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Field Researcher
Original Poster
#1 Old 12th Jun 2009 at 8:43 PM
Default Abortion Right or Wrong, part II
This is just a continuation of a discussion that had gone quite off topic in another thread, but of a topic that I could find no recent threads anymore. Is abortion right or wrong? Should it be banned?

Here is the discussion thus far:

Quote: Originally posted by Xunixeon
Republicans can destroy rainforests and ban abortion while the democrats will force everyone to have two children and have no cars.


Off topic: You know, this is at least the second thread that you've brought up banning abortion as a negative consequence or course of action. You also used it in that context in the thread about young girls dressing suggestively. I know this isn't relevant to the thread, but I'm curious as to why you seem to see this as a bad thing. I for one, would love for that to happen.

Quote: Originally posted by Splurgy
On the whole, more racist wackos are right wing. It's just a fact of life.

Why would you ban abortion? That's ridiculous. People would still have abortions, but a lot of them would die from poor technique and secondary infections.


Quote: Originally posted by WannabeSith
Because I'm of the school of thought that believes abortion to be murder. Why on earth would I want such a thing condoned? I know not everyone shares my views and that some would label me as extreme for it, but I believe all of those unborn children have as much a right to life as you and I do. Therefore, it does not make sense to me to have laws in place that make such a reprehensible thing easier. If the poor technique and secondary infections happen to those who would get illegal abortions (I am of course referring to the hypothetical scenario in which abortion might have been banned.) then the women/girls who were so cowardly that they couldn't face the consequences of their actions... well, I think they'd be getting what's coming to them. It would suck, yes, but could've been avoided by facing up to what they'd done (had unprotected sex) and dealing with it responsibly, for example giving the child up for adoption or sucking it up and raising the child themselves. If you decide you're adult enough to indulge in the act that can result in making a child, you're grown up enough to stop acting like a spoiled child and behave like an adult you like to think you are.


Quote: Originally posted by Splurgy
So...instead of letting an unborn foetus die, you're condoning letting a full grown woman die?


To Splurgy's last question, I answer yes. the way I see it, the life of the mother is not intrinsically worth more or less than the life of the unborn child. To me the issue is a matter of comparable innocence. Obviously, the unborn baby has not had the chance yet to commit any wrongs, so he/she cannot have wronged their mother. On top of that, the child also has not yet even had the chance to make any simple mistakes, and the situation of the pregnancy itself is not the fault of the baby. The parents are the ones that had sex, after all, not the kid.

So if the child has not had the ability to commit any wrongs or even make any mistakes, unlike the mother's decision to have unprotected sex, I do not think they should be murdered for the mistakes of another. That would be the height of injustice.

As for the possibility of the mother dying, I might remind you that the majority of abortions are not about decisions of life and death, but rather the emotional mindset and desires of the reluctantly pregnant women involved. If it did come down to life and death for the mother though, for the sake of saving the child, I do however favor the child simply because they are completely innocent. When I make mistakes, I expect to be held accountable for them, even if the consequences are dire. This is also a value I hold others to. I don't approve of aiding anyone in avoiding the results of their poor choices simply so they can keep on blithely making the same mistakes or behaving the same bad way that got them into trouble in the first place.

I don't hate anyone that's gotten an abortion, nor do I think that they're evil. I just do not condone the act and believe that it should not be legally sanctioned.

Eagerly awaiting Silent Hill: Shattered Memories.
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Lab Assistant
#2 Old 12th Jun 2009 at 8:50 PM
Would you condone:
-The abortion of a foetus whose birth would cause the death of the mother (but the baby would survive)
- The abortion of a severely deformed (as in encephalitic) foetus which wouldn't be able to survive outside the womb for more than a couple of months
- The abortion of a foetus that's the result of rape
Field Researcher
Original Poster
#3 Old 12th Jun 2009 at 9:04 PM
I would condone none of those. As I said, the child is not the one at fault. If I might quote a well-known movie:

"Life is pain, Highness. Anyone who says differently is selling something."

The fact is, sometimes life is rough, even to the point of death. We all die sometime. Why punish someone else for the bad happening to you when it isn't their fault?

