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Theorist
#26 Old 25th Jul 2007 at 8:57 PM
But they are committing a crime--being here illegally IS a crime. Living 20 men to a house is a crime in many housing zones (this is not their fault, however, here where even citizens cannot afford decent homes), loitering while waiting to be picked up for their illegal jobs is also a crime.

Here's an interesting article I found related to this issue from where I used to own a home:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1456969/posts


I believe if they actually assimilated more they'd have less problems in the USA. But maybe some of them don't know any better.

"If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went." Will Rogers
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Lab Assistant
#27 Old 25th Jul 2007 at 9:19 PM
Quote: Originally posted by HCAC
But they are committing a crime--being here illegally IS a crime. Living 20 men to a house is a crime in many housing zones (this is not their fault, however, here where even citizens cannot afford decent homes), loitering while waiting to be picked up for their illegal jobs is also a crime.

Here's an interesting article I found related to this issue from where I used to own a home:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1456969/posts


I believe if they actually assimilated more they'd have less problems in the USA. But maybe some of them don't know any better.



How can they assimilate if they aren't allowed to? In my area I find it almost funny that they go into a mirgrant laborers home, and either kick em out into the street, or put them into an even more cramped and overcrowded jail cell! I live in the heart of Potato country. Everytime there is a crackdown on illegal workers, farms around here DO NOT hire regular workers for a descent wage. The buy machines to do the work instead. As far as 20 workers being crammed in a house and urinating and deficating on the lawn, and leaving out trash...bah. I know many disgusting natural US citizens that do the same. My jerk ex boyfriend and his roommate lived in the "poor" part of town. They were both white. They lived next to a Mexican family of about ten. Let me tell you, that poor Mexican family had much better manners than the two white boys. I felt so bad for the family,......because their two white boy neighbors partied until all hours, threw beer cans over the fence into the families yard,....and I suspect, once stole that poor freaking families tools and toolbox (worth about 500$, probably the families costliest item) These white boys had the audacity to tell me that it didn't matter....the Mexicans were illegal and couldn't do anything about it. This illegal family was forced out of the home, and in leaving..........GAVE these two jerks an old washer and dryer, because they didn't have anyway to move it to where they were going and thought the boys might need it.

They are just people. Like all people, there are good and bad.
Theorist
#28 Old 25th Jul 2007 at 9:20 PM
well you know what? If they had been in the country legally, and got themselves documented, they could have done something about it, couldn't they?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obama on ABC's This Week, discussing Obamacare
What it's saying is, is that we're not going to have other people carrying your burdens for you anymore
umm...Isn't having other people carry your medical burden exactly what national health care is?
Test Subject
#29 Old 25th Jul 2007 at 9:26 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Doc Doofus
Build a wall, a great big, big wall. If we would just actually do something to limit people coming here illegally we wouldn't have all this extremeness and hatred.


They were supposed to build a great big wall that went all the way across the border... then they weren't... then they were... then there were problems and they weren't... then they were again, but it was gonna be smaller... and then I stopped trying to keep track of it because it was like trying to keep track of an on again off again hollywood relationship. So the problem with this is that it seems no one can get thier act together and push some papers around. Then the illegal immigrant debates come up again and everyone gets distracted, and then we all forget about the wall until someone comes out and says, "Hey, why don't just build a wall?". *sigh* The wonders of government... works so well, does it not? :disagree:
Scholar
#30 Old 25th Jul 2007 at 9:33 PM
Quote: Originally posted by davious
well you know what? If they had been in the country legally, and got themselves documented, they could have done something about it, couldn't they?


WOW, Davious, you're kind of harsh there. I don't think that illegal immigrants should be here, but at the same time I feel sorry for a lot of them. They're just looking for a better life and I can sympathize with them. It's not right nor fair for them to be here illegally, but I can understand why they'd want to be here. Anyone would seek a better life for themselves and their family if they live in poverty. That should be understandable.
Lab Assistant
#31 Old 25th Jul 2007 at 9:53 PM
Quote: Originally posted by davious
well you know what? If they had been in the country legally, and got themselves documented, they could have done something about it, couldn't they?



