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Mad Poster
#101 Old 9th Nov 2016 at 10:08 PM
Is it so that it's not the total number of votes that decides who wins? Because any other way than total number of votes would be a really strange way to do voting. As far as I can see, in this exact moment Clinton has over 200 000 more votes than Trump, and yet is on the losing side. This system makes no sense. No wonder Trump even had a chance to win, when he can apparently somehow win even if he by any normal means would have lost the vote.

US politics make less sense to me every day...
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Former Hamster
retired moderator
#102 Old 9th Nov 2016 at 11:15 PM
In most of the states the "popular choice" (meaning the one with the most votes) candidate gets all of the electoral college votes (the number of electoral votes varies by state). In a couple of states those votes can be divided between the 2 candidates. Since it's not the total number of votes but the total number of electoral votes that decides the winner, it's possible for 1 candidate to be ahead yet not win.
Theorist
#103 Old 10th Nov 2016 at 12:39 AM
The only good news is that it's still 2016, so as a media figure Trump's still a potential victim of murderyear.
Mad Poster
#104 Old 10th Nov 2016 at 2:05 AM
Quote: Originally posted by mustluvcatz
In most of the states the "popular choice" (meaning the one with the most votes) candidate gets all of the electoral college votes (the number of electoral votes varies by state). In a couple of states those votes can be divided between the 2 candidates. Since it's not the total number of votes but the total number of electoral votes that decides the winner, it's possible for 1 candidate to be ahead yet not win.


If that still isn't clear (which is possible, since it's a ridiculous system for the modern world), let me try to distill the process some more.

Imagine a scenario where only two states exist in a nation, one (State A) with one hundred residents and 10 electoral votes, and one (State B) with 90 residents and 9 votes. Now imagine an election where, in State A, 60 people vote for Candidate Joe and 40 vote for Candidate Bob, so all of State A's 10 votes go to Joe. Meanwhile, 80 people in State B vote for Bob and only ten vote for Joe, so Bob gets that state's 9 votes.

What this means is that Joe has 10 electoral votes to Bob's 9, so Joe wins the election. This is the opposite result of the popular vote though, where Joe only has 70 votes and Bob has 120.

(It's also worth mentioning that this system basically means that if you didn't vote for the candidate who wins your state, your vote actually doesn't get counted)

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Mad Poster
#105 Old 10th Nov 2016 at 2:26 AM Last edited by simmer22 : 10th Nov 2016 at 2:52 AM.
^ Which is, simply said, a stupid system. Say, if your state in 9 out of 10 cases ends up voting republican every election, your vote isn't likely to count if you vote democratic. Can anyone honestly say that's a good way to count votes? By this logic, I wouldn't wonder if most of the people who don't vote don't do it because they're pretty much sure their vote does not count. The only chance they have to get a say is if their state tends to be one of the unsure states.

By the same logic, Clinton apparently skipped election speeches in a couple of states because she was sure she'd already won them. Turned out she was about as wrong as she could get about that...

By the way, has it ever happened that the democrats or the republicans didn't win the election (as in, one of the other parties won)? Could have been interesting to see an election where all of them actually had a chance (however small) to win. As it is now, I'm guessing the smaller parties have zip and nada chance to win.

Where I live, the smaller parties actually have a fair chance to win the election. If they win, they come together with some of the other small parties on the same side, and select the head of the winning party as the prime minister. But here, all the votes (as far as I know) actually do count, so this does happen from time to time, even if the bigger parties tend to win.
Mad Poster
#106 Old 10th Nov 2016 at 2:30 AM Last edited by Zarathustra : 10th Nov 2016 at 2:42 AM.
Yup, exactly. I've never seen my vote for President get counted in any of the elections I've been old enough to vote in, and it pisses me off! There's not really a good justification for it in the modern era, especially when every other elected office just uses a popular vote of one sort or another.

And no, no third party has ever won, at least not in a "normal" election. (Abraham Lincoln actually won his reelection in 1864 under the "Union Party" rather than as a Republican, to broaden his base, but that was entirely because of the splintered parties from the Civil War going on. For all practical purposes, he was a Republican). The closest any third party has ever come to actually winning was in 1912, when Teddy Roosevelt didn't get the Republican nomination, and decided to run under the Progressive Party label, which usually gets called the "Bull Moose Party" because of a line in one of Roosevelt's speeches. He didn't win, but he came in second, the highest a third-party-candidate has ever placed in a "normal" election year (if there is such a thing).

