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Field Researcher
Original Poster
#1 Old 25th Jul 2007 at 2:25 AM
Default In Imigration, Two Virgina Counties Say Nay
Two Virgina counties passed legislation that would allow police officers to check imigration status of all arrested individuals if probable cause exists. It also gives the county the right to deny public benifits that are not state or federally mandated (i.e. Library access) two illegal imigrents. As quoted from The Washington Times:

Quote:
"No more — no more tolerance for criminal illegal aliens who commit assault and battery, stalking, indecent exposure, driving while intoxicated or hit-and-run because these crimes aren't supposedly serious enough to warrant even notifying the immigration authorities," he said. "No more protection for illegal aliens who attempt to obtain taxpayer-funded services, which they are not entitled to receive in order to make their continued unlawful presence in the county more comfortable. No more selective enforcement of our laws in order to make it easier for vast numbers of illegal aliens to maintain in our midst."

-The Washington Times


Board Members stress that these measures only affect illegal aliens, and that nateralized (sp) citizens are not targeted by these bills.

The Debate: Is this something that more communities should take up in wake of the recent failure of the imigration bill in the US Senate? Or is this promoting racism and xenophobia?

I believe that we should not pay for these people who, by nature of living in our country, are breaking laws. I feel that people who cross our boarders illegally are thumbing their noses at people living in places like South Eastern Asia (which is in an even worse state then Mexico) or anywhere in the world who are trying to come here legally and have waited in long lines to get in.

Mexico has some of the toughest imigration laws to prevent people from America who are trying to escape crimes from crossing the boarder, yet we are allowing dangerous gangs such as MS 13 to enter the country with no legal retribution. In fact, we give them tax payed benifits such as public pools and libraries without any contribution from them.
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Top Secret Researcher
#2 Old 25th Jul 2007 at 2:38 AM
Without any contribution from them? I usually shy away from the Debate Room, but I had to respond to that. Guess who was probably constructing the public pool and the library? And probably doing a good job and being reliable workers? Yep, illegal immigrants. Most of them are not gang members, they're members of society.

*backs away slowly*

Test Subject
#3 Old 25th Jul 2007 at 3:10 AM
Quote: Originally posted by Daisie
Without any contribution from them? I usually shy away from the Debate Room, but I had to respond to that. Guess who was probably constructing the public pool and the library? And probably doing a good job and being reliable workers? Yep, illegal immigrants. Most of them are not gang members, they're members of society.

*backs away slowly*

Don't back away,you're right I think I get tired of hearing all of the stories about all illegal immigrants are gang memebers,rapists,etc. Most are hard working people who just want a better life. Honestly, you are more likely to be killed or raped by an American citizen.In case no one has noticed,our society loves violence.
Mad Poster
#4 Old 25th Jul 2007 at 3:15 AM
What annoys me about illegal immigration more than the unpaid taxes and living under the law is the stereotypes. I don't like the idea that every unregistered immigrant is a poor, underprivileged gang member hopping the fence from Mexico to the U.S. with their family in tow. Contrary to popular belief, not many illegal immigrants are gang members or bad people- they pull their weight in society, whether it be at a high-paying corporation or at a low-end fast food restaurant. I see a lot of interviews on CNN where politicians talk about illegal immigrants and how they're not pulling their weight, but I think they are, in a vague way- pulling your weight in society by contributing and helping others is entirely different from pulling your weight by becoming a legal citizen and paying your taxes.

I half-wonder how many illegal immigrants intend to take a citizenship test once they study up and get on their feet after arriving in the U.S- perhaps they're just getting used to their new surroundings and the law happens to nab them before they can adjust. Sure, I think we could tighten up immigration laws, but just because you sneak into a country illegally doesn't mean that you're a bad person.