The same goes for a pregnancy that resulted from a rape. I know a lot of people would make exceptions for this, but I just can't. That would be punishing the child for the sins of the father. Again, how is that just? Even aside from that, there are so many people out there dying to have children of their own that cannot. Two years ago, I had to call the police on a friend of mine because she was trying to attempt suicide because she could not conceive a child no matter what she tried. She desperately wanted a child to love and call her own, yet there are women out there who would destroy the innocent children growing in their wombs. Honestly, why couldn't the mothers of rape children give the babies to these families who would love them so? It isn't as if they'd ever have to see the child again.

Eagerly awaiting Silent Hill: Shattered Memories.
Lab Assistant
#4 Old 12th Jun 2009 at 10:37 PM
Can you imagin the emotional trauma of having to carry around the memory of being raped for 9 months. Just as the child is not at fault neither are the mothers.

And as for so many people wanting children. What about all the children currently in care? You show me a care system not overflowing with children needing to be loved and i will acept your argument.

Although now you are seeing everyting very black and white i would like to see how your opinion would differ if someone very close to you were raped and then forced by the state to carry round this constant reminder. I dont think anyone can say i will NEVER condone this or i will always AGREE with that. Which is how you are coming across. No one person never truly knows untill they are in that situation.

My name is Jill. But i am not a bean. Not a baked bean, not a lima bean not even a jelly bean . . . . . . . . Ok maybe a jelly bean.
Field Researcher
Original Poster
#5 Old 12th Jun 2009 at 11:14 PM
As for the emotional trauma, I've heard that argument before. I don't stick my head in the sand like an ostrich. But the way I understand it, you're saying that a rape victim would be justified in killing a baby when the whole problem is the fault of the father. I still fail to see how that is just.

By the way, though she never got pregnant from it, I have a close relative who was a victim of repeated rape at the hands of one of her ex-husband's friends. You make it sound as though I am cold-hearted and ignorant of the effects of this kind of thing, but that is simply not true. While I would not condone the death of the child, I would do everything in my power to care for anyone I met that had been raped. Anyone. Cook their meals, pay for therapy to the best of my ability, help around the house, be a shoulder to cry on, etc. There are other answers than simply having the child killed. Is it really so impossible to love both the mother and the child in such a situation?

As for never truly knowing unless I'm ever in that situation myself, I don't have to eat mouse droppings to know that it's a bad idea.

Eagerly awaiting Silent Hill: Shattered Memories.
Lab Assistant
#6 Old 12th Jun 2009 at 11:24 PM
Oddly enough, the pro-choicers still refuse to contemplate the possibility that the victim of this "choice" maybe wanted to live a full and rewarding life. But, meh, it's just a clump of cells... better to kill it before it knows what hit it, right?

The Barimen Legacy (complete) - https://zoxell.wordpress.com/chapters/
The Stacpoole Legacy (gen 1) - https://zoxell.wordpress.com/the-stacpoole-legacy/
Field Researcher
Original Poster
#7 Old 12th Jun 2009 at 11:31 PM
Ah, but the concept of "Justice" is not politically correct. What the 'clump of cells' would want doesn't appear to matter. Neither does perseverance in the face of hardship. The easy way out is what is glorified in this culture, and not just when it comes to unplanned pregnancies. Personal inconvenience and hurt feelings are apparently more important than right or wrong.

BTW, love the quote in your sig, Zoxell.

Eagerly awaiting Silent Hill: Shattered Memories.
Lab Assistant
#8 Old 12th Jun 2009 at 11:39 PM
Im sorry if you think iv made it come across this way. But in the pervious posts you have shown empathy to no one but the unborn babies. Im not says that is true. But this is how you have made yourself come across, not me. I just commented on it. Anyway i do not wish to verbally abuse each other so i will leave it at that.

I am pro choice. And although i strongly beleive in anyones right to have an abortion what ever the reason, i am not black and white about it. What i beleive now might change completly if i was in that situation, i just dont know.

As for the mouse droppings comment i dont see what you are trying to prove by this. That is a physical not an emotional decision. For example i no it would not be a good idea to put my foot in a bear trap, but on the other hand would i be able to kill someone who i knew was going to kill me? I dont know, because this is an emotional decision.And emotions are never stable and unchanging.

And as for the whole killing a baby thing. I dont believe a baby is a baby until it is born. And so for me the rights of the mother would always come before the rights of a fetus.

Im very sorry for your relative and i hope she is in better circumstances now. But i still think that if someone close to you would have got pregnent because of rape you would have a change of heart or at least see the gray between the black and white. Im just saying no one can truly ever know.

