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Instructor
Original Poster
#1 Old 12th Sep 2011 at 10:38 PM
Default Losing all faith in America.....
If this is in the wrong forum, please move it.



Growing up I was taught that America is the greatest country in the world and that everyone else is inferior. Now I realize that was nothing more than the biggest lie ever.

Everyone internationally never seem to have one nice thing to say about Americans. The "Ugly Fat American" stereotype is what caused this and is what is gonna contribute to the USA's potential downfall. Our government seems to do much more harm than good with our relations with other countries and as a result almost every single European country talks shit about us.

And we deserve it. For so many years we've done so many horrific things to minorities, raicism,xenophobia,gay bashing....I think its about time we were on the recieving end of the deal.

I'm not a politician. I don't take sides with any political party nor do I agree with their views, I'm just an 18 year old kid who actually takes time out to care about others (shocker). But I honestly cannot say i'm proud to be an American. Sometimes I just want to leave and move to a different country. But then theres the idea that most Americans are not welcome in Europe and Australia because of the whole "Ugly Fat American" stereotype. I feel like I'm surrounded by a giant wall. I want to get out but I feel like I can't.

If you are an American patriot, then good for you. You still have faith in America while mine was completley shattered.

Who else feels this way?
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Theorist
#2 Old 12th Sep 2011 at 10:52 PM Last edited by Robodl95 : 12th Sep 2011 at 11:31 PM.
Honestly, I think that the bigger issue is the people who stereotype Americans and other groups. I just can't stand it. You'd think that we'd have moved past that behavior by now. If Europeans/Australians really have that big of an issue with us (which most don't) then that's their fault, they're showing that same xenophobic attitude that you're talking about in America. As for the other things that you mentioned, I think that everyone has things that they are proud and not proud of about their country. Xenophobia is a problem that a lot of countries face, and we still have a way to go on gay rights but at least we don't pelt tomatoes or hang them like in some countries. I am proud that we are free, mostly safe, clean, etc. Definitely far from utopia, but I wouldn't live anywhere else.

Hi I'm Paul!
Instructor
#3 Old 12th Sep 2011 at 11:03 PM
I don't think any country is entirely perfect. America is no exception. But that doesn't mean America is not a decent place to live. It just means those who do care about America need to be proactive and change the way it's perceived by making changes within America. At least in this country it's possible to make changes to the government without a violent overthrow of the old leaders. As a people we need to accept responsibility for ourselves and our international image. No one's going to come along and fix it for us.
Instructor
#4 Old 12th Sep 2011 at 11:50 PM
“Growing up I was taught that America is the greatest country in the world and that everyone else is inferior. Now I realize that was nothing more than the biggest lie ever. “

I think if you were taught this, then this is part of the problem. No country is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

“Everyone internationally never seem to have one nice thing to say about Americans.”

And so because other people hate us, that makes us wrong/evil/bad?

“ The "Ugly Fat American" stereotype is what caused this and is what is gonna contribute to the USA's potential downfall.”

If the sum extent as to why we are going to heck in a hand basket is because of a stereotype, I don’t agree.

“ Our government seems to do much more harm than good with our relations with other countries and as a result almost every single European country talks shit about us.

They talk shit about everyone, though. If you constantly are looking to get Europe’s approval, you’re going to be sadly disappointed in life.

“And we deserve it. For so many years we've done so many horrific things to minorities, raicism,xenophobia,gay bashing....I think its about time we were on the recieving end of the deal.

You are tarring everyone with the same brush, and that is just as bad as what you purport the Europeans are doing. Last I checked every country went through a phase of treating minoriites poorly, and not dealing well with homosexuality. That doesn’t mean, because some people in a country aren’t enlightened towards these issues, ‘we’ collective deserve bad treatment.

“If you are an American patriot, then good for you. You still have faith in America while mine was completley shattered.

While I’m sorry your faith in America is so easily shattered, you need to look at the big picture, of where the country is going and changing, and how we’ve changed. Nothing is ever black and white, and if you expect America- or Europe or any country to be totally evolved and enlightened you will be disappointed.

My advice would be to study more history, and not expect Americans to be perfect. The real world is a more complex shade of gray than that. Also, if you gauge your satisfaction with America based on anyone’s approval you are going to be disappointed. My second bit of advice is if you don’t like the way things are, to join organizations to affect the changes you want to see happen. America, is like life- what you make of it. We are cahanging and growing.