This is a perfect example of what I mean. Until people stop reffering to them as a liability and start understanding them as human beings, nothing will change. Period. To assume that since they were technically illegal (not all of them were, like many, some had documentation and some didn't have the money for it) that they deserved what they got will only perpetuate hate and violence. It is likely that they would not have gotten squat done if they were legal. They were still farm workers, still Mexican, and still looked down upon. To most people in the area, if you are Mexican and work on a farm, you are automatically an illegal immigrant, despite if you have a Visa or Greencard. It COSTS alot of money to become a citizen, relatively. Do you know how many workers come here to make money, and go home to save it and hope to beomce a citizen? Not all, by any means. But that doesn't discount the ones who do.


Quote: Originally posted by Doc Doofus

Build a wall, a great big, big wall. If we would just actually do something to limit people coming here illegally we wouldn't have all this extremeness and hatred.


Uhhh, hello? There is a reason this hasn't been done. Berlin Wall anyone? Purpose of which was to seperate East and West Germany? How well did that work? Do you know the COST of putting up and defending an actual wall along the Mexican boarder is? Do you know just what the upkeep of said wall would be? It's isn't pretty. Thats a very big area to cover. And a wall has proven one thing...it keeps people out around the area of the wall. But it doesn't keep people out. Like Hitler invading France, they just go around it. Sorry, no Nazi reference meant, just trying to get that vision across of Hitlers army just marching up and around the French wall.
Field Researcher
#32 Old 25th Jul 2007 at 10:00 PM
Bleh... here is my opinion, Illegal Immigrants shouldn't be allowed in any country. But Legal Immigrants are welcome
Forum Resident
#33 Old 26th Jul 2007 at 12:44 AM
To do a little run down on the situation, and solutions.

I know some here feel strongly and stand for their defence, I respect that. They are treated poorly. But that's for one reason, if they object, they get a one way ticket back to where they came from. In all they are treated far worse by those who employ them then INS.

Looking at the solutions that have been suggested over the years. Doing nothing only allows the problem to continue. So solutions must be sought. Allowing them instant citizenship is a slap in the face of every immigrant who went through the process legally. Where they spent the large sum of cash and spent endless hours of time going through the process, another cheated and got their free pass because they slipped across the boarder when they shouldn't have. Is that fair? No. So what is the answer to this then? Just say oh well, and too bad to those who seek the legal path?

Then there is the lets build a wall solution. Sounds good, but rarely works. Unless your willing to man the wall, you wont stop them with this. They will dig under it, cut through it, or just climb over it. Or the new surveillance wall sections with the cameras. Wonderful, now we can count how many are running across the border. But what about catching them? If no one is in the area, your not going to catch them.

Personally I like the solution being taken up a bit more now. Instead of going after the Illegal them self, law enforcement are starting to turn attention to those who hire them.

Case in point is a meat packing plant in my state that has been busted numerous times for hiring illegals.

Quote:
July 12, 2007 - There's been another raid at the Swift Plant in Marshalltown this week, but this time, it wasn't just illegal immigrants that federal officials were after. Immigration and Customs agents arrested four people on Tuesday, including a union representative and a human resources worker.

Both face up to five years in prison and a $250,000 fine for allegedly harboring illegal immigrants. The human resource officer faces an additional count of failing to report a crime after knowing or participating in one.


Simple solution, go after those who hire them, and the jobs disappears over night. No employer will want to spend time in prison just to save a few dollars by hiring an illegal and under paying them. And after the jobs disappear, then there is no reason to sneak across the boarder, if no one will hire them.

Erasing One Big Astounding Mistake All-around
Theorist
#34 Old 26th Jul 2007 at 12:52 AM
How do they assimilate? Well, I mean, try to respect the culture and laws of the USA--behave in a certain manner. Actually LEARN English. There are ESL classes everywhere for free. No one says forget your old language but this is the USA, we mainly speak and conduct business in English, so learn it.

It's not right to hate illegals or abuse them. No one with a heart would advocate that.