And i agree that abortions are not the only answer, shouldnt be the first port of call or be used as contraception but sometimes it is the lesser of the evils (although i am not expecting you to agree with this, nor am i trying to change your mind)

My name is Jill. But i am not a bean. Not a baked bean, not a lima bean not even a jelly bean . . . . . . . . Ok maybe a jelly bean.
Field Researcher
Original Poster
#9 Old 12th Jun 2009 at 11:57 PM
What I was trying to get across with the mouse droppings comment was that I don't have to try or even be tempted to have an abortion (which I was at one point) to know that it is a bad idea.

All this really stems from the belief as to whether or not an unborn child is actually a baby. I know that plenty of others disagree with me. I'm okay with that. I just don't believe right and wrong are negotiable, no matter how much suffering is going on in someone's life.

And thanks, jillbean. My relative is doing better. Her situation is still not ideal, but she is at least getting to heal from that part of her past.

And I know it sounds kind of screwball, but I've actually given a lot of thought to what I'd do if someone I loved got pregnant that way. I would beg to raise the baby myself or find it a home. Like I said, I know it sounds screwball, and I can't force anyone to do things my way, but the idea is to try and love both victims.

Yuck... now I think I'm starting to sound mushy, but there it is. I believe truth, right and wrong, are not relative, and that right should override emotions. Those that let their emotions lead them around by the nose only end up getting screwed. Over-reliance on emotions only leads to more suffering in my opinion, though I realize that there are those who differ.

Eagerly awaiting Silent Hill: Shattered Memories.
Lab Assistant
#10 Old 13th Jun 2009 at 12:17 AM
Its so hard when two people have completly differnt strong opinions. Emotions get high, and nobody gets their point across well.

As for Zoxell's comment. It seams like you have come in here to stir up hate. You have not put your opinions across well and have been a bit childish to be honest.

You make it sound like anyone who has an abortion does so with ease. Even as a pro choicer i will be the first to admit its not always the right thing to do. But the women who have these abortion do not do so easily. And its not somthing thats done with out thought for both the mothers and fetus's wellbeing. I would suggest you actually came in here with somthing to debate about instead of throwing a hissy fit, and i will be more than happy to discus with you. But to be honest i think you have let the pro lifers down. Anyway back to the subject at hand.

Although a slightly weird thought to have it actually comforts me more than anything else. In the fact that you have thought out the circumstances and repercusions rather than just said i belive this and thats it. Every one has their right to an opinion, but i do belive you should have some thought behind it. And this is obviuosly the case here. Although i dont agree and dont think i ever would i can respect that.

AS for not relying on your emotions i think you are doing that as well. Its just emotionaly you couldnt bear the thought of a fetus being "killed" because you belive its a baby, just as emotionaly i wouldnt want someone to go through that because i do not see the fetus as a baby. Not may things is this world arnt led by emotions even if we cant see it at first.

My name is Jill. But i am not a bean. Not a baked bean, not a lima bean not even a jelly bean . . . . . . . . Ok maybe a jelly bean.
Lab Assistant
#11 Old 13th Jun 2009 at 12:19 AM
Okay, really. Let's say you find out you're pregnant. You're dirt poor, someone forced you to do it, and you really can't handle a kid, nor would the baby have a good life. Wouldn't you want it to have the best future possible for your child? Sometimes, that means no future at all in my opinion. I don't think it's murder. I'd rather have the parent just deal with it, but really, in certain cases, go ahead and get an abortion, I won't stop you.
Field Researcher
Original Poster
#12 Old 13th Jun 2009 at 1:01 AM
It's nice to get some of this cleared up, Jillbean, lol. And I'm not saying I don't feel anything about the matter, or that I wouldn't feel anything for the hypothetical baby in question, just that I don't think that emotions (mine or anyone else's) should be the deciding factor. If any kind of emotion is leading me in this, I would venture to say that it isn't even my feelings for the unborn children so much as my personal passion for what I believe is right or wrong. But I do like to think I'm mature enough to stand by my convictions even when my emotions might say something else, you know what I mean? I understand and respect that you have different values- that's the sort of thing that makes debate threads like this vibrant and thought-provoking. Only listening to opinions which mirror one's own stagnates the mind more effectively than anything else I know.

My answer to willwrightfan is this: dirt poor and forced to be pregnant, I think the best possible future is a life with adoption. And what I think many of us forgets is that a good life does not necessarily equate with an easy one.