So to answer your question, no, I don't feel this way. We are not perfect, but neither is Europe or any other country. .
Lab Assistant
#5 Old 13th Sep 2011 at 12:20 AM
Quote: Originally posted by fraroc
Everyone internationally never seem to have one nice thing to say about Americans. The "Ugly Fat American" stereotype is what caused this and is what is gonna contribute to the USA's potential downfall. Our government seems to do much more harm than good with our relations with other countries and as a result almost every single European country talks shit about us.

And we deserve it. For so many years we've done so many horrific things to minorities, raicism,xenophobia,gay bashing....I think its about time we were on the recieving end of the deal.

I'm not a politician. I don't take sides with any political party nor do I agree with their views, I'm just an 18 year old kid who actually takes time out to care about others (shocker). But I honestly cannot say i'm proud to be an American. Sometimes I just want to leave and move to a different country. But then theres the idea that most Americans are not welcome in Europe and Australia because of the whole "Ugly Fat American" stereotype. I feel like I'm surrounded by a giant wall. I want to get out but I feel like I can't.


No country is perfect and the 'greatest' countries often have the dirtiest histories. But I am quite confused as to why you're so concerned with the attitudes in Europe and Australia towards America. Those areas have extremely shameful histories as well. Many Western European countries were colonizers and exploited the resources and people of the lands they conquered. Many former colonizers like France and England are dealing with the aftermath of said exploitation with the influx of people from the former colonies searching for work because of the devastating impact of colonialism on their homelands. Racism is thus a huge problem throughout the entire continent, no matter what some Europeans claim.

And as for Australia... they are not exactly kind to the native population, or anyone who doesn't appear to be European for that matter. Plenty of Asian students studying there have discussed their experiences of discrimination. Indigenous Australians have experienced constant discrimination much like the Native Americans. So you see, every country has its good and not so positive qualities. Our society and every other nation's society are far too complicated to make such claims as "America is horrible" or "England is amazing".

On a lighter note, Australia actually took the crown from us for most obese nation a few years ago. I have no idea if that's still the case, but there's a silver lining to every cloud.
Field Researcher
#6 Old 13th Sep 2011 at 12:26 AM
I would never live in USA, myself. That doesn't mean I hate the USA, I simply don't like some things about it... and personally would never live in a country without universal medical care. My ideology clashes with the "american way of life" totally. Anyway, if someone moves out from the USA to my country I don't care, I won't hate that person for having born in a country whose policies I tend to dislike.

By the way, one thing that I don't like is people referring to USA as "America". No, that's not its name, America is a continent, which is far bigger than the USA.
Theorist
#7 Old 13th Sep 2011 at 1:05 AM
Quote:
By the way, one thing that I don't like is people referring to USA as "America". No, that's not its name, America is a continent, which is far bigger than the USA.

What should we call ourselves then? United Statesians is awkward to say. America is just a shortened part of our name. It isn't even a continent because there's two, NA and SA. We have as much right to call ourselves Americans as people from The Republic of India do to call themselves Indians (because India is a sub-continent which encompasses several other countries besides India).

Hi I'm Paul!
Forum Resident
#8 Old 13th Sep 2011 at 1:12 AM Last edited by Tempscire : 13th Sep 2011 at 1:26 AM.
Quote: Originally posted by pinketamine
By the way, one thing that I don't like is people referring to USA as "America". No, that's not its name, America is a continent, which is far bigger than the USA.

Since I don't really have anything to add to address the OP (everyone else has covered that pretty well, I think), I'll address this. The full name of the country is the United States of America. For comparison, the country commonly referred to as Mexico and its citizens as Mexicans is fully named the United Mexican States. "China" is fully the People's Republic of China, yet no one protests we should refer to their nationality as People's Republicans.

However, your profile says you're in Spain-- is this correct? Is that your native country? Because I think language plays a big part in this "stop calling yourself Americans" thing. In Spanish, I understand, a US citizen would say he is an estadounidense. "Americano"-- American-- refers to the broader continent(s). However, that's not how the distinction is drawn in English, and when referring to the non-U.S., modifiers of North/Central/South are used.