Welcome to the Dark Side...
We lied about having cookies.
Theorist
#107 Old 10th Nov 2016 at 3:59 AM
Quote: Originally posted by Zarathustra
(It's also worth mentioning that this system basically means that if you didn't vote for the candidate who wins your state, your vote actually doesn't get counted)


In the current system it's even so that the only votes which actually can make a difference in the election are those of the few bigger swing states as they can make a difference between 0 and max electors in the college. The system is kinda demotivating for people in other states. Why vote in a state with ''no matter what, we end up blue/red''. It's either useless, because ''we ain't win'' or ''we always win''. Next to the already difficult ways to register as a voter.

The gorgeous Tina (TS3) and here loving family available for download here.
Top Secret Researcher
#108 Old 10th Nov 2016 at 4:06 AM
I guess it's about bloody time for a decent proportional system in this so-called democracy.
Theorist
#109 Old 10th Nov 2016 at 4:51 AM
As far as I know, it's the only major election in the world for one spot with such a dumb system. The basis of democracy is that any vote counts equally in the same jurisdiction. As the presidential elections are national elections, any vote from any US citizen should count equal, which is absolutely not even close in the current system. As A) a winner takes it all principle * 51 and B) the relatively high amount of electors for small states with that mandatory minimum of 3 electors per state. A vote from Barrow in Alaska, Key West in Florida, Chula Vista in California and Eastport in Maine should all count the same. Now, the first two are basically more worthy, as the first one is from a too small state with 3 electors and the second one is more relevant as swing state.

Just do it like France. One round with all candidates, a second round with the top two if someone doesn't win the first round with an absolute majority.

And I've a perfect solution for voting registration. Once registered, always registered. For primaries, only registered members of a party with a minimum length of membership (to prevent trolling with temporarily memberships) eligible to vote. With all the fucking internet and you still have to host primaries? Damn...

The gorgeous Tina (TS3) and here loving family available for download here.
Top Secret Researcher
#110 Old 10th Nov 2016 at 5:38 AM
The Canadian system is just as bad. But we are finally talking about electoral reform. Hopefully it will be proportional.
Mad Poster
#111 Old 10th Nov 2016 at 8:50 AM
Quote: Originally posted by Viktor86
And I've a perfect solution for voting registration. Once registered, always registered. For primaries, only registered members of a party with a minimum length of membership (to prevent trolling with temporarily memberships) eligible to vote. With all the fucking internet and you still have to host primaries? Damn...


Wher I live, there's just one vote that actually counts. It's the one and final. Sure, TV, internet, radio and newspapers love to run their little polls, but none of it actually matters. People can pre-vote from a set date and up until the actual voting day (if they live elsewhere than their voting area, aren't available on the voting day, or for various other reasons) or vote on the voting date, and all votes count equally. This is true for local elections (choosing local governing parties - here anyone can win no matter how small the party is) and for the country-wide election (who's in the government for the next few years). The two are completely separate.

I do see a few reasons why a country as large and divided as the US needs to split it up between states (most of the states are larger than my country, population-wise). But it's still a stupid system. There's nothing in the way of counting each vote on an equal basis.
Instructor
#112 Old 10th Nov 2016 at 1:25 PM
The electoral college is a joke that was put into place to keep the power in the hands of a few powerful states instead of the people, if you don't live in one of half a dozen states that counts then your vote is worthless. Clinton and Gore both won the popular vote but lost the election because of the electoral college. What is the point of even having a system where people vote for president when it is really a handful of elite and powerful people who pick the president. It's a shell game and a scam and IMO it needs to be done away with as it serve no purpose other then to make the people's choice not count.

My PC specs.
Windows 7 64 bit,AMD FX 4300 quad core processor, 8 gigs DDR3 ram, 1 gig Geforce 9500 graphics card, patch 1.67.2
Every time I reinstall the game I run it clean without any CC, not even the store bought stuff so it isn't CC or mods that cause me trouble.
Instructor
#113 Old 10th Nov 2016 at 1:31 PM
Of course there is always this solution to the current problem. At this point I am not sure if it would be better or worse then Trump taking office, what do you think?

This is an honest question and I am not trying to wind anyone up or break any rules, I am not sure how I feel about this option.