Eagerly awaiting Silent Hill: Shattered Memories.
Lab Assistant
#13 Old 13th Jun 2009 at 1:23 AM
Just because i think we are being to nice to each to each other i thought i would stir it up a bit ( i joke - no hatred was inculded in the making of this post, lol)

Definition of passion - A powerful emotion, such as love, joy, hatred, or anger.

I personally feel anything but science etc is based of emotion such as religion and polictics.As i said before many things are led by emotion even if we do not see it. Anything you feel is an emotion. Strong emotions leed to passion. So both sides of the argument are led by emotion.

On a side note im liking this debate, its got a differnt twist to the its wrong, no its not, yes it is debate.

My name is Jill. But i am not a bean. Not a baked bean, not a lima bean not even a jelly bean . . . . . . . . Ok maybe a jelly bean.
Mad Poster
#14 Old 13th Jun 2009 at 1:46 AM
Joxell, the "victim of this choice" doesn't want to live a happy and fulfilling life because it has no desires at this point in its development. I think that dwelling on what would have or what could have been is fallacy; life is short, and we don't have that luxury. It's just as easy to assume that the same fetus has the potential to grow up and commit suicide, but no one cries wolf about that outcome.

I think that the answer to the abortion debacle would be astonishingly clear if religion and sentimentality were removed from the equation. It's not about what's right and wrong (government should so rarely be that way); it's about what women have the right to do, and denying one's right to control one's own body can only lead to the futures that George Orwell and Ayn Rand once envisioned. People say that the woman should take responsibility for her mistake, but not everyone has the potential to become a stellar parent, and allowing a child to grow up unwanted is terrible. Parenthood should not be punishment, and a child should not be used to teach an incompetent person to be a proper parent.

Abortion is not the ideal scenario, that much is true, but it's a gritty reality and a right nonetheless. It's not heartless, either; pro-lifers clearly lack the emotional compass to understand that, for most women, it is not a decision made lightly and not one without emotional repercussions. I think it's admirable, in a strange way; like I said, it's not the ideal scenario, but it shows that the woman has a level of self awareness great enough to accurately perceive her situation and a level of maturity great enough not to bring a child into it. Adoption is a nice idea, but the amount of children not adopted compared to the amount of children who are adopted is staggering. If the woman has enough faith to believe that her child will be adopted, then by all means she should pusue adoption, but realism dictates otherwise. I would rather see my child aborted than shuffled between foster homes and orphanages.

So often I say about politics that it's no one's business but those involved, and I have to reiterate this statement yet again. Pro-lifers need to stop sticking their noses where they don't belong and butt out; it's not your body, it's not your cluster of cells, and therefore you have absolutely no right whatsoever to judge the woman or influence her decision.

Do I dare disturb the universe?
.
| tumblr | My TS3 Photos |
Field Researcher
Original Poster
#15 Old 13th Jun 2009 at 1:48 AM
I'm glad you're enjoying it. There's not much point to the debate if no one is, is there?

But please note, I did say IF any kind of emotion was leading me in this. I believe human beings are perfectly capable (some more so than others, admittedly) are able to put emotions on a back burner to convictions. Would you say that you're personally incapable of acting without emotion in anything? Somehow I doubt you're hampered that way.

And yeah, it is foolish to debate 'it's wrong, no it's not' without some actual reasoning behind it. It's all about questioning things: what you believe in, what others believe in, everything.

There was a time in my life when getting an abortion would have relieved me of a lot of pressure and made my life a whole lot easier. I was sorely tempted to get one because at the time, there was the distinct possibility that having the baby would cost me my then brand-new marriage. He didn't want a child, and I was a fool that had let my hormones rule my brain and married a man I'd only met a month and a half prior to that. My emotions told me that in order to have any kind of peace, I couldn't have a baby yet. I certainly didn't feel ready for one, and coming from a dysfunctional family of origin, I was quite frightened by the prospect.

But my values said something entirely different from what I was feeling. My convictions were and are that abortion is wrong, period, no matter what it cost me. I'd have to live with the results of my actions, but even if it hadn't been my fault, things just happen sometimes. (I've seen enough proof of that in life, lol.) So, nine months later, I gave birth to my daughter and my husband didn't leave me for another six years (unrelated issue). In my mind, at least I had the satisfaction of knowing I did what was right, even if it wasn't the easiest option. Mind, there are a lot of better people out there than I, but a lot of folks here don't seem to credit anyone with being able to learn from experiences that are anything other than their own, so I offered my story, for what it is worth.

