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Inventor
#76 Old 3rd Aug 2007 at 11:35 PM
That is the thing mumof5ferals; there is no bandwagon to join. Religion is not a joining thing. It is like you said, a relationship with the knowledge of God as Father and all mankind as brothers. If those two are not a reality in your mind/spirit everything after that is meaningless. If you cant love your brother who you can/have seen you don’t know God plain and simply. Once your understanding/mind is open too and can accept the reality of God as Father and mankind, all of mankind are brothers God Himself through the Holy Spirit move you along in the wisdom of His knowledge from there, man can not do it no matter what label he give himself.

Faith comes from the same substance that love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, meekness and temperance come from. They are what make the difference between higher intelligence and flesh/animal nature. They are all in short/small supply in human nature because they all come from the core of man, his inner being, and the person who you really are without the mask. If you look at those nine attributes you will first notice that they are conditions that no one else can experience for you, they are all personal to that individual. They must and can only be a reality to an individual, as only he/she must partake of them for them to be his/her reality.

Faith then is only something you can have to yourself. We all have those nine attributes in different measure and only when we partake of them will they unveil your true core-self and you will know what your core-being already know, even if your claim is you do not/are not a believer in God. :D
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#77 Old 4th Aug 2007 at 12:14 AM
Personally, I do believe that some people are influenced so heavily by religion that if there was a complete seperation from it, they would stop caring. Many abide by the 10 commandments because they hope for a paradise after death. At the same time, most people don't commit crimes because they will have to face criminal charges if they do. So in my opinion, yes, it would be possible, as long as there is a strong legal system in this community, because the system would scare criminals into not commiting the crimes, which kind of relates to religion.
Scholar
#78 Old 4th Aug 2007 at 1:11 AM
Quote: Originally posted by urisStar
It is like you said, a relationship with the knowledge of God as Father and all mankind as brothers. If those two are not a reality in your mind/spirit everything after that is meaningless.


I don't completely follow you....so, if I have a feeling of concern and interest in other human beings (my "brothers"), I must, by definition, have a faith in God (my "father"), even if I do not believe in the existence of a God?

There's no other case? You must possess some sort of subconscious "love for God", in order to experience "love for mankind"--that the former can exist without the later, but not the later without the former? That any love for other people must be preceded by love of father/God--i.e. the basic "stuff" of religion.

Wouldn't that just make religion so intangible as to make it meaningless? Isn't that basically like saying, "Anyone who believes in God must realize that, rationally, he does not exist--even on a subconscious level. Because they know that they have a creator, a father, but God does not have a creator, so he is illogical and a fantasy."

I hope I'm mistaken--I probably am--but the way you describe is a little unusual. It seemed as though you were saying that, on the most basic levels, there are no Atheists--just members of a religion who don't really care about said faith.

"We're on sob day two of Operation Weeping-Bald-Eagle-Liberty-Never-Forget-Freedom-Watch sniff no word yet sob on our missing patriot Glenn Beck sob as alleged-President Hussein Obama shows his explicit support sniff for his fellow communists by ruling out the nuclear option."
Scholar
Original Poster
#79 Old 4th Aug 2007 at 1:46 AM
Quote: Originally posted by urisStar
Faith comes from the same substance that love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, meekness and temperance come from.

Agreed. They are come from the human brain. In fact, many are part of the same part of the human brain. However, that doesn't mean that there is some kind of dichotomy here - you can have all nine or none. There are plenty of people with faith but without meekness. And, there are plenty of people without faith but with goodness.
Inventor
#80 Old 4th Aug 2007 at 3:30 AM
Quote: Originally posted by Synthesis
I don't completely follow you....so, if I have a feeling of concern and interest in other human beings (my "brothers"), I must, by definition, have a faith in God (my "father"), even if I do not believe in the existence of a God?

There's no other case? You must possess some sort of subconscious "love for God", in order to experience "love for mankind"--that the former can exist without the later, but not the later without the former? That any love for other people must be preceded by love of father/God--i.e. the basic "stuff" of religion.

Wouldn't that just make religion so intangible as to make it meaningless? Isn't that basically like saying, "Anyone who believes in God must realize that, rationally, he does not exist--even on a subconscious level. Because they know that they have a creator, a father, but God does not have a creator, so he is illogical and a fantasy."

I hope I'm mistaken--I probably am--but the way you describe is a little unusual. It seemed as though you were saying that, on the most basic levels, there are no Atheists--just members of a religion who don't really care about said faith.


You can interchange the word faith with any of the other eight if it makes more sense to you, but you will also have to acknowledge our definition of religion and faith is not the same.

Anything that come off from the norm of what have been thought to be religion will and must be questioned and I am in full agreement with that. I think your confusion comes in when you think and or believe that your choice (not you personally, in general speaking) somehow has within it the ability to change who God is.