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/...take-over-2016#

My PC specs.
Windows 7 64 bit,AMD FX 4300 quad core processor, 8 gigs DDR3 ram, 1 gig Geforce 9500 graphics card, patch 1.67.2
Every time I reinstall the game I run it clean without any CC, not even the store bought stuff so it isn't CC or mods that cause me trouble.
Mad Poster
#114 Old 10th Nov 2016 at 4:15 PM Last edited by HarVee : 10th Nov 2016 at 9:17 PM.
Quote: Originally posted by EvilMcNastySim2015
Of course there is always this solution to the current problem. At this point I am not sure if it would be better or worse then Trump taking office, what do you think?

This is an honest question and I am not trying to wind anyone up or break any rules, I am not sure how I feel about this option.

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/...take-over-2016#


Hard to take any petition serious when it say this...

Quote:
One of the most qualified candidates in history is being overshadowed by a misogynistic, racist, bigot, orange-ape.


My thoughts real simple. What happened is what happened... Trump won. People need to suck it up and stop acting like dramatic crybabies and accept reality like adults. Trump America country president now .... for better or worse.

Because the earth is standing still, and the truth becomes a lie
A choice profound is bittersweet, no one hears Cassandra Goth cry

Instructor
#115 Old 10th Nov 2016 at 6:56 PM
Well it didn't take long for This to happen.

My PC specs.
Windows 7 64 bit,AMD FX 4300 quad core processor, 8 gigs DDR3 ram, 1 gig Geforce 9500 graphics card, patch 1.67.2
Every time I reinstall the game I run it clean without any CC, not even the store bought stuff so it isn't CC or mods that cause me trouble.
Mad Poster
#116 Old 10th Nov 2016 at 7:03 PM
Impeach president before they even have chance to have their rule? Pretty sure that petition will not work either. They need actual reason to impeach Trump, and Trump has done nothing wrongful that would need impeachment...

You Americans are crazy and this just sad.

Because the earth is standing still, and the truth becomes a lie
A choice profound is bittersweet, no one hears Cassandra Goth cry

Instructor
#117 Old 10th Nov 2016 at 7:49 PM
Quote: Originally posted by HarVee
Impeach president before they even have chance to have their rule? Pretty sure that petition will not work either. They need actual reason to impeach Trump, and Trump has done nothing wrongful that would need impeachment...

You Americans are crazy and this just sad.


Not all Americans are crazy, HarVee. Some of us are rational creatures who possess the maturity to accept the election results like actual adults should. We are not the ones who are rioting, vandalizing and threatening to kill the new President-Elect or the people who supported him.

A fool and his money are soon parted. ~ Thomas Tusser
Mad Poster
#118 Old 10th Nov 2016 at 8:40 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Dixieland
Not all Americans are crazy, HarVee. Some of us are rational creatures who possess the maturity to accept the election results like actual adults should. We are not the ones who are rioting, vandalizing and threatening to kill the new President-Elect or the people who supported him.

I know I know.. When I say crazy I refer to ones that, like you say, not able peacefully accept result and turn to doing the vandalize and riot and petitions and such things.

Because the earth is standing still, and the truth becomes a lie
A choice profound is bittersweet, no one hears Cassandra Goth cry

Inventor
#119 Old 10th Nov 2016 at 11:18 PM
Quote: Originally posted by HarVee
Impeach president before they even have chance to have their rule? Pretty sure that petition will not work either. They need actual reason to impeach Trump, and Trump has done nothing wrongful that would need impeachment...

Actually, he has. There are already multiple accusations of sexual assault surrounding him (one of which is against a girl in her very early teens, like 13-14, and US age of consent is 18), not to mentions several incidents where he has denied saying or doing something when he in fact has done so, even when there has been massive evidence, including video. If he lied while under oath or something similar, he could be charged with perjury. If he's found guilty of either sexual assault or perjury, then it's almost certain he will be impeached. Nixon was going to be impeached back in the 70's for his involvement in Watergate (but resigned before he could be), and if I remember correctly, what was levied against him was much less than what Trump is facing now.