Do I dare disturb the universe?
.
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Theorist
#5 Old 25th Jul 2007 at 3:40 AM
The fact that they are in the country illegally tells us they don't respect the law. They are knowingly violating Federal law, that makes them, by definition, criminals. How does that make them a good person? We already have a process that an immigrant can use to become a US Citizen, perfectly legally. They choose to disregard that process, they would rather skip the line...I wonder, how many of those good, hard working illegals that simply want to make a better life for themselves even tried to follow the rules? I bet that number is below 1% of all illegal immigrants. I don't feel sorry for illegals in those counties at all. They are ILLEGAL. They aren't supposed to be there. If they were, they would have their green cards. They would have resident alien status, or student visas, or some other LEGAL way to be in the United States. Instead, they made a choice to disregard American law, they made a choice to sneak in, instead of following the rules. If it were a movie theater and they snuck in, they would be thrown out...If they got caught sneaking into a sporting event, they would be thrown out...yet, we are supposed to permit people sneaking into the country, in violation of the law, when like the movies and sporting events, there are legal ways to gain entrance? For the movies and sporting events, you buy a ticket...for America, you immigrate LEGALLY, following the process the law dictates. Its really not a hard concept. Its hard for me to accept the argument that illegal immigrants are good honest people, when the very fact they are in America illegally reveals their dishonesty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obama on ABC's This Week, discussing Obamacare
What it's saying is, is that we're not going to have other people carrying your burdens for you anymore
umm...Isn't having other people carry your medical burden exactly what national health care is?
Test Subject
#6 Old 25th Jul 2007 at 3:52 AM
I don't know exactly where I stand when it comes to immigration issue, partly because of debating which stance is more ethical. On one hand, it seems that a lot of illegal immigrants come seeking a better life, and a lot of them might even work harder than American citizens and for lower prices. I saw a news special on CNN about some illegal immigrants working steady jobs, paying taxes and getting no returns, and living nice, "nonviolent" lives. If they're able to live good lives and abide by American law, why deport them? They deserve to become citizens.

But then, there's that other thing that stabs me. Is their situation really so bad that they have to enter the country illegally in front of other immigrants who might be waiting to enter legally? And should breaking the law, even as a means of helping yourself and your family, be excused for the sake of morality? In that case, won't we let impoverished families steal food from the stores because they need it so desperately? (I don't mean that illegal immigrants steal, I just suck at analogies xP)

On another hand, there are some who come and take advantage of "American hospitality", or whatever it is people call it. There are some who have no respect for American law, do not plan on learning English if they already don't know it, and "demand" extra services (I say this not generally, but my mother is sometimes yelled at by Spanish-speaking only customers at her job because she cannot speak Spanish). And in another case, a mother in my own neighborhood wanted to "sue" my school district because they would not put the high school exit exam in Spanish.

On a third hand, could some people be taking advantage of them? It's probably not the best place to discuss, but on yahoo we were discussing the immigrant issue, and a response came from someone that keeping illegal immigrants was a good thing, because they could continue to exploit them by paying them very little for hard work. In that case, should it passed for their own "protection"?

I don't really think of it as a race issue, and it sometimes bothers me when people look at it exclusively with accusations of racism. Last year we had a class discussion about the immigrant bill and a few kids gave their thoughts on it; "It's racist, the white people just want to get rid of the Mexicans". Which I find very, very annoying.
Test Subject
#7 Old 25th Jul 2007 at 3:53 AM
Quote: Originally posted by davious
The fact that they are in the country illegally tells us they don't respect the law. They are knowingly violating Federal law, that makes them, by definition, criminals. How does that make them a good person? We already have a process that an immigrant can use to become a US Citizen, perfectly legally. They choose to disregard that process, they would rather skip the line...I wonder, how many of those good, hard working illegals that simply want to make a better life for themselves even tried to follow the rules? I bet that number is below 1% of all illegal immigrants. I don't feel sorry for illegals in those counties at all. They are ILLEGAL. They aren't supposed to be there. If they were, they would have their green cards. They would have resident alien status, or student visas, or some other LEGAL way to be in the United States. Instead, they made a choice to disregard American law, they made a choice to sneak in, instead of following the rules. If it were a movie theater and they snuck in, they would be thrown out...If they got caught sneaking into a sporting event, they would be thrown out...yet, we are supposed to permit people sneaking into the country, in violation of the law, when like the movies and sporting events, there are legal ways to gain entrance? For the movies and sporting events, you buy a ticket...for America, you immigrate LEGALLY, following the process the law dictates. Its really not a hard concept. Its hard for me to accept the argument that illegal immigrants are good honest people, when the very fact they are in America illegally reveals their dishonesty.

