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Lab Assistant
#26 Old 20th Jun 2009 at 9:43 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Mistermook
Probably not, barring the further pondering if they'd somehow continued to fill out the rest of Picasso's body of work.

There was an older lady in several of my art classes in college. Some of her stuff could conceivably be construed as interesting as primitive art if she'd ever given any sign that she A) understood what she was doing and explain it B) showed she could do other forms of art (you know, the ones actually assigned) enough that it was clear that she was making a choice to make art that way. I remember sitting down with her and just trying to get her to shade a sphere or even just draw a circle. She couldn't, or wouldn't. N matter how interesting some of her stuff was, it wasn't art in the same sense as Picasso made art.

Art isn't accidental. Even Pollock knew what he was doing, could explain what he was doing, showed thought and consideration about what he was doing that could only come from knowing the and being fluent in the "rules" he was breaking.

An interesting looking rock formation isn't art either, nor is a sunrise. All that lady would have done to get an A in just about every class she did from here to eternity would have been to demonstrate her art came from skill rather than a mental disorder (yeah, she was pretty out there too) but she couldn't. That's no more art than my six year old nieces, maybe less - the niece can shade a circle if asked to (and do I get thanks? No!)

I hope this doesn't come across as terse (since that was an interesting post) but...are you basically saying that Art is only Art if you can bullshit your way around it? Hypothetically, if two people made the exact same picture, and one said it was an exploration of the Oedipal triangle whilst the other just said it was a trippy painting, would one painting when displayed alongside the other mystically jump out as art?
I see what you're saying about the necessity of understanding the "rules" of art, but don't you think that you could potentially constrain art by doing so?
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Theorist
#27 Old 21st Jun 2009 at 6:39 AM
Quote: Originally posted by Splurgy
I see what you're saying about the necessity of understanding the "rules" of art, but don't you think that you could potentially constrain art by doing so?

No. If you cast the English language randomly in infinite strings billions of trillions of time onto a virtual page and eventually it produced Shakespeare it still wouldn't be Shakespeare and it still wouldn't be proof that art can happen by chance. Understanding is critical to the consideration if something is art, and the degree of the understanding reflects in that consideration too. It's not the sole consideration, but I'm certain that it's a critical one.

Picasso and a three year old sit down and drawn two identical pictures. Whether or not either picture is "good" art is irrelevant, but the idea that you must give Picasso more consideration for the choice in the picture trumps the notion that the child is somehow more talented than Picasso and produces works comparable to Picasso by accident. Picasso is breaking the rules. Picasso can explain the relationship of the work to the rules. The child is making a drawing.

A print machine churns out a million Picasso prints. Is the printing machine Picasso? Is it "just as good as" Picasso? The same Picasso print is mysteriously burnt into a piece of toast, is the toaster an artist? Bill paints the back of a Picasso black with a house paint roller, is it art? Bill paints the back of a Picasso black with sharpie markers to announce his rejection of the principles of Picasso? It might be art.

But yeah, I understand it's a difficult, and vague topic. I think it's fine as long as everyone doesn't get too uptight about any of it. The main thing my art has ever taught me is to not get worked up about what people think about art, and to keep a sense of humor about things that aren't food on the table and roofs overhead.
Lab Assistant
#28 Old 12th Jul 2009 at 5:19 AM
Ugh, this is something that really ticks me off. I'm an animation student, and since I can remember I've always preferred to do stylized, cartoon-esque art. (My dad spent a bit as a cartoonist, so I always think that inspired me. Anywho.) I remember once in a highschool art class I was doing something of this nature and a girl had the audacity to say that people who draw in that way are less talented and trying to cover it up with stylization. Excuse me? I use the same basic principals we all learned years ago. Just because I prefer my faces to look like their out of a Disney flick doesn't mean I don't know what I'm doing.

So, no, I don't think there aren't any rules to art. Especially to a grumpy art student.
Field Researcher
#29 Old 12th Jul 2009 at 4:51 PM
Quote: Originally posted by robokitty
Aside from the implied rigidity of the word "rules," it also has an implied immutability. But art isn't an immutable practice. Art reflects society. It changes over time, in reaction and reflection to the cultural and philosophical attitudes of the day. Which is why a word like "conventions" more neatly describes what is meant by "rules" in art.


