)

Darkest you have to finish reading That's only 1\3 of the story! Of course you're disappointed :D
#17 Old 12th Apr 2008 at 10:50 PM
I guess (for once) I was reading the novel as a writer, and not as a reader. Hearing other people talking about it, it sounds really interesting, and that's the reason that I wanted to read the books in the first place. But when I got to that part, I just felt...it was way to cliche for me.

I've always been taught that allegory must work on both levels: it must be a good book even if the reader has no idea of the "secret agenda" you've got going on, and it must also work as a secret agenda. For me, still having only read the first book, it only works on the second level: the secret agenda. It didn't tell me why I should care about the daemons or why dust is important (not really until the latter half of the book). The characters have all these really strong emotions, but I don't think they came across well. Well, at least they didn't come to me.
Back to top