In the natural I can say my father is not my father and go out of my way to show all contempt, it does not change the facts. Basically it is up to each individual to use all nine attributes or none at all and I truly do believe God do speak for Himself to all however He chooses, I do not pretend to be His mouth piece. The mind is the battle ground/field and from it comes all kind of things be they judge to be good or bad by the owner of that mind.

My position is not to convince anyone of anything as it is up to each individual to find their own way and by whatever means they so choose. Your reality will never benefit me and the other way around as there would be no way that I could convince you that your reality/realities/experiences did not exist/is not real when you have lived them.

Not everyone, in fact, not many will understand what I am saying, but it is okay. I am not speaking to/of/from worldly wisdom nor is it good or bad, it just is.

The way I wrote/worded my post everyone that has a label besides Man/mankind to include both gender, should be asking the same question you just did. :D

Here is my clear-cut definition of faith: An energy force that brings/transport forth that which was created by an individual in the unseen world (the mind), into the material world to make it a seen/actuality/reality for that individual. :sneaky:
Scholar
#81 Old 4th Aug 2007 at 6:09 PM
Quote: Originally posted by urisStar
The way I wrote/worded my post everyone that has a label besides Man/mankind to include both gender, should be asking the same question you just did. :D

Here is my clear-cut definition of faith: An energy force that brings/transport forth that which was created by an individual in the unseen world (the mind), into the material world to make it a seen/actuality/reality for that individual. :sneaky:


Believe it or not, I prefer 'humanity', but it's not nearly as popular in English. Dunno why.

Incidentally, your definition pretty much confirms what I feared--so I'll just say, yes, we exist. We are conscious.

Does that have anything to do with God? Not anymore than the bread I'm toasting, but that's just me.

I'll throw another definition your way. My clear-cut definition of religion: the attributing of an origin to elements of our world, leading up to a supreme origin that is, ultimately, originless. Thus, religion (particularly Abrahamic religion) is an oxymoron and fundamentally flawed. :sneaky:

"We're on sob day two of Operation Weeping-Bald-Eagle-Liberty-Never-Forget-Freedom-Watch sniff no word yet sob on our missing patriot Glenn Beck sob as alleged-President Hussein Obama shows his explicit support sniff for his fellow communists by ruling out the nuclear option."
Inventor
#82 Old 4th Aug 2007 at 7:44 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Synthesis
Believe it or not, I prefer 'humanity', but it's not nearly as popular in English. Dunno why.

Incidentally, your definition pretty much confirms what I feared--so I'll just say, yes, we exist. We are conscious.

Does that have anything to do with God? Not anymore than the bread I'm toasting, but that's just me.

I'll throw another definition your way. My clear-cut definition of religion: the attributing of an origin to elements of our world, leading up to a supreme origin that is, ultimately, originless. Thus, religion (particularly Abrahamic religion) is an oxymoron and fundamentally flawed. :sneaky:


Guess what? I agree in part that Abrahamic religion is flawed because it was hijacked and turned into a outward public manifestation of a personal reality that can only exist/function behind the scenes/unto one’s self. Abraham's reality was mass produced and given out as a covering for others to wear without them having to have their own experience.

Most would say they prefer humanity but in fact they don’t and that is why by using labels it is easier for man to kill each other as well as all the ugly things they do to each other, and they don’t need religion to do that but find it more appealing when done in that way. I believe that could be why we are called humans.

The good part of it all is that we all have our individual choices and are free to use them however we see fit, and yet, you are okay and I am okay and the fight has no sting or harm attach to it. :sneaky:
Scholar
Original Poster
#83 Old 6th Aug 2007 at 9:19 AM
Quote: Originally posted by urisStar
they don’t need religion to do that

Do they need religion to not do it?
Inventor
#84 Old 6th Aug 2007 at 3:14 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Doddibot
Do they need religion to not do it?


Don’t you think they need some thing, cause what they got is very lacking won’t you agree?

To answer your question: Do they need religion to not do it? Lets take America, they claim to be a religious nation with a leaning towards Christianity, and yet when put under close observation, America is the most ungodly place with a propensity for more violence than you would want to shake a stick at. Their thought process is, it is all about me, so to hell with you. They mask this with the covering/claims of freedom and prosperity, which are all subjective, and seems to encourage a lack of morals through their practices and policies, while at the same time claiming to be a moral majority. Religion doesn’t seem to have a positive influence unless you think it is a positive thing to take advantage of the weak and the poor. In fact I would go so far as to say, they cultivate their own weak and poor with an interesting twist/spin.

Would you say they are in need of religion? It, religion, don’t seem to work, even a blind man can see that. I would suggest that what they call religion is not even a form of religion. Now that I’ve managed to upset a whole nation, I’ll stop here and answer your question.