I think it exactly means "rules" because said rules change with society, just like art does. Now, I think art has rules and principles, because the principles are always the same, no matter how much society bends and twists its image. Take proportion: it's either applicable, or not. If it's not, that doesn't mean the piece isn't art, it just means that it needs to be explained -- that's why when kids draw the blue stripe at the top of the page, the green one at the bottom, and then put other oddities in the middle, we don't immediately go hang it in a museum or auction it off for money.

As society shifts, art goes with it. That's why we have more than seascapes and painted fruit-bowls hanging in our houses -- or why we idolize women in photographs with slim figures, where the paintings show full-figured women were the biggest craze, back then. We've decided that things exist outside that scape in reality and that there's "beauty" elsewhere, and therefore can be accepted in our creations.
Lab Assistant
#30 Old 17th Jul 2009 at 3:11 PM
art is up to the creator, most true artists make things that THEY like, that they want and enless they are living off their craft don't give a damn about what people think about it. art is meant to be a fun expression of ones self or a painstaking hell to get a picture to look the way it does in your head, therefore there are no rules...

and if there were rules,this right here would be out of the question
http://www.kommiekomiks.com/blood-intro.htm
Theorist
#31 Old 17th Jul 2009 at 8:34 PM
The most true artists argument holds water like most True Scotsmen arguments. To wit, an artist that's only making art for themselves is about as useful as a musician for the deaf. If you're not sharing your art then what do you care about anything about art, you're not making art at all - you're engaging in the creative equivalent to masturbation.

There's nothing wrong with that really, but it's like making arguments about the music industry and music theory based on someone singing in the shower.
Field Researcher
#32 Old 20th Jul 2009 at 8:17 PM
I wonder the same thing myself sometimes... why are we even given grades in Art class? Isn't art all about feeling, and interpretation? Doesn't everyone have different forms of expression?


When the smoke clears, you can consider us even.
Field Researcher
#33 Old 24th Jul 2009 at 1:35 AM
In art CLASS, it's about your understanding and usage of principles, based on an overall level of how "good" you are at it. Meaning, be talented before you sign up for the class -- or in some cases, improve your skill.

But for artists past the study, and into the practice, it's all about catering to an audience that shares your ideology, and doing it well enough to make yourself happy, and keep people interested. That, in itself, implies that there are specific, though differing, rules to the craft, whatever section it may be in (visual, musical, theatrical, whatever else).
Zombie Socks
#34 Old 24th Jul 2009 at 1:59 AM
I think art is anything that is visually appealing. In other words, it changes for everyone. I for one, do not consider Picasso's work to be appealing in the slightest. I think it's just flat-out ugly.

Nintendork Island | Please call me WWW!| Despite what avatar says, loves all of mts <3
Theorist
#35 Old 24th Jul 2009 at 12:42 PM Last edited by Mistermook : 24th Jul 2009 at 12:53 PM.
Quote: Originally posted by omgrawr213
I wonder the same thing myself sometimes... why are we even given grades in Art class? Isn't art all about feeling, and interpretation? Doesn't everyone have different forms of expression?

Because most institutional classes require grading for accreditation.

In any case there's really not much difference between "hanging out with other artists and making art near each other" and a class in the first place if there's no measuring stick, be it from a grade or another artist telling you not to quit your day job. Art isn't about different forms of expression. It's about different forms of specific instances of expression, especially in a classroom environment. You're not going to there to push boundaries and be given absolute freedom, you're going to most art classes to get specific instruction and critique on specific forms of art. If you want more than that from an art class, most of you kids are fooling yourselves.
Test Subject
#36 Old 25th Jul 2009 at 1:40 PM
I doubt many of the famous artists would have ever passed an art class.
Theorist
#37 Old 25th Jul 2009 at 3:52 PM
If you can't pass an art class you're not really trying. The only people I ever saw actually manage it were guys who thought they could show up and do no work and get an A for the thing, and an unfortunate woman who I think might have had serious mental problems.

But on a more direct note, when you can be a famous artists without passing an art class that's always your prerogative. The vast majority of people won't and can't though, ensuring that most people who think they're not going to get anything out of an education are delusional morons.
 
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