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Original Poster
#1 Old 17th Feb 2013 at 9:54 PM
Default Is piracy the big deal companies make it out to be? (Not an "Is piracy right" thread)
Before I start I will say, this is not about the legality or morality of piracy, just whether it is the big deal people make it into.

I personally believe it's not for a couple reasons.

1. Often times people who pirate will buy a game if it's good. They treat it almost as a trial play.

2. There aren't that many people who pirate, and would buy the game if they couldn't pirate it. Therefore making the effect on sales minimal.

3. I believe this is the most important point. When you deal with Digital downloads, there is no cost for packaging, effectively making it costless to distribute despite how many people buy it. The only cost is the initial creation of the product, which as long as the budget isn't ridiculously huge, will quickly make it's money back, and generate a profit. Compare this to a physical product, where if you steal it, you are actually costing the company money because the materials that go into the product cost money. Seeing as all illegal downloads are digital, it doesn't cost the company a dime for it to be illegally distributed.

So in conclusion, while it might not be right, I think that it is a minimal concern for software companies, and shouldn't generate this huge DRM overreaction.

So what do you think about this supposedly huge problem?
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The Great AntiJen
retired moderator
#2 Old 17th Feb 2013 at 11:11 PM
I can't comment on what games companies think but what I do know is, despite all the piracy they say is happening (and you don't need to look too far around the world to find it to be fair), many games companies still make a large profit year on year.

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Mad Poster
#3 Old 17th Feb 2013 at 11:19 PM
Quote: Originally posted by maxon
many games companies still make a large profit year on year.


I believe this is exactly the point that the OP is trying to make. Many companies already make a large profit, so why should a few thousand dollars of lost revenue really matter so much? Why must some of these companies go to such certain measures to prevent a few hundred "stealing" their product, when they've already made a large enough profit from the legal sales of their product.

Don't these companies have other things to worry about - such as actually delivering a product that people will actually want to purchase? Perhaps this alone could be one of the many factors that entices a person to illegally acquire a product.

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Theorist
#4 Old 17th Feb 2013 at 11:28 PM
It's not a matter of "why should this matter" as much as "you're using this as a justification/rationalization for these other things, is it the sort of threat you're suggesting it is, Large Game Companies?" in my mind. It's a Red Scare - it's not that piracy isn't an issue and should be ignored, it's that they raise the prices ("Oh, because of pirates") and stop selling things in stores ("Pirates") and stop even trying to make decent port for a PC ("Why should we, pirates.") etc. And I think it's reasonable to examine that. Companies talk about pirates as if it's the downfall of Western Civilization, because it justifies nearly any response they make. Which is sad, because copyright isn't an intrinsic right, it's an arbitrary monopoly allowed by government because it's useful as a way of supporting economic growth.
And all the maladies of the world burst forth from Pandora's cooch
#5 Old 17th Feb 2013 at 11:32 PM
I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here, but I don't think it's just a "few hundred people". In some countries, it is almost impossible, or very expensive, to get an original copy of the game. So they get a pirated copy. The game companies do not make any money off of it. True, game companies make a lot of profit. But that profit goes towards paying employees, covering costs, and research and development into new technology and games. Without a profit margin, many companies go bust. It happens.

But lets put it this way: Let's say you made a game. You put a lot of time and effort into making it. After a few years of hard work, it gets some recognition. Now, someone else comes along and steals the results of your hard work, and puts out pirated copies of your game, and makes money off of it. Would you like that? You do the work, they get the rewards? Doesn't seem right.

But I will give you that some companies do go overboard in their reactions to it, in that many of the ways they try to go after this problem usually have a negative effect of people who legitimately purchase the game. That's why we end up with games that require you to be online, or save in the cloud, or things of that nature. And I don't believe that ANY of these measures will actually stop piracy, only encourage clever people to find new work-arounds.
Theorist
#6 Old 17th Feb 2013 at 11:51 PM
No, it's not right. But two wrongs don't make a copyright and all that, or something. I'm sympathetic to people's argument "but we've got to make money!" in most things, what I'm unsympathetic with is "we must make the maximum possible amount of money by exercising all possible semi-ethical actions available to squeeze the last ounce of profit out of this... and then we're going to blame something else besides greed, y'know?
The Great AntiJen
retired moderator
#7 Old 18th Feb 2013 at 12:30 AM
I partially agree Butch though the profit is not to pay employees - that's part of the cost, taken off before profits are declared. Also, if there's one thing companies like EA are notorious for it's paying their employees badly and/or poor terms and conditions. No, profits go to shareholders, that's the point of profits. Some goes on investment but shareholders want the maximum return for their investment. The hysteria about pirating is partially down to shareholders pressuring companies to maximise profits (as Mistermook says). Still, can't walk down a (shopping) street in China without seeing pirate copies of western games. That's where the big pirating losses are, you are quite correct, but then, if you're Chinese, it's likely you can't afford to buy the actual game because it's far too expensive.