ETA: Okay, guess I lied about not having anything to add to the OP.
Quote: Originally posted by fraroc
I'm just an 18 year old kid who actually takes time out to care about others (shocker).

First off, just to be clear, I don't believe the US is perfect or beyond all criticism. Nor do I mean to dismiss your opinions with something as silly as age. BUT. I remember being high school-aged, when you have this perfect blend of worldly awareness and youthful confidence, and I'll just say that the attitude expressed in your post is not unique or unfamiliar. Speaking only for myself-- and I'm not a great deal older than you, really--you proceed to keep learning and keep getting new perspectives on top of what brought you to your current mindset. For myself, I find the US to be very flawed (and anyone trying to claim otherwise, or those who suggest that mentioning America's mistakes in history class is indoctrinating kids to hate their own country, ought never be listened to seriously), but I'm no longer of the "omg worst country ever" mindset. Every country has its pluses and minuses, and people are people everywhere.
Instructor
#9 Old 13th Sep 2011 at 1:42 AM Last edited by SimsLover50 : 13th Sep 2011 at 2:03 AM.
Quote: Originally posted by pinketamine
By the way, one thing that I don't like is people referring to USA as "America". No, that's not its name, America is a continent, which is far bigger than the USA.


It's an abbreviation.. Sadly, the people who named our country didn't think, how awkward it would be to call yourself a USA'an or USAian.

or worse: a united states of american. <edited>
Instructor
#10 Old 13th Sep 2011 at 4:04 AM
I find it sad that you are growing up with the attitude that " if you are not from the US you are inferior".
I was subjected to that kind of thinking when I lived in California for a couple of years and I found it very immature. I loved the country itself, it's some of the people I didn't like.
The ones I met were loud, in your face and arrogant (no offense to the Americans here, it's just the ones I met personally), since "you are not from the US, you are beneath me" attitude.

Like already said, no country is perfect, every country has something in their past they wish to forget. History can't be undone but can be learned from.

I think your statement that Americans aren't welcome in Europe or Australia isn't correct. I can't speak for Europe since I haven't lived there in a long time, I live in Australia and we have Americans living here and the once I have met love living here, they say it's the best thing they ever did coming here.

I think what most Australians don't like is when non-English speaking people come here and don't bother learning the language. What a lot of them don't do, if you chose a country to immigrate to, you should have the decency to learn the language.

I hope you come to terms with your own country, I don't think it's as bad as you think.

You can find more of my stuff here: http://www.blackpearlsims.com/downloads.php
Field Researcher
#11 Old 13th Sep 2011 at 2:40 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Extensa5420
Tell me more about your view of the "American way of life". Yep, I can totally picture a stereotypical American, watching TV like a couch potato and driving a car and wearing clothes made by the hands of illegal immigrants. The stereotypical American probably also lives in a suburban house with a wife, 2.5 kids, and a pet dog.


Haha, no, I wasn't referring to that. When I said the "American way of life" is was thinking more in the education and health system. USA politics in general are much more right-winged than what I consider acceptable. As I said, I would never life in any country without a universal health and education system (this includes university too). And I don't support USA's defense policies, among other things. I just don't like how politics work in the USA, in general.

Quote: Originally posted by Tempscire
Since I don't really have anything to add to address the OP (everyone else has covered that pretty well, I think), I'll address this. The full name of the country is the United States of America. For comparison, the country commonly referred to as Mexico and its citizens as Mexicans is fully named the United Mexican States. "China" is fully the People's Republic of China, yet no one protests we should refer to their nationality as People's Republicans.

However, your profile says you're in Spain-- is this correct? Is that your native country? Because I think language plays a big part in this "stop calling yourself Americans" thing. In Spanish, I understand, a US citizen would say he is an estadounidense. "Americano"-- American-- refers to the broader continent(s). However, that's not how the distinction is drawn in English, and when referring to the non-U.S., modifiers of North/Central/South are used.

It might actually be a language problem. It doesn't bother me when people call themselves americans, I can understand that USAian sound awkward, what I dislike is naming the country itself America because it seems that they are simply ignoring millions of people who also live in America but not in the USA.
Field Researcher
#12 Old 13th Sep 2011 at 3:13 PM
My take is that America is too large to generalize as a whole. We aren't a single nation as we use to be. Growing up, I wasn't taught "America is big, awesome, and the cool kid on the playground". I was taught more about Michigan and had general history on it.