I'm sorry but I disagree. If I lived in Mexico...in fact I'm willing to bet if you lived ine Mexico, you would do the same thing as well.I really think this immigration issue is race..plain and simple.The reason I think it's race is because we have illegal immigrants from all over the world but we only focus on the ones from Mexico.
Field Researcher
Original Poster
#8 Old 25th Jul 2007 at 4:01 AM
MS 13 according to Wikipedia

Quote:
Former gang member Brenda Paz said that MS-13 is well structured, with multiple leaders, and that the gang's goal was to become the top gang in the United States.[3]


Quote:
According to The Washington Times, MS 13 "is thought to have established a major smuggling center" in Mexico.[8] There are reports that MS 13 members have been sent to Arizona to target border guards and Minuteman Project volunteers.[9][10].


These are the people helping these nice hard working illegal imigrants. As Davious said, they don't respect our laws for legal citizenship. Furthermore:

Nationality Laws

Quote:
To become a naturalized United States citizen, one must be at least eighteen years of age at the time of filing, a legal permanent resident of the United States, and have had a status of a legal permanent resident in the United States for five years less 90 days before they apply (this requirement is reduced to three years less 90 days if they (a) acquired legal permanent resident status and (b) have been married to and living with a citizen for the past three years.) They must have been physically present for at least 30 months of 60 months prior to the date of filing their application. Also during those 60 months if the legal permanent resident was outside of the U.S. for a continuous period of 6 months or more they are disqualified from naturalizing (certain exceptions apply for those continuous periods of six months to 1 year). They must be a "person of good moral character"[2], and must pass a test on United States history and government. Most applicants must also have a working knowledge of the English language (there are exceptions for long-resident older applicants and those with mental or physical disabilities), although this requirement is not intended to be an onerous one, since the test requires that they read and write simple sentences in English, such as "The United States is a democracy".


I took the liberty of bolding the amount of times the word "Legal" came up in the exerpt, most of which revolve around residences. I also noted the exerpt that they must be of good character. Since, by virtue of the fact they are illegal, they cannot become naturalized citizens while living here. If they wanted to be natural citizens, they need to apply from their own country, not after coming here illegally.
Theorist
#9 Old 25th Jul 2007 at 4:02 AM
Modestgurl, how would you then explain the 108.7 million Mexicans that haven't, as of yet, felt the need to abandon their country? Nor have you explained why that means that even if you are one of those persons that feel they have to abandon your country, that you have to enter a new country illegally, instead of doing it the legal way. I don't care if all 108.7 million Mexicans wanted to come to America, as long as they did it the legal way. And, making it solely about Mexico, as you did, is just playing the race card. Nowhere in my post did I mention Mexico, Mexicans, Latinos, or any other ethnic group. You want to make it about Mexicans, thats your deal, not mine. I was referring to every illegal, regardless of their country of origin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obama on ABC's This Week, discussing Obamacare
What it's saying is, is that we're not going to have other people carrying your burdens for you anymore
umm...Isn't having other people carry your medical burden exactly what national health care is?
Mad Poster
#10 Old 25th Jul 2007 at 4:09 AM
Quote: Originally posted by davious
The fact that they are in the country illegally tells us they don't respect the law. They are knowingly violating Federal law, that makes them, by definition, criminals. How does that make them a good person?


Just because a person is a criminal doesn't mean that they're a bad person. Think of all those people in jail who weren't believed by the jury, had a bad lawyer, or any other number of problems that caused them to be wrongly accused and wrongly charged. You can fire back and say that this doesn't happen often, but the fact that it does happen proves that not every person who falls under the label of criminal is rightly named thus. Yes, they're knowingly violating federal law, but perhaps they have a good reason. Perhaps they don't speak English and can't understand a lot of the citizenship test material... perhaps they haven't gotten on their feet in America and can't pay the taxes that come naturally when you become a citizen... they could have any host of problems. Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King Jr. knowingly violated federal law... do you consider them criminals? What makes illegal immigrants so different? Being a criminal doesn't make you a bad person... sometimes, a person has a good reason to break the law.