I no longer come over to MTS very often but if you would like to ask me a question then you can find me on tumblr or my own site tflc. TFLC has an archive of all my CC downloads.
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Inventor
#8 Old 18th Feb 2013 at 1:01 AM
Is piracy the big deal companies make it out to be? No. It isn't. True, the pirates are stealing the games/movies/music/whatever. But let's think of a different situation.

Sam buys a game from XYZ Games and both Sam and XYZ Games agree that Sam will pay for the game in 30 days. 30 days later, Sam doesn't pay. 60 days later, Sam doesn't pay. 90 days later, Sam doesn't pay. In fact, Sam never pays for the game, and XYZ Games is never able to collect the money. Is this not also a form of stealing? Yet companies accept that this occasionally happens and treat it as part of doing business. Yes, they try to stop it. But they don't waste more money doing so than they would have gained had the customer paid his bill in the first place.

Piracy should be treated the same way.

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Field Researcher
#9 Old 18th Feb 2013 at 1:05 AM
Piracy is a problem. You can't deny it. That companies have enough money already doesn't mean it is right then. I also don't believe that story of taking a pirated version to test and then buy the game. For testing there are demo's. No, once a pirated version is grabbed people hold it. Because it can't become any cheaper. However, sometimes you are pretty much driven into piracy. Why? Because some companies, like EA, have the great idea to come with nasty DRM, like securom and starforce. Newest thing now is to use steamworks (yes, steam is drm) or to use an own platform (think of battle.net, uplay, origin). All that DRM garbage doesn't work, but companies don;t learn.
With piracy there are actually 2 kind of problems. One problem is that alot of people think it isn't a problem and it's just a normal thing. Kids learn that pirated version are legal, while they aren't. People should start to let that dumb idea go. It isn't normal. It's stealing and it's the same as making a testdrive with a brand new car and never come back to the dealer.
The other problem is the sight of companies to it. How many times don't you read that if a company has financial problems it's due to piracy. While the real reason is bad management. They use piracy as a silly excuse to mask the real problem.
And all the maladies of the world burst forth from Pandora's cooch
#10 Old 18th Feb 2013 at 1:16 AM
Quote: Originally posted by PSDuckie
Is piracy the big deal companies make it out to be? No. It isn't. True, the pirates are stealing the games/movies/music/whatever. But let's think of a different situation.

Sam buys a game from XYZ Games and both Sam and XYZ Games agree that Sam will pay for the game in 30 days. 30 days later, Sam doesn't pay. 60 days later, Sam doesn't pay. 90 days later, Sam doesn't pay. In fact, Sam never pays for the game, and XYZ Games is never able to collect the money. Is this not also a form of stealing? Yet companies accept that this occasionally happens and treat it as part of doing business. Yes, they try to stop it. But they don't waste more money doing so than they would have gained had the customer paid his bill in the first place.

Piracy should be treated the same way.
In this kind of situation, though, XYZ Games would sell Sam's debt to a collection agency, and get their money that way, or at least a portion of it.
Field Researcher
#11 Old 18th Feb 2013 at 1:30 AM
Quote: Originally posted by candesco
Piracy is a problem. You can't deny it. That companies have enough money already doesn't mean it is right then. I also don't believe that story of taking a pirated version to test and then buy the game. For testing there are demo's.


I don't think I've ever seen a demo version of the sims or any of the EPs. So this is definitely not true for many games. And... I won't pay 30€ for something I don't know if I'll like.
Inventor
#12 Old 18th Feb 2013 at 1:55 AM
Quote: Originally posted by ButchSims
In this kind of situation, though, XYZ Games would sell Sam's debt to a collection agency, and get their money that way, or at least a portion of it.


I already stated in the situation that that didn't work.

Quote: Originally posted by candesco
The other problem is the sight of companies to it. How many times don't you read that if a company has financial problems it's due to piracy. While the real reason is bad management. They use piracy as a silly excuse to mask the real problem.


Agreed.

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The Nightmagic Legacy has ended. Read the whole thing!
Last of Her Kind has ended thanks to a dead computer.
Scholar
#13 Old 18th Feb 2013 at 3:33 AM
There are plenty of people who just straight up don't care. A lot of people have a sense of entitlement when it comes to media. "If I want it, then I should deserve to own it." Perhaps that could be curbed a bit if prices for games were lowered, but there will always be piracy, as people will always want things, and will always steal things they don't consider sacred.