What I want to know is if I go move illegally to (insert any non-English speaking country) would they like it if I DEMANDED they speak my language, impose my culture on them, get free services that the citizens have to pay for like medical, refuse to learn how things run there and then cry foul when they objected to me being illegal?

Bottom line, if you want to come here, do it legally and be able to support yourself. If you are victim of a cruel government or a famine or whatever, we let in so many of these 'refugees.' There are quotas in place for a reason.

It's all well and good to be a liberal and want to help the world (this is not directed to anyone in particular) but there is only so much we can do. Why should people who flout the system get rewarded? What does that say for the thousands of people who try to come and have a life in the USA legally?

There is a reason they ask you for your income, if you have a profession, and a place to live when you apply for legal status here. Why should people get free medical, dental, housing reductions and other perks when they sneak into the USA? Most citizens don't have such a good deal, but we wind up paying for it.

"If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went." Will Rogers
Lab Assistant
#35 Old 26th Jul 2007 at 1:50 AM
Quote: Originally posted by HCAC
How do they assimilate? Well, I mean, try to respect the culture and laws of the USA--behave in a certain manner. Actually LEARN English. There are ESL classes everywhere for free. No one says forget your old language but this is the USA, we mainly speak and conduct business in English, so learn it.

It's not right to hate illegals or abuse them. No one with a heart would advocate that.

What I want to know is if I go move illegally to (insert any non-English speaking country) would they like it if I DEMANDED they speak my language, impose my culture on them, get free services that the citizens have to pay for like medical, refuse to learn how things run there and then cry foul when they objected to me being illegal?

Bottom line, if you want to come here, do it legally and be able to support yourself. If you are victim of a cruel government or a famine or whatever, we let in so many of these 'refugees.' There are quotas in place for a reason.

It's all well and good to be a liberal and want to help the world (this is not directed to anyone in particular) but there is only so much we can do. Why should people who flout the system get rewarded? What does that say for the thousands of people who try to come and have a life in the USA legally?

There is a reason they ask you for your income, if you have a profession, and a place to live when you apply for legal status here. Why should people get free medical, dental, housing reductions and other perks when they sneak into the USA? Most citizens don't have such a good deal, but we wind up paying for it.



You must have misread my post. I asked nothing like "How do they assimilate"....I said "How do they assimilate if they aren't allowed to?"
Forum Resident
#36 Old 26th Jul 2007 at 3:22 AM
The problems with walls...

Yup, you can get around them. You can tunnel under them. You can pole vault over them. You can pull a Steve McQueen and do a motorcycle ramp-jump over them. But one thing a wall certainly does -- it slows you down a little.

Right now, there are huge empty spaces along our border with Mexico where there is NOTHING. People quite literally just stroll across the border, not even having to step over a piece of rusty barbed wire. No border guards, no walls, no helicopters, nothing. They just walk across.

Now, we could put people on horseback and in helicopters all up and down the border. But what good does that do if illegals cross 100 at a time and all the border guards have is a handgun that they're not allowed to fire (for very good reason -- a lot of these people are elderly and children with families in the US.)

Walls are imperfect, but they slow down the process. It's unreasonable to expect perfect sealing along the border, but just slowing down the immigration would be a remarkable first step.

As for the cost of the wall... A wall would make it more difficult to cross in some areas than in others, thus allowing border enforcement to focus on the problem areas. That means fewer border guards necessary, fewer helicopters, etc., to accomplish the same task that we are failing to accomplish today. The investment in the infrastructure pays off over the course of time in a less costly immigration bureaucracy.

But what if we can't seal the WHOLE border. What if we just seal off 200 mile chunks at a time. Won't the illegals just walk around it? Yes. They will tend to cross at the points of least resistance, the unwalled portions. That's what you would do, that's what I would do, too, in that situation. But that means that our border security can focus more of their attention on the unwalled portions of the border. So the pay-off for building a wall is immediate, not years down the line.