Do I dare disturb the universe?
.
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Field Researcher
Original Poster
#11 Old 25th Jul 2007 at 4:25 AM
Quote: Originally posted by RabidAngel77
Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King Jr. knowingly violated federal law... do you consider them criminals?


Given the facts that several constitutional amendments and supreme court cases had over turned segragtion laws by the time Rosa Parks and MLK began their peaceful protests, I highly doubt that it was federal (laws legislated from Washington D.C. regaurding the whole country) laws they violated.

In Rosa Parks bus seat incident, it was the rules of a private firm contracted by the city (local Laws). MLK stressed to remain with in the law at all times during his peaceful protests. The bus boycott and the sit-ins were protected at the time by the right to free assembly, and where denied by buisness men in the latters case. Neither ever violated federal law, or for that matter, local law.
Test Subject
#12 Old 25th Jul 2007 at 4:30 AM
Quote: Originally posted by RabidAngel77
Just because a person is a criminal doesn't mean that they're a bad person. Think of all those people in jail who weren't believed by the jury, had a bad lawyer, or any other number of problems that caused them to be wrongly accused and wrongly charged. You can fire back and say that this doesn't happen often, but the fact that it does happen proves that not every person who falls under the label of criminal is rightly named thus. Yes, they're knowingly violating federal law, but perhaps they have a good reason. Perhaps they don't speak English and can't understand a lot of the citizenship test material... perhaps they haven't gotten on their feet in America and can't pay the taxes that come naturally when you become a citizen... they could have any host of problems. Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King Jr. knowingly violated federal law... do you consider them criminals? What makes illegal immigrants so different? Being a criminal doesn't make you a bad person... sometimes, a person has a good reason to break the law.

Thanks for pointing that out. If you think about it, why should we even harshly punish people who come into the country to do the harsh jobs that Americans don't want to do.I understand they have legal ways to come into this country but they suck. Our whole immigration system needs work.I just find it sad that we are judging their character for doing something that most of us would do in the same situation.If America was like Mexico, I'm willing to bet most of us would be trying to cross in Canada illegally.
Mad Poster
#13 Old 25th Jul 2007 at 4:36 AM
Quote: Originally posted by Modestgurl88
Thanks for pointing that out. If you think about it, why should we even harshly punish people who come into the country to do the harsh jobs that Americans don't want to do.I understand they have legal ways to come into this country but they suck. Our whole immigration system needs work.I just find it sad that we are judging their character for doing something that most of us would do in the same situation.If America was like Mexico, I'm willing to bet most of us would be trying to cross in Canada illegally.


Exactly. If we reworked the immigration system and didn't make immigrants jump through so many hoops just to become a U.S. citizen, maybe we wouldn't have such a problem on our hands. It's human nature to do whatever it takes to get out of a terrible situation, which is what some people undergo in Mexico- I'm guessing that not many of us at S2C have been faced with similar problems, so we don't know what it's like, and thusly we shouldn't judge. All they want is a better life.

Do I dare disturb the universe?
.
| tumblr | My TS3 Photos |
Top Secret Researcher
#14 Old 25th Jul 2007 at 4:41 AM
*tip-toeing back in*

What is it, exactly, about Mexico that everyone apparently wants to escape? Lack of jobs/money? That's something I've never quite heard explained, and it's just a question - no implications or connotations or anything.

I agree completely that there needs to be some consideration for (and not judgment of) actual people, not just laws and generalizations. hszmv or davious, what would happen to everyone who came here illegally but managed to make a meaningful life and contributions and have family and friends here, if we deported them? This sounds totally, ridiculously cheesy, but immigrants are people too.