Good grief, enough rambling for now, I think. :D

Eagerly awaiting Silent Hill: Shattered Memories.
Lab Assistant
#16 Old 13th Jun 2009 at 2:02 AM Last edited by jillbean : 13th Jun 2009 at 2:17 AM.
I dont belive all pro lifers are judging. But they do have the right to have an opinion on the subject. And i dont think its fair to just lump pro lifers together as you just have as it would not be right to do so for pro choice.

I think abortion is everybodies business. Not on individual cases of course but on a whole, on its effects on our socity and moral questions it brings up. I am not directly involved in the war in Iraq. Does not mean i do not have the right to pass judgment or pass my opinion. Where it becomes a problem is where you take the debate and your opinions and jugments to a personal level. I think its fine to loby the goverment if thats what you beleive in, but not to stand outside abortion clinics beliteling the feelings of the women already under great emotional pressure.

As always alot of things would be easier with out religion, and the abortion debate goes hand in hand with religion. But its not going to go away. I no many pro choicer's who are also christian. Religion is not the be all and end all.

At the end of the day i am pro choice and pro opinion. Even though i may not share the same opinion, or even think its right does not mean i dont think people should be alowed to have opinions contray to mine. Its their right to say what they feel.

*edit* iv only just seen your new post.

yes actually i do believe i am ruled by my emotions (except for silly things like, what shall i have for breakfast today). But when i talk about emotions im not talking about me crying and laughing, being happy or sad. Im talking about what i feel. Whether this is what i feel is right or wrong, what i feel is injustice or justice. I think these all come from emotions. I think when we think of emotions we think of the extremes and not the every day that rules our disision making.

As regrads to learning from other people. I do believe this is possible. But as humans we rarely listin like we should, and normally feel we know best (im lumping myself in this as well,) In regrads to your daughter. You were stronger than i could have been. But whats right for one isnt always right for the other. I for istance dont want any children. And feel that any i might have wouldnt get the attention and love they would need from me. But due to family presure i dont feel i would be able to give that child up. So an abortion would be my choice (although of course i would not know until in that situation) And accidents can happen even if your careful. Rape is not the only result of a blameless pregnancy.

My name is Jill. But i am not a bean. Not a baked bean, not a lima bean not even a jelly bean . . . . . . . . Ok maybe a jelly bean.
Mad Poster
#17 Old 13th Jun 2009 at 2:08 AM
Rabid's post sums up my thoughts on this subject perfectly (and far more eloquently than I ever could!).

I think in our society many people seem to have the belief that quantity of life is better than quality. IMO that's not the case.

I also just wanted to add - not saying that anyone has said this in this thread, purely mentioning it because it's something that always seems to get ignored - in an abortion debate people should remember that not all women who terminate a pregnancy were stupid and didn't use contraception. Contraception can, and does fail. Most sexually active people will probably experience this at some point in their lives.
Mad Poster
#18 Old 13th Jun 2009 at 2:11 AM
Of course everyone has a right to an opinion, and as an editorial journalist, I thrive on it. That's why we're all in this sub-forum, isn't it? But then again, having an opinion and gunning down abortion clinics because of it are two entirely different schools. I understand that not all pro-lifers are this way, but having an opinion that undermines a woman's rights is when that opinion becomes negotiable.

Kudos for bringing up the point about contraception, el flel; it's one of my mainstays in this debate and I forgot. Like you said, contraception is not infallible, and until it is, abortion should be a legal, accessible avenue. Why should a woman be suddenly jettisoned into parenthood if the condom breaks or the birth control fails?

Quote: Originally posted by el flel
I think in our society many people seem to have the belief that quantity of life is better than quality. IMO that's not the case.


I agree completely. I think that, for some of the opposition, it has become more about the principle than the actual act of termination.

Do I dare disturb the universe?
.
| tumblr | My TS3 Photos |
Field Researcher
Original Poster
#19 Old 13th Jun 2009 at 2:16 AM
Ah, but those whose contraception failed were willingly engaging in sex, were they not? They could have simply gone without.

Eagerly awaiting Silent Hill: Shattered Memories.
Mad Poster
#20 Old 13th Jun 2009 at 2:25 AM
They could have, but to suggest that in this day and age that if you don't want children then you should abstain is just silly. Sex is more than just a way to conceive a child, it's an important part of a relationship. I don't want children, the thought of being pregnant and having children terrifies me, does that mean I should become chaste?