As for the Berlin Wall... It worked fairly well for what it was supposed to accomplish, which was VERY different (walling people IN, not keeping people out). When the Berlin Wall came down, the East German government collapsed within days (to their great surprise!)
Theorist
#37 Old 26th Jul 2007 at 4:34 AM
Wait...Doc, I think I actually agree with you...of course, you realize that this could be a sign of the apocalypse...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obama on ABC's This Week, discussing Obamacare
What it's saying is, is that we're not going to have other people carrying your burdens for you anymore
umm...Isn't having other people carry your medical burden exactly what national health care is?
Test Subject
#38 Old 26th Jul 2007 at 4:46 AM
davious I think you just broke the rules. OPS! so did I!
Scholar
#39 Old 26th Jul 2007 at 10:58 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Daisie
What is it, exactly, about Mexico that everyone apparently wants to escape? Lack of jobs/money? That's something I've never quite heard explained, and it's just a question - no implications or connotations or anything.


No doubt it's a combination of a multitude of factors--that, and a certain allure that exists. Many people might take the risks of illegally immigrating hoping to pursue the "American Dream"--inevitably, many end up doing work that is tantamount to wage-slavery, on fruit farms in the Southwest or earning less than the minimum wage on private construction projects.

That's not the case for all--nor, as Davious pointed out, does every Mexican want to immigrate. The fact that so many are able to has some very old causes--much of what is the American Southwest was once part of Mexico, before it was flooded by white illegal immigrants and annexed through war and political-deal making. Nothing good comes without a price, and a century later, we have a huge border between the United States and Mexico.

There's no easy solution to this--anyone with an iota of common sense realizes that even if we could eject the entirety of the illegal alien population of Mexican nationals from the United States, the end result would be nothing short of catastrophic from an economic standpoint. For the past fifty years, American industry and business has become accustomed to the notion that there is a cheap source of readily available labor that is inexhaustible. Taking that away would ravage the economy like nothing we could imagine--practically millions of jobs that Americans would be unwilling to work for the wages involved.

Any real solution has to take that into consideration--yes, these people are acting in violation of the law, and even in mockery of it, but before we declare "Mexicans are stealing mah' healthcare!", we have to remember that we, as Americans, have allowed ourselves to become dependent on that population. If you need another example, consider that any sort of barrier along the US-Mexico border is inevitably going to rely on illegal immigrant labor, through private subcontractors.

In any case, the Berlin Wall might not be the best example of how to resolve the current crisis. The East German State ceased to be not because there was a lack of persons in it--indeed, even after the wall fell, most East Germans are still East Germans (and even more so for East Berliners, hence the deep cultural and political differences between the east and west of the country). Most people who crossed the wall that famous day simply crossed back when it was after, ironically. East Germany ceased to be because it was annexed into West Germany, by popular support and political force. "Walls" and barricades have a very limited utility, in reality--perhaps a more relevant examination in relation to our problems would be to look at the barricades proposed by the Israeli Government (since they are intended to keep in out, rather than keeping them in).

I personally don't think a wall is a viable solution, even if we intended to restrict all travel. The last project of that scope was in the 16th Century, and it was intended to keep a much smaller population out of China.

"We're on sob day two of Operation Weeping-Bald-Eagle-Liberty-Never-Forget-Freedom-Watch sniff no word yet sob on our missing patriot Glenn Beck sob as alleged-President Hussein Obama shows his explicit support sniff for his fellow communists by ruling out the nuclear option."
Mad Poster
#40 Old 27th Jul 2007 at 12:16 AM
The only problem I see with illegal immigration is the fact that people cannot integrate themselves properly in the society, apply for jobs or receive healthcare like normal citizens, and because of this illegal alternatives appear such as slave-like work conditions and improper medical care, or even housing. However, I know someone who immigrated illegally to the States, had several decent jobs, a perfectly legal driving license, eventually married there and got citizenship. Saying that illegal immigrants avoid paying taxes is not entirely true, I'm sure many of them would pay them if the system allowed them to do so. Most of them are trying to make a better life for themselves, do you really think that they would not like to apply for a job like any normal person, or receive proper healthcare when needed?
Top Secret Researcher
#41 Old 28th Jul 2007 at 4:01 AM
I'm of the opinion that the entire system needs to be redone. I'll admit that I live a very white bread existence, but a friend of mine had to battle the US state department for citzenship because they dont have the capacity to handle people born on aircraft.
People shouldn't have to 'battle' for citzenship, ever. So if we did redo the system we would have to allow for the illegals already here, and for the poor of other countries who want to become citzens. So what to do with the illegals in the meantime?
We can't deport all of the illegals becasue for one they have children who are citzens and then what are you going to do with them? And we do need cheap unskilled workers that will actually work. How are you going to replace that labor source?
We can't build a wall, because its expensive, hardly impregnable and would take large amounts of time. Also it wouldn't solve the problem of people already here
We can't grant the illegals amnesty because that would be a mockery of the people that went through our awful immigration system, and it would infuriate the upper echleons of society.
Not to depress anyone here but there really is no one way solution to deal wtih the problem of illegal immigrants.