Theorist
#15 Old 25th Jul 2007 at 4:52 AM
The only reason they have to do the harsh jobs nobody else wants to do is BECAUSE they aren't legal. They HAVE to do those jobs, because other jobs require legal documentation, file their IRS forms, and provide documentation for the legal status of all their employees...Documentation they can't provide because they are illegal. Their illegal status necessitates having to do those jobs, because those jobs don't require or don't bother with documentation. If they were legal aliens, they would be able to get better jobs, because they would have legal documentation that the US Government needs for tax purposes. There is a means for people from other countries to get jobs that more people want, its called becoming a LEGAL immigrant. Its called going through the LEGAL process to become a US Citizen. All 4 of my Grandparents didn't have a problem figuring that concept out. None of them spoke a lick of English when they arrived on shore at Ellis Island, yet somehow managed to become US Citizens, and managed to learn how to speak English. They managed to overcome their language barrier, followed the rules, they managed to do things the way the law says they should be done. To claim that Mexicans (Again, I didn't bring them up, you people did) need to be illegal immigrants to the US because they don't speak English is rubbish, its nothing but a poor excuse. Why do you think there are Community Ed classes in pretty much every city in the nation teaching English as a second language classes? You don't have to speak English to enter the country as a legal immigrant...

Daisie, perhaps those well educated illegal immigrants who get kicked back to their own country could try to make their country a better place to live, so they don't feel the need to abandon it. Perhaps if they tried a little harder to improve the living conditions in their own country, they wouldn't feel the need to illegally enter the US. (keep in mind, Mexico, along with many other countries, deports illegals, so we would just be doing likewise, not doing anything other countries aren't doing) My beef is why its all of a sudden ok to do it illegally. This country was built on the hard work of immigrants, millions of immigrants sweat went into building America to what it is. However, for the most part, they went through the proper channels. They registered, they did whatever they had to do to become legal citizens of this country...My Grandparents had to work very hard to earn their citizenship, and I am sure that applies to virtually everyone on this board whose relatives came over through Ellis Island. Whats the difference? Most of us are here because our relatives did it the right way. Most of us are here because our parents, grandparents, great grandparents, whatever worked their asses off, learned English, paid their taxes, and became honest American citizens. It makes it very hard to be an honest American citizen when you are in the country illegally to begin with. This thread isn't about stopping immigrants from getting jobs in those two counties, or getting other benefits, its about ILLEGAL immigrants. People always seem to forget that there are two kinds of immigrants, legal and illegal. This only applies to illegals.

If I broke into your home, and you came home and found me on your couch watching TV, do you feel that I then have a right to stay there, that I should be able to eat your food, that I can have one of your beds to sleep in? NO. You would call the cops and have me arrested, because I broke the law when I trespassed on your property uninvited, and broke into your home. So why shouldn't someone who breaks into the country be expected to get the same treatment? If on the other hand, you are ok with me trespassing on your property, please PM me your address...my place isn't so great, maybe I will crash at your place instead, since you have no problem with people illegally being somewhere...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obama on ABC's This Week, discussing Obamacare
What it's saying is, is that we're not going to have other people carrying your burdens for you anymore
umm...Isn't having other people carry your medical burden exactly what national health care is?
#16 Old 25th Jul 2007 at 5:05 AM
I can't seem to understand how someone would be okay with someone living in this county illegally.

Quote: Originally posted by Modestgurl88
I get tired of hearing all of the stories about all illegal immigrants are gang memebers,rapists,etc. Most are hard working people who just want a better life. Honestly, you are more likely to be killed or raped by an American citizen.In case no one has noticed,our society loves violence.
Today 08:38 PM

Ok...I have to strongly disagree with you on this. Yes, they are looking for a 'better' life, BUT, if they REALLY wanted a better life, don't you think they would get off their lazy bum and do it the legal way? If you wanted a better life, if you "lived in Mexico and came to a different country" would you want to just come and break the law? If you really wanted a better life you would have done things the legal way.

In my opinion, Immigrants should have to pay taxes, work, etc. They should have to do everything that we have to do. If I wanted a better life for myself, I would at least make a bit of effort to do things the legal way instead of doing things illegally, it just doesn't make sense to me how these people get these ideas in their heads that it's OK to come into a country illegally and get off by not paying taxes, yet getting all of the benefits that a legal citizen would receive. It angers me, in all honesty.

I'm not really sure on how much the illegals commit crimes, and probably not as much as Americans, but the fact that they're in this country illegally is enough of a crime for them to deserve to be punished and thrown out.
#17 Old 25th Jul 2007 at 6:02 AM
From the origional post:
Quote:
Two Virgina counties passed legislation that would allow police officers to check imigration status of all arrested individuals if probable cause exists.