As it can't really be discussed here, all I'm going to say is that there's no way in hell every member of this forum has legitimately bought every ep they own. IIRC, there was someone in the chat once who was downright shocked at the implication that everyone payed money for every ep they owned, and called us all diehard fans.

But, in a way, I totally understand it. Paying hundreds of dollars for some digital barbie dolls- not to mention all the hardware you'd need to actually use any of it- does seem kind of ridiculous.

You could buy whatever useless shit you wanted with that money, and maybe even some not so useless shit.

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Forum Resident
#14 Old 18th Feb 2013 at 3:57 AM
i am not saying that it is the right thing to do but i know of people that have obtained illegal copies of games for the purpose of making unofficial patches and updates but they didn't for the fact that software companies for the most part are too lazy to fix things themselves

on the other hand there are those out there that use illegal copies of stuff to make money at the expense of everyone else,so in short people have there own reasons for doing that sort of thing
Theorist
#15 Old 19th Feb 2013 at 4:46 PM
I think piracy is a problem, but not as big as software and media companies make it out to be. I agree with your point #2. If even a small percentage of people who pirate would not have purchased a licensed copy in the first place, then revenue losses by software companies is over-exaggerated. It's probably just easier for a software company to use software piracy as an excuse to their investors for why they didn't meet quarterly revenue expectations.

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Theorist
#16 Old 20th Feb 2013 at 5:10 PM
I suppose one of the reasons companies are worried is that if they don't "make a big deal" out of it then more and more people will be tempted to do it. People will see other people getting games (or whatever media it might be) for free without any consequences and think, "If they aren't paying, then why should I? They're getting away with it so I should too."

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The Great AntiJen
retired moderator
#17 Old 20th Feb 2013 at 5:18 PM
Well, they're indulging in Slippery Slope if that is what they're thinking.

I no longer come over to MTS very often but if you would like to ask me a question then you can find me on tumblr or my own site tflc. TFLC has an archive of all my CC downloads.
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Top Secret Researcher
#18 Old 20th Feb 2013 at 8:11 PM Last edited by hugbug993 : 20th Feb 2013 at 8:22 PM.
Ever heard of WildTangent? It offers games - usually ones that only last a few hours - in both a demo and to buy. The demo isn't just one hour either: it stops when you turn the game off/something else turns it off, so you can play the entire game for free if you want to. There are several companies that create these short games and some of them have for years. The games aren't that bad either (for the most part), so you can tell that they put some effort into making them. Gogii games even includes production notes and concept art.
But since they're continuing to create these games, they're obviously making money, even though people can easily play the games and decide not to buy. They also have to share the profits, and they're still making money.

My point is, there is at least one legitimate market based on giving consumers the game for free and letting them decide if they want to pay for it. If people were all the kind to never pay for a game when they have the option not to, then that sort of system would never work. My guess is that piracy is similar to that system, except less legal. While piracy might cost the company a small amount, it's probably not going to be anything significant.

I also took a look at a pirate site, which is apparently one of the larger sites. It was surprisingly easy to find for an illegal venture. Anyway, their top-downloaded PC game - Subway Surfers - has about 11,000 downloads. The game's site says that there have been 150,000,000+ downloads. If consumers were paying to get the game, then that's less than 0.1% of profits lost, assuming that none of the pirates decided to pay. The second one is Far Cry 3, at around 7,000 downloads. The company says that 4.5 million copies of the PC game have been sold (assuming I'm reading it right). Skyrim is also at about 7,000. The total number of sales is 10 million and about 14% of that is PC sales. (Xbox sales are 59% of the total figure and the pirated number of Xbox copies from that site is about 60).

I have a few guesses about why companies might be losing money: poor customer service (like EA) gets the customers angry at them and they don't want to buy games anymore; poor management means that their money is getting wasted; they drive off talented programmers (like EA? What did happen to the original programmers of The Sims 1 and 2, anyway?)/underpay them/don't give them any incentives or even penalize them for improving the quality of the product; and possibly poor advertisement.
Or maybe they're doing something similar to what movie studios do and using the profits from their successful games to cover the losses from games that tanked. Thus, they don't have to pay the shareholders as much because they're reporting fewer profits, though they do have to come up with an excuse for why the profits are so small when so many people have copies of the game. Piracy is an external factor that can't be controlled, so it's obviously not the fault of the company if it's causing the profits to go down. Plus, it explains why so many people have copies of the game, since the economy tanking wouldn't explain that.
Or maybe they're kicking up a fuss to get attention. That's always possible.