Disclaimer: This observation is not limited to America, but they have mastered the concept best, so much so, that they have also given birth to "The Corporation"; their moral-less poster child that they have declared a person through their laws, that only have the dollar bill as a soul/spirit/mind. I would say, that is right up there with the worldly religious church which has now become their trusted allies. :cylon:

Take into consideration my definition of faith because we have come full circle.

Those nine attributes that we spoke of earlier (love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, meekness, temperance and faith); all are individual condition of the making of man, all men. My answer would be that faith and not religion is needed to not do it. Why faith? Faith can transform/transport those eight attributes from the mind/unseen into the world/seen where they are most needed. Think about it, if you don’t see that answer in your mind’s eye then it will never make any sense to you. :D
Scholar
Original Poster
#85 Old 8th Aug 2007 at 12:51 AM
Quote: Originally posted by urisStar
My answer would be that faith and not religion is needed to not do it. Why faith? Faith can transform/transport those eight attributes from the mind/unseen into the world/seen where they are most needed.

I don't understand. I would have thought action (or will) would be what actualizes the others.
Inventor
#86 Old 8th Aug 2007 at 3:54 AM
Quote: Originally posted by Doddibot
I don't understand. I would have thought action (or will) would be what actualizes the others.


I never underestimate anyone and if you can become the eight virtues through will and they become you, it is a good thing, and they will make all things clear to you even the deep things that are pass finding out. They are not the roads most travel but the sights on the way of this journey is full to overflowing with more of the same.

"Faith is like a great flooding river. How can it be directed to the left or right?
The myriad/countless things rely on it for their life but do not distinguish it.
It brings to completion but cannot be said to exist.
It clothes and feeds all things without lording over them.

It is always desireless, so we call it "the small."
The myriad/countless things return to it and it doesn't exact lordship
Thus it can be called "great."
Till the end, it does not regard itself as Great.

Therefore it actualizes its greatness." :baloons:
Scholar
Original Poster
#87 Old 8th Aug 2007 at 7:45 AM
Poetry and rhetoric.
Lab Assistant
#88 Old 8th Aug 2007 at 8:08 AM
I really have no ieda how peple can argue in favour of this lie. It's not even a matter of opinion, it's just nonsense. If that were true, all athisets would be commiting crimes and no religious people would. As it happens, the figures show that actually more religious people do, and when there are a fair few religions, Christianity for example, that teach you will always be forgiven - or, to reword it, you can do whatever you like and not worry about punishment if you apologise - that's not exactly a baffling statistic.
People might be saying that then they're not religious, but just since they don't follow that person's ideals then that doesn't mean they're not part of the religion. If you were to follow the ideals of your religion, chances are you'd be actively working against homosexuals, if you were one be afraid to say it, and quite a lot more immoral stuff.

Since its start there have been human sacrifices, persecution and wars over religion. Perhaps the first no longer exists in most modern day religions, and then only practiced by tiny religions or complete extremists, but the other two do, undeniably.

This isn't a rant against religion; that would be the silliest and rudest form of hypocrisy. Instead, this is a rant against a completely false statement brought upon by arrogance, hardly the most moral thing in itself and so the statement disproves itself.
Inventor
#89 Old 8th Aug 2007 at 1:13 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Doddibot
Poetry and rhetoric.



Just answering your questions, not selling you anything as I have chosen that road through free will but also with the understanding of the role of faith. If the rest of the world go in the opposite direction their choice through their exercise of their Will doesn’t impede me in the least. As far as religion is concerned, I fit into none. I am accepting of all and have come to understand that we are all one and the same. I look for the best in all and can almost always find it, so there is no struggle or stiffness or ridged/unevenness.
Here is more poetry and rhetoric:

The softest thing in the world
Will overcome the hardest.
Non-being can enter where there is no space.
Therefore I know the benefit of unattached action.
The wordless teaching and unattached action

Are rarely seen. :wavegbye: :D
Lab Assistant
#90 Old 11th Aug 2007 at 11:16 AM
well my perspective on the notions of morality, ethics and good or evil is that it doesn't come from religion but from two things

-first: it comes from a desire to give meaning to ones actions, we do things because we believe them to be good or ethical

- second: we call actions or things unethical or bad if they aren't beneficial for you or for someone else, but they might be beneficial for someone else

most philosophically based religions(the abrahamic ones, Buddhism,..)also come from these two causes(to call things good or bad and give meaning to ones actions)

my dear lord, it's the ferocious black beast of Rhipsanydoridontodontodontodon, with its large black teeth that can eat 3 humans at once, mate 3 times a year, can reach an average speed of 80 miles/hour, and is 50 ft aaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrggghhh

P.S. if you have seen him put this in your signature
 
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