The legislation is allowing police to check immigration status of individuals that are already arrested! I don't understand how people can get upset over this. They are already arrested, so they very likely already broke, or were involved in breaking a law of some sort. I don't understand how someone can point to these already arrested (for things other than immigrating) Illegal immigrants and hold up the "they're good people" sign? That really bothers me.

According to the Department of Homeland Security there were more than 447 thousand NEW LEGAL immigrants in the year 2006. Add to that the more than 819 thousand immigrants that had their status changed to permanent resident, and you have over 1266 thousand people becoming legal immigrants in one year alone. If those 1266 thousand people can do it, I don't understand what's so hard for those who choose to do it illegally.

Quote:
Contrary to popular belief, not many illegal immigrants are gang members or bad people- they pull their weight in society, whether it be at a high-paying corporation or at a low-end fast food restaurant.

Uhm, by the very laws that make them Illegal immigrants, they would not, and should not be holding either of those jobs. For the last 20 years companies are required to prove the citizen ship of their employees. Not doing so leads to hefty penalties, risking their own necks.

The whole Illegal immigrants issue is something I've dealt with from my early childhood. I was a little white girl growing up in southern Arizona. The America-Mexico border was about half an hour drive from my house. The public schools I went to were at least 85% Hispanic. Most of the children at those schools were children of illegal immigrants. Because they were born in America, they themselves were citizens. Some people are quick to throw the "race card" in when this topic comes up, which upsets me. It's my personal opinion that many are quick to throw in the race card because they want to take focus off of the real issue. This isn't a race issue, this is a legal issue.

I was the minority growing up. I laughed my butt off at white people who couldn't correctly pronounce the Hispanic or Indian names for streets and complexes in our city. Heck, I had telemarketers that couldn't even pronounce the city I lived in. (Tucson for those who are wondering). I about died with embarrassment when my father pronounced a boys name (JEE - zus) instead of (hay-SOOS).

I nearly flunked my senior year social studies class because the teacher taught most of it in Spanish for the sake of the non English speaking students. Myself, and two other students had to just read our text book while he actually taught the lessons to the other students. Do you know how boring it is to read a social studies text book? But more over, feel like a total outcast in your own country, just so these Illegal Immigrant parents wouldn't complain about the lack of education for their child who doesn't want to learn English?

One day in that class the teacher brought up the whole cops asking to see papers debate. He dared to single me out and say he bet my family never got pulled over because of our race. Luckily just the week before my father had been pulled over because of his race. My father worked on Mobile Homes (not the most desirable job in the Arizona summers) and because of that drove a large work truck usually with a canvas sheet over the bed. They pulled him over and searched under that canvas sheet, they figured he was smuggling illegal immigrants.

That was then quickly followed up with a "Man, I hate this country, Mexico is so much better." rampage. If you hate it so much, then why the hell don't you go back to your own country?

I apologize, I have gone off on a bunny trail. When it comes to emergencies, I believe all people need to be helped regardless of their status in our country. That is something man kind owes it's self. But when it comes to the other things that are not life or death, I prefer every one would abide by the law. After all, it is the law of the country they want to be a part of. How can you disrespect the very structure that holds it together and still claim to want to be here?
Test Subject
#18 Old 25th Jul 2007 at 6:14 AM
Illegal immigrants are just that: ILLEGAL. They are NOT supposed to be here, and are NOT documented. Now, I am well aware of the fact that most illegal immigrants are just normal people who just want a better life. I highly doubt that very many are gang members, but that's just the part that we hear about because it makes the most noise. My problem is the fact that the documented, taxpaying citizens get to pick up the slack for the illegals. I live in southern California, and my experience is that illegals (the local ones, at least), rarely have insurance or health care. Which means that in the case of an car accident, for example, the legal citizen gets to fight all the insurance companies and whatnot (I don't know that much about the system). That's just unfair. Legal citizens should NOT have to pay for that sort of thing. My thoughts on this are that if people are actually going to go through some effort to throw illegals out, LET THEM!! It's not like they won't be back next week anyway. Or outbreed us, which is another story entirely.

And this is just my opinion, but I don't think it's very healthy for our economy that illegals are the backbone of our labor forces. Not going into detail on that one though...