I honestly pay little attention to people doing American stereotypes or anti-America sayings. I really can't be bothered to give a fuck about any of it. They can sit in their own ignorance. I don't hate any other nation in the world, nor do I think highly of ours because I think there are a lot of things we need to work on.

You don't need to be a patriot. You don't need to even need to support the nation. You SHOULD be grateful if you've had a good upbringing and had a chance to benefit from what other people had to pay taxes for, such as your schooling.

As for America doing these "crimes", every nation has done it at some point, many have done worse. No one is innocent in this world, and no one needs to be pointing fingers. The more you look at other people for them being a citizen of a nation, and less of a human, the more you are promoting this ignorance.

EDIT:Also, I'm 19. Age is nothing special.
Scholar
#13 Old 13th Sep 2011 at 3:31 PM
Quote: Originally posted by pinketamine
because it seems that they are simply ignoring millions of people who also live in America but not in the USA.



Technically, they don't live in "America", they live in "the Americas".

Sarcasm is a body's natural defense against stupid.
Instructor
#14 Old 13th Sep 2011 at 4:09 PM
Quote: Originally posted by pinketamine
I can understand that USAian sound awkward, what I dislike is naming the country itself America because it seems that they are simply ignoring millions of people who also live in America but not in the USA.


We aren't ignoring them, though.

We are well aware there are others on the continent besides us and before us as well. So as they say, perception does not equal reality. We are simply the only ones who chose to be unimaginative and add it to the name of our country.

The name of the country really isn't something modern people have much to do with I'm afraid. The country was named America quite some time ago.
Scholar
#15 Old 13th Sep 2011 at 4:53 PM
I used to hate that I was a Texan because there's a lot of arrogance and hate floating around here. You're probably well aware of the way we treat our criminals. Some people actually still refer to us as the Republic of Texas.

I realized that I wasn't being fair. You can't just make such extreme generalizations about a huge group of people. Every country has it's flaws and it's strengths and you can't get hung up on stereotypes whether they're good or bad because people deserve more than that. No matter where I live, there's something I can take pride in.

Quote: Originally posted by fraroc
I'm just an 18 year old kid who actually takes time out to care about others (shocker).
I'm not a guru and I'm not your mom so I'm not going to tell you what to do, but I am going to say that people aren't sheep. It's weird that you say you care about people, but you just lump them together and judge them by their stereotypes.

"You're born naked, and everything else is drag."
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Mad Poster
#16 Old 13th Sep 2011 at 6:59 PM
One thing to remember, if you don't like the laws in one state, try a different. People often forget that the USA is sort of halfway between being a single country and a conglomeration of countries. Massachusetts has universal health care: if that's your cup of tea, move there. Our constitution's really pretty short and readable, and spells out pretty clearly what the federal government can and cannot do. The states can do pretty much anything not expressly reserved to the federal government. One way the federal government gets around this is bribery. Take the drinking age: States determine the drinking age. The federal government wanted it to be 21. So, since the federal government has certain road-related rights, they tied funding for the interstate highway system to states having a drinking age of 21. The state governments considered whether or not they wanted money, decided they did, and set the drinking ages the way the feds wanted it.

I think we ended up with the name we did for much the same reasons the European Union ended up with the name they did: there really wasn't a better choice for a conglomeration. As the union of the states evolved, the name stayed. The European Union doesn't contain every European nation (Switzerland, Iceland, Norway, off the top of my head), the United States of America doesn't contain every American nation. Remember that state and nation were synonyms at the time the USA was formed. If you object to the United States of America as a name, do you also object to the European Union as a name? If not, why not?
Theorist
#17 Old 13th Sep 2011 at 8:41 PM
I think people from Europe or Asia are more prone to say "I'm European" or "I'm Asian" but it's not the same in the Americas. If you want to say I'm from ____ continent then they would say "I'm North American" or "I'm from South America". Just saying that you're from America would mean that you're from the US. A Canadian person wouldn't say they're from America.

I wasn't taught that America was the greatest nation ever either. There definitely is a lot of national pride and you're taught to be proud of our history and accomplishments, etc. but it was never so arrogant.