I always mention contraception failures when discussing abortion because my best friend had an abortion as a result of both a condom, AND the morning after pill failing.

As a pro-choicer I think it's far more cruel to bring a child into this world who is not wanted, and who is at a high risk of having a poor quality of life, than it is to terminate that 'life' whilst it is still in the womb and totally incapable of feeling or knowing anything.
Lab Assistant
#21 Old 13th Jun 2009 at 2:25 AM
Quote:
but having an opinion that undermines a woman's rights is when that opinion becomes negotiable


I dont think an opinion ever undermines anyones rights. Its what you do with that opinion. For example i dont think WannabeSith is undermining anyones rights by posting her opinion here. Yet the opinions of radical pro lifers leed them to undermine womens rights.

An opinion is not dangours, its what you do with that opinion that can be harmful. Thats what i was trying to say before.

WannabeSith - I edited my earlier post dont know if you saw it regrading the emotions issue - I took to long writing and by the time i posted, you have posted already.

My name is Jill. But i am not a bean. Not a baked bean, not a lima bean not even a jelly bean . . . . . . . . Ok maybe a jelly bean.
Mad Poster
#22 Old 13th Jun 2009 at 2:28 AM
Not everyone has the sexual constitution of a reclusive monk, and while I certainly don't mean to suggest that the greater adult population is composed of nymphomaniacs, it's human nature to seek a partner and copulate. On average, men will be horny men and women love to be in love- our pheremones necessitate sex, and not everyone has enough self control to ignore them. It's human nature to have sex; humans are animals, too, and mankind can't create contraception foolproof enough to avoid the unwanted outcome of sex. Why should a woman be punished because of her own nature and her species' own failure?

Do I dare disturb the universe?
.
| tumblr | My TS3 Photos |
Field Researcher
Original Poster
#23 Old 13th Jun 2009 at 2:44 AM Last edited by WannabeSith : 13th Jun 2009 at 3:02 AM.
Okay, I see it now, jillbean.

*edit* I do by the way believe it is good to have sex just for fun, not only for procreation. I just think it should be within the context of marriage alone. When I speak of forgoing sex if you absolutely can't bear the possibility of becoming pregnant, I'm simply saying that if you have sex, you should accept the risk, because you know there is a chance it might happen.

Eagerly awaiting Silent Hill: Shattered Memories.
Instructor
#24 Old 13th Jun 2009 at 4:17 AM
Basically, Sith means in Irish, "A fairy who steals babies and adds in the changeling". Nowadays, it means the dark Jedi-like knights whose purpose is to bring the universe into the Dark side.

I think abortion is alright for a lot of women. But there is the nagging grief that comes after abortion like you have killed an innocent child. But losing the child is part of life, whether it's college, suicide, or even a murder. If you consider a clump of cells to be a child, then that would be killing a child who might save a person's life. For me, personally, I don't want that child, if he has autism, to be institutionalized or going through foster homes because of the "Perfect Child Syndrome" with the adoptive parents.

However, I'm going to abstain until I find a right companion for me.

God, please protect me from your idiot followers for they have blinded themselves with bleach.

Money doesn't buy you happiness but it buys you beer and coffee.

Life is like Go. Its takes smart and amoral people to make decisions based on their strategies of living.
Lab Assistant
#25 Old 13th Jun 2009 at 4:24 AM
Quote: Originally posted by jillbean
As for Zoxell's comment. It seams like you have come in here to stir up hate. You have not put your opinions across well and have been a bit childish to be honest.


I have stated my arguments quite well, thanks. Your disagreement with my opinion does not detract from my ability to communicate it. And since we're being honest, I find many of the pro-choicers to be condecending and flippant. I suppose we're all entitled to characterize those who do not agree with our opinion.
And I do not care to stir up hate at all. I care to stir up compassion and regard for human life. I believe every human is entitled to life. But if you are unwilling to recognize an unborn child as a human being, then there is no grounds for logical debate. Unborn children are children just the same and a woman has no right to choose death for an unborn child any more that she has the right to choose death for a birthed child.

The Barimen Legacy (complete) - https://zoxell.wordpress.com/chapters/
The Stacpoole Legacy (gen 1) - https://zoxell.wordpress.com/the-stacpoole-legacy/
 
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