EDIT:
*gives Shenanigans a hug*
Thank you.
I couldn't have said it better myself. I agree with you completely.
Lab Assistant
#19 Old 25th Jul 2007 at 6:23 AM
Quote: Originally posted by Daisie
What is it, exactly, about Mexico that everyone apparently wants to escape? Lack of jobs/money? That's something I've never quite heard explained, and it's just a question - no implications or connotations or anything.


Well for a start, I chat sometimes with a Mexican guy who plays the sims, and they still haven't got Seasons But seriously, often times it's about being able to give your family a far better life (because you can earn a lot more - relative to Mexican currency) and send your kids to the better schools, escape crime etc.

Quote: Originally posted by Charmy
Ok...I have to strongly disagree with you on this. Yes, they are looking for a 'better' life, BUT, if they REALLY wanted a better life, don't you think they would get off their lazy bum and do it the legal way?


Well, I looked at what's entailed for me, an Australian, to get into the US legally.

Firstly, I need an embassy appointment. The US website itself says that there is a potentially long waiting period for Australia. How long that period in Mexico would be is anyone's guess. Not to mention that the embassy is in Canberra, which is quite a distance from here - Brisbane. The US embassy in Mexico is in Mexico City, so one needs to get there first - by taking days off work etc.

Secondly, to get a working visa, the three things required to lodge an application would cost a fair bit - application fees, passport, issuance fees. All up, the application process - including the application fees and passport would cost me $US1000, and doesn't include issuance fees.

Translated to Mexican currency at current exchange rates, that means that just applying would cost 10,835.00 MXN. This is in stark contrast to the minimum wage in Mexico which is 1,557-1,658 MXN. So, if someone were to fail to spend any of their wages on anything whatsoever, for 7 years, they could save up and come to the US.

Thirdly, if I wanted to get into the US to work legally, I would need to be sponsored by a relative or employer - so I've got to find work before I get there - which would probably cost a bit in communications if nothing else.

Now, these sorts of things are fine for people who have plenty of money, plenty of education, but are not likely to be possible for those who aren't on top dollar. Laziness doesn't really factor into it.

And the reality is that a lot of the American economy relies on Mexican slave labour in order to keep prices low, and to keep upper class Americans in the splendour to which they are accustomed - with maids and other cheap labour.
#20 Old 25th Jul 2007 at 6:43 AM
Quote: Originally posted by calalily
... the American economy relies on Mexican slave labour ...


Oye... I sure hope the choice of words here wasn't intentional. The whole definition of "slave" is belonging to someone else, being their property, not having any freedoms.

A long time ago, people were kidnapped, treated brutally, and brought across an ocean to be America's slaves. I'm willing to bet that not a single one of those illegal immigrants has someone they must call "master", they're not being wiped left with bleeding flesh wounds. They came here willingly. To equate the work they do with the work of a true slave... That's a far stretch in my opinion.
Lab Assistant
#21 Old 25th Jul 2007 at 7:03 AM
Quote: Originally posted by Shenanigans
Oye... I sure hope the choice of words here wasn't intentional. The whole definition of "slave" is belonging to someone else, being their property, not having any freedoms.


It certainly was intentional. Some treatment of Mexican immigrant workers is slavery - they have their passports confiscated, and work for little money, classified as slavery by law enforcement agencies.

Taco's tomato pickers on slave wages
Forum Resident
#22 Old 25th Jul 2007 at 7:40 AM
One thing that always bothers me about these immigration debates is that nobody brings up the issue of just how many of those illegal aliens are RELATIVES of American citizens.

That's a huge issue! When you talk about rounding up thousands of illegals and (as some pundits have suggested) stuffing them in cattle cars and shipping them back to Mexico, there are Americans listening to that and thinking, "Not with my Grandma, you won't!"

I live in southern California. I know a lot of Mexicans. I have them on both sides of me and across the street from me. They all have relatives who can't speak English who, after a little conversation with them, you find out are illegal.

All this stuff from blowhards like Lou Dobbs (who I used to admire) about getting tough with illegals is just a bunch of garbage unless you can figure out a way to fight off the one of the largest minority groups of voting citizens in the United States who will almost certainly take it VERY personally when it affects their lives in such a direct way.