Not saying that that petition and doing things like rioting are the right way to go, just saying, Trump isn't exactly innocent.
Theorist
#120 Old 10th Nov 2016 at 11:36 PM
Quote: Originally posted by simmer22
Wher I live, there's just one vote that actually counts. It's the one and final. Sure, TV, internet, radio and newspapers love to run their little polls, but none of it actually matters. People can pre-vote from a set date and up until the actual voting day (if they live elsewhere than their voting area, aren't available on the voting day, or for various other reasons) or vote on the voting date, and all votes count equally. This is true for local elections (choosing local governing parties - here anyone can win no matter how small the party is) and for the country-wide election (who's in the government for the next few years). The two are completely separate.

I do see a few reasons why a country as large and divided as the US needs to split it up between states (most of the states are larger than my country, population-wise). But it's still a stupid system. There's nothing in the way of counting each vote on an equal basis.


Even the smallest countries are divided in states, provinces or something similar for practical purposes.

My country is only smaller than California, Texas, New York and maybe Florida and we have a proportional system with any vote counting equally, national candidate lists for the parliament and already registered as voter when you're registered at the local city hall, even at birth.

For the elections next year, I got a mail this afternoon about e-voting for the candidate list for my party. If the Netherlands can do it, the US should also be able to do it.

The gorgeous Tina (TS3) and here loving family available for download here.
Instructor
#121 Old 11th Nov 2016 at 12:01 AM
Quote: Originally posted by HarVee
I know I know.. When I say crazy I refer to ones that, like you say, not able peacefully accept result and turn to doing the vandalize and riot and petitions and such things.


It's cool, HarVee. These news reports I'm reading are just really making me disgusted.

A fool and his money are soon parted. ~ Thomas Tusser
Mad Poster
#122 Old 11th Nov 2016 at 12:16 AM
Quote: Originally posted by anothereyjana
(one of which is against a girl in her very early teens, like 13-14, and US age of consent is 18)


Has this actually proven? Because any person with agenda against some other can say they got raped. But it take legitimate evidence to prove. Of course rape difficult prove... but without evidence it just wind-blowing.

Quote: Originally posted by anothereyjana
not to mentions several incidents where he has denied saying or doing something when he in fact has done so, even when there has been massive evidence, including video.


We change our mind when presented with new ideologies or circumstances. I say this before, persons words and actions of past time not always indication of who they are now or who they can become. It easy for person say they support war but change their mind when war become unfavourable. This just part of being human. To hold this over Trump is to hold bread over hungry person...


Quote: Originally posted by anothereyjana
Trump isn't exactly innocent.


I not recall saying he is. No person completely innocent and completely without crime or lie or sin...

Because the earth is standing still, and the truth becomes a lie
A choice profound is bittersweet, no one hears Cassandra Goth cry

Theorist
#123 Old 11th Nov 2016 at 12:37 AM
Quote: Originally posted by HarVee
I not recall saying he is. No person completely innocent and completely without crime or lie or sin...


''Who is without sin, throws the first rock.''

The gorgeous Tina (TS3) and here loving family available for download here.
Mad Poster
#124 Old 11th Nov 2016 at 12:52 AM
Quote: Originally posted by Viktor86
''Who is without sin, throws the first rock.''

John 8:7

But yes, though not Christian myself, that is similar to what I try say.

Because the earth is standing still, and the truth becomes a lie
A choice profound is bittersweet, no one hears Cassandra Goth cry

Inventor
#125 Old 11th Nov 2016 at 1:14 AM
@HarVee--The multiple allegations (by which I mean more than 10) have all been denied by Trump, but there is a very well-know video (which has been circulating online and is very easy to find) of him bragging about sexually assaulting women and encouraging other men to do the same. Not only that, but many of the claims are backed up by multiple witnesses (such as when he barged into the locker/changing room of the Miss Teen USA pagent, and jokingly told them not to bother covering up when they tried to). Here, here, and here are just the first three lists of the massive amounts of charges against him. Here is the official CNN page for it.

This article and video mentions that there is a court hearing coming up in December in NY for one of these accusations, not to mention lists other incidents where people have accused him of sexual assault long before he even attempted seriously to run this year, one of which was one of his former wives. This is the Snopes pages for accusations with the 13-year-old, who also mentioned the involvement of a convicted sex offender who has commited so many offenses that he has been put on the list for life.

One of Trump's many responses to these claims has been to threaten to sue not just the accusers, but even the media outlets who publish/report them.
When I said Trump was "not exactly innocent," I didn't mean in the philosophical sense, no, I meant that there is plenty of reasons to legitimately impeach him based on trending criminal charges, rather than just knee-jerk calling for impeachment because people don't like him.
 
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