Hi I'm Paul!
Instructor
Original Poster
#18 Old 13th Sep 2011 at 9:13 PM
Quote: Originally posted by ~Dee~
I find it sad that you are growing up with the attitude that " if you are not from the US you are inferior".


I think that was mainly because of the Post-9/11 hysteria in America. I understand that you want to honor your country after a horrifying tragedy, but some of it became very extremist and it's sad....you see Rodney King-esque beatings by police all the time in the news because of racial profiling against the Middle East. Its fucking disgusting.
Instructor
#19 Old 13th Sep 2011 at 9:19 PM
Quote: Originally posted by fraroc
I think that was mainly because of the Post-9/11 hysteria in America. I understand that you want to honor your country after a horrifying tragedy, but some of it became very extremist and it's sad....you see Rodney King-esque beatings by police all the time in the news because of racial profiling against the Middle East. Its fucking disgusting.


Please cite the incidents of rodney king-esque beatings by the police who are profiling middle easterners which are occuring 'all the time' in the us.

Police brutality occurs in every country, sometimes justified, sometimes not. But I don't really see this occuring 'all the time' in the US.
Field Researcher
#20 Old 14th Sep 2011 at 3:19 AM
Quote: Originally posted by fraroc
I think that was mainly because of the Post-9/11 hysteria in America. I understand that you want to honor your country after a horrifying tragedy, but some of it became very extremist and it's sad....you see Rodney King-esque beatings by police all the time in the news because of racial profiling against the Middle East. Its fucking disgusting.


I must be a little out of the loop. I don't see, read, or know of people getting beat down all the time. In fact, I don't know if I've even seen one.

Get some facts straight, lest ye' become what you complained about.
Lab Assistant
#21 Old 14th Sep 2011 at 3:05 PM
"Everyone internationally never seem to have one nice thing to say about Americans. The "Ugly Fat American" stereotype is what caused this and is what is gonna contribute to the USA's potential downfall. Our government seems to do much more harm than good with our relations with other countries and as a result almost every single European country talks shit about us."

If you're going to worry about the negative things that each and every European country says about the USA you'll be crying until the end of time. Guess what? We talk shit about EVERYBODY. I'm British, and I can tell you with absolute certainty that European countries talk far more shit about each other than they do about the USA. France? Good god man, they eat frogs and snails and tiny birds drowned in alcohol! Cheese eating surrender monkeys the lot of them! Germany? Woah, I'm not even going to go there, they're such an uptight bunch. Poland? They keep coming over here, stealing our jobs and our health service, how dare they! We can't even get on with other people in our own country. Scotland is full of violent misers, the Welsh Will Not stop WHINING - yes I know it rains a lot, get over it! The South of England is full of soft southern pansies who know nothing about the hardships up North, the North of England is full of knuckle-dragging whippet breeding unemployed coal-miners. Everyone has some reason to stereotype and dislike everybody else.

Even if you were the most perfect country in all the world, shit would still be talked.

As for the "Ugly Fat American" stereotype, well stereotypes generally are bad, but this one is really not so much of a problem as you might think. I don't know why Americans think that everyone else thinks that. Sure, we know the average American is overweight, and we think we have the most awesome education system in the world ever, but the majority of people don't think you're all stupid fat and ugly. Do you have any idea how much American TV makes it overseas? And how many movies you produce? It's not like we haven't ever seen you at your best! I turn on the tv and I'm bombarded with images of the "ideal American" - tall, beautiful, successful people with careers in law and chemically whitened teeth. I know, I know, you're not all like that either - I'm just saying, we see a lot of American culture in moves and TV, and it doesn't suggest that you're ugly or stupid. That's a stereotype of tourists, and having lived in Edinburgh I met a fair few of those. If you don't want people to think "lol dumb Americans" when they see you, don't ask them where the castle is when you're standing on a bridge taking a picture of the lovely views of... the castle.

But then again, the stereotype of British tourists is that we TALK VE RY SLOW LY AND LOUD LY IN ENG LISH because we can't be arsed learning any other languages, and we're a nasty violent lot who will wreck your football stadiums. Nobody likes tourists.