God knows, if somebody had talked about treating my grandmother the way some people talk about treating illegal Mexicans, you'd have to tie me down.

Build a wall, a great big, big wall. If we would just actually do something to limit people coming here illegally we wouldn't have all this extremeness and hatred.
Scholar
#23 Old 25th Jul 2007 at 8:39 AM
Quote: Originally posted by hszmv
Two Virgina counties passed legislation that would allow police officers to check imigration status of all arrested individuals if probable cause exists. It also gives the county the right to deny public benifits that are not state or federally mandated (i.e. Library access) two illegal imigrents. As quoted from The Washington Times:

Board Members stress that these measures only affect illegal aliens, and that nateralized (sp) citizens are not targeted by these bills.

The Debate: Is this something that more communities should take up in wake of the recent failure of the imigration bill in the US Senate? Or is this promoting racism and xenophobia?


I see nothing wrong with checking the imigration status of all arrested individuals. That's an excellent idea. That will definitely help "weed out" the illegal immigrants and hopefully send them back home where they belong. If you aren't here legally, then you don't belong here.

Yes, I do think that all communities should take this up. It's not fair for illegal immigrants to be here while others that are wanting to come here legally have to wait so long. I know most of them come here in search of a better life, and I sympathize with that, but it's not right to come here illegally when others have to wait to come here legally.

No, I don't think this is promoting racism. I really don't think racism has anything to do with this. It's not fair nor right for anyone to come here illegally - so what does racism have to do with it. It doesn't matter if you're white, black, Asian, Hispanic, etc... it's still wrong.
Theorist
#24 Old 25th Jul 2007 at 7:30 PM
I'm married to an immigrant who came here legally. We are far from well off, and all the fees, the trips to immigration, and the 'humilation' and not knowing whether our application would be approved were quite hard on our relationship. I don't approve of the excuses and free rides illegals get. Get in line and follow the rules or find a way to improve YOUR OWN COUNTRY.

I DO believe illegals working in the USA lower wages for citizens and legal aliens, thus creating problems. If there were less illegals, the 'evil owners' (who are part of the problem) would HAVE to pay decent wages. The other problem are the politicians who talk out of their mouths and their butts at the same time, making no real commitment either way.

I believe we should allow refugees in the USA (political/and the other categories, but I am not sure what those are, honestly). Illegals, no.

Illegal means 'breaking the law.' Everyone can have a pity story...I will tell you mine if you want to listen.

When in doubt, those in the wrong can always cry 'racism.'

To edit: I don't mean to sound harsh and I do feel for these people but it's not 1912 anymore. Our country just can't absorb everyone who wants to come here.

"If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went." Will Rogers
Lab Assistant
#25 Old 25th Jul 2007 at 8:36 PM
You know, this whole crime/illegal immagrant thing is starting to tick me off. There are NO realiable studies that prove illegal immagrants commit more crimes than any other citizen.............IN THEIR socio/economic class. If you are going to compare 1,000 illegal immegrants living below the poverty level to 1,000 residents living in a gated community, then of course they commit more crime. If you look at 1,000 illegal immegrants living below poverty level compared to 1,000 residents living below poverty level, you will find little difference. Studies actually show a slightly lower percentage for Illegals crime than residents. BUT....the biggest problem with illegal immigrants is that it's hard to get any solid numbers or statistics on them.

http://www.ailf.org/ipc/special_rep...resources.shtml

http://www.ailf.org/ipc/ipc_openletter0507.shtml

http://www.ailf.org/ipc/special_report/sr_022107.pdf (20 page report)

http://www.newstimeslive.com/news/s...ource=themepage

http://www.cis.org/articles/2001/crime/toc.html

To everyone who disagrees with me, i strongly urge you to look at the last link. It has info both on "my" side and on "your' side. It basically states that illegal immigrant crime is far lower than stated. But, since many illegals cannot report crime, or are not reported for crime, the far lower number isn't accurate, and the number is "low" instead of "far lower". I could keep going about this, but I think it is important to understand this "Illegal Immigrant/Crime" thing first.
 
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