Anyway, those are my thoughts.
Test Subject
#19 Old 20th Feb 2013 at 9:12 PM
While piracy does occur, many of these game companies blow it way out of proportion. And they do it to try to cover up the fact that they are failing because of a combination of poor decision making, greed and ego. Meanwhile, Indy game developers are becoming wildly successful because they are turning out less expensive higher quality products and are willing to listen to their customers, whereas most of the major companies just want to rush out a buggy game and sell it for much more than it's worth to start making money as quickly as possible and couldn't care less about their customers.

In fact, the way they keep trying to force their DRM crap on everyone, treating their legally paying customers like criminals, it makes this piracy business seem like nothing more than a modern day witch hunt. The video game industry's version of the Red Scare.

Makes me wonder if they've become totally paranoid about the whole issue. If they go outside in the morning and see that their trashcan has been turned over, instead of blaming a dog or a raccoon, do they blame pirates? Do you think they blame pirates for poor gas mileage or the rising cost of milk? Here, wear this tinfoil hat or the pirates will steal your brainwaves!

Quote: Originally posted by candesco
How many times don't you read that if a company has financial problems it's due to piracy. While the real reason is bad management. They use piracy as a silly excuse to mask the real problem.


Quoted for truth.
Instructor
#20 Old 20th Feb 2013 at 9:33 PM
Field Researcher
#21 Old 25th Jun 2013 at 6:07 AM
Well copyright laws make my blood boil so I would say no. I understand why copyright laws exist but in many cases, I do not see how committing copyright infringement is wrong. I don't think you should pirate for money (I was even done in that way. I did not know a DVD I bought from Ebay was pirated. I could understand why one would pirate in that case because the DVD wasn't out until years later but if this is the case, make it a quality disc) but I would think generally the people who pirate aren't trying to hurt anybody. If the game is good enough they will most likely buy it. I know with me, I try to buy songs when I can but if I don't like the artist enough, I'm just going to find a way to download it. I don't just have money to throw away. Now are games as important to have as music...definitely not but they are good for relaxing when you've had a hectic day.
Personally I can honestly say I've bought every Sims game I've ever owned but I would not look down on people who didn't. It's basically supporting corporate America since we all feel the same about EA. However, pirating all the time is just lazy. If you've got money, earn your game but once in a while it is ok to commit piracy.
Instructor
#22 Old 25th Jun 2013 at 7:11 AM
Quote: Originally posted by ButchSims
But lets put it this way: Let's say you made a game. You put a lot of time and effort into making it.
After a few years of hard work, it gets some recognition. Now, someone else comes along and steals the results of your hard work, and puts out pirated copies of your game, and makes money off of it.
Would you like that? You do the work, they get the rewards? Doesn't seem right.

While this might be true, in most cases, most people who 'pirate' something aren't making any money from it, nor are they re-distributing it.
They are basically using it for their own personal use.
Now, that doesn't make it "any more right". (my bad grammar is intentional)

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Test Subject
#23 Old 25th Jun 2013 at 10:37 AM Last edited by MartG : 25th Jun 2013 at 10:40 AM. Reason: spelling
Is it a problem?
Yes absolutely
Is it as big a problem as software companies make out?
absolutely not.

They always claim every pirated game is a lost sale, which anyone with more than one brain cell knows is complete nonsense, and as others have said many people will try a pirated game and then go and buy it if they like it.
I've done that myself with games that don't release demos.

And then there's the case of games people buy that suddenly stop working for no apparent reason, I'm looking at you steam
I currently play a pirate version of a game I own because steam tech support is worse than useless.

P.S. I sometimes think EA deserves to have their software pirated (I have a real copy of Sims 3)
because the companies sickening greed and complete disdain for their customers and any post sale issues that might arise.
Née whiterider
retired moderator
#24 Old 25th Jun 2013 at 10:54 AM
Quote: Originally posted by Digitalchaos
most people who 'pirate' something aren't making any money from it, nor are they re-distributing it.
The majority of people who pirate are redistributing, in fact, because they are using P2P. P2P means that you upload while you download; and depending on where the person is downloading from and what their take is on netiquette, they may be obliged to keep uploading long after they've finished downloading. That's not to say I agree with the current state of copyright law, but there are very few people who "just" pirate for personal use, even if that's their primary concern.

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Field Researcher
#25 Old 25th Jun 2013 at 2:49 PM
Quote: Originally posted by pinketamine
I don't think I've ever seen a demo version of the sims or any of the EPs. So this is definitely not true for many games. And... I won't pay 30€ for something I don't know if I'll like.


There is/was that standalone CAS... I wonder if someone actually paid just to test the create a sim feature...
 
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