As for the rest of it, please don't beat yourself up for what you think your country has done wrong. You are not your country, you are not solely responsible for what your government has or has not done, and the majority of people in other countries will not hold you responsible. If that ever happens all you have to say is that you voted for the other guy.
And every country out there has some skeletons in the closet. Or lurching up out of the ground and attacking the populace It's not a uniquely American thing.

My mum moved to the UK from Baltimore when she was 10, and while she did get picked on at school for having a funny accent (to us some American accents sound like you're talking in slow motion!), she never got any stick for it as an adult. And her mother has lived here for the past nearly 50 years, and she's never had any problems.

If you really want to travel, don't let the fact that you're American hold you back. Most people won't judge you badly for it.
Forum Resident
#22 Old 14th Sep 2011 at 8:06 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Robodl95
If you want to say I'm from ____ continent then they would say "I'm North American" or "I'm from South America". Just saying that you're from America would mean that you're from the US.

Which is why I think it's really just a language/translation thing. A Brazilian might say they are an Americano rather than specifically saying 'South American'-- they are part of the Americas. With that convention, a US citizen saying they are American does seem to be saying that only this particular nation embodies all the Americas, just because English doesn't share the same national/geographic connotations and doesn't have a word equivalent to estadounidense ("United States"-centric rather than "of America"-centric).

It's basically the Serious Business version of the cookie/biscuit divide.
Test Subject
#23 Old 15th Sep 2011 at 6:11 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Tempscire
Which is why I think it's really just a language/translation thing. A Brazilian might say they are an Americano rather than specifically saying 'South American'-- they are part of the Americas. With that convention, a US citizen saying they are American does seem to be saying that only this particular nation embodies all the Americas, just because English doesn't share the same national/geographic connotations and doesn't have a word equivalent to estadounidense ("United States"-centric rather than "of America"-centric).

It's basically the Serious Business version of the cookie/biscuit divide.


If a Native of Brazil might call themselves Americano, how does a citizen of the US (or, frankly a great part of the world who shares the habit) referring to a citizen of the US as an American differ? Nor do I think how an in individual refers to themselves has anything to do with vanity or xenophobia - it's a cultural thing.
Like saying people from New Jersey, USA are from "Jersey". Well, they're not; Jersey is an island hugging the coast of France... But that's how people from my state refer to ourselves because it is argot. (common slang)

Bottom line - IMHO: People who never travel; who do not get exposed (and absorb) other cultural values as being different but just as valid is going to act ignorant simply because they are ignorant. And People from very large countries like those in the Americas seem to have less cross-continental experiences with travel and culture in the last 1/2 century.
Test Subject
#24 Old 15th Sep 2011 at 6:18 PM
To the main topic: Have I lost my faith in America? Well, I don't know that I ever bought in to the "yeah us" at everyone else's expense in the first place. But, the more I look at people and their petty, selfish ways, and observe our government and the chronic BS in the name of "democracy" and the universal good for me at the expense of my fellow human and the notion that my religious believes will preserve me but the rest of you are damned for disagreeing... I think I've lost my philathropy in general.

I still belive in feeding the world, giving shelter, clothing and care to those who live without basic human dignities... But step back from a person and observe people as a group? Bah! I have no use for the lot of them... When I see people acting badly everyday, I start to look more and more like my avatar.
Forum Resident
#25 Old 15th Sep 2011 at 6:21 PM
Quote: Originally posted by tongues
If a Native of Brazil might call themselves Americano, how does a citizen of the US (or, frankly a great part of the world who shares the habit) referring to a citizen of the US as an American differ?

I didn't say it was vanity or xenophobia...? That's why I made the cookie reference. And it's different because of the connotation of "Americano," which I elaborated on in my previous post.

ETA:
Quote: Originally posted by tongues
And People from very large countries like those in the Americas seem to have less cross-continental experiences with travel and culture in the last 1/2 century.

As opposed to all that open-minded and intercontinental travel people were known for doing in the earlier half of the last century? I mean, sure, a good segment got to go abroad for the World Wars, but, uh...yeah. I'm not sure what your comparison point is, because the last 50 years have been great, travel-wise. What with the inventions of jets and otherwise fast and affordable travel options, whereas once upon a time no one got to go anywhere unless they were emigrating or insanely wealthy.
 
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