Quote:
What is it, exactly, about Mexico that everyone apparently wants to escape? Lack of jobs/money? That's something I've never quite heard explained, and it's just a question - no implications or connotations or anything.

We pay them more! In Mexico minimum wage is a little under two thousand dollars a year. Here (assuming they are being paid fairly) its a bit over twelve thousand. Even if they are being royally shafted by the people they work for, they will still make much more than if they worked at home. Also we have free (sort of for them) healthcare and services, and there's that whole American dream stuff that draws immigrants to the torturous process of immigrating in the first place.

The humor of a story on the internet is in direct inverse proportion to how accurate the reporting is.
Test Subject
#42 Old 6th Aug 2007 at 7:44 AM
Well I have been following this post with a great deal of interest, because a large part of me wants to believe that if someone manages to find a way here into the States, they should be allowed to stay, but unfortunately, I can't endorse that belief.
After experiencing firsthand many illegal immigrants, both in NY and where I lived in Miami, I realize that the solution is not to protect the rights of people that just come here (illegally) for a better life.
The most important thing to realize is that this allowance of illegal immigrants greatly effects the economy. There are many people from foreign countries, both from Latin America and Europe that I have met, who all come here legally and are not citizens. People that come here to work or study can keep applying for special permits can frequently stay for years, come and go as they please, and even get their green cards in time. Many people that come here illegally, however, are often desperate for work, and it is very hard to find a job. While sometimes friends or relatives can help them out, desperate people will often do desperate things for money, and a lot of the people that sell drugs or deal in drugs are illegal immigrants.
Some people ONLY come into this country to make money, then leave again. That too is more common than some might think. They illegally make their profits, wire it to their bank in their home country asking a friend who is legal, and then leave the States without paying taxes on the money.
Unfortunately, I had a casual friend who did this very thing. Not only did she sell drugs, but she ended up having commited a number of sexual crimes too. I didn't know she did these things, but she isn't the first person I know from abroad to enter the states and do something very illegal. Knowing her first hand, I see that her desperation of her money situation drove her to turn to such measures, but remember that not all people are so good-hearted that they simply want to provide better lives for their families.
In foriegn countries where life is hard and there isn't the leisure of freedoms in society such as we in America enjoy, people are more self-motivated to come here by any means, and stay no matter what the cost.
I have some friends from France who are wealthy, and some of the men from their group simply paid girls to marry them. If someone has enough money to do this, then so be it. Chances are, people with a higher income may or may not be industrious workers, but they may not be commiting any reckless crimes out of desperation, or like someone else said, insurance won't be an issue as in illegal immigrants.
America is a prosperous country that is expecially close to Central America and South America, some of which have countries that are not so prosperous. A boy I knew from China was smuggled up through Mexico and then into the US. Eventually he became a citizen, and his family as well, and they are all doing very well. But the government can not run a check on everyone that wants to enter the US and say, "Is this a good person? Will he work hard? What about his family? Is he a moral person and what is his potential?" Anytime you have an appealing thing next to a less appealing thing, a normal person would go for the most appealing thing he could get. That is why so many people try to come here. To make life easier, to make it better, to make more money, and so on... Just as we are seeing in some other countries today with immigrations. But there must be rules in place to ensure the people that are already in place are protected and taken care of. If people wish to apply to come here, then there must be requirements which they have to meet. The poverty and misfortune can not be alleviated by burdening our country(which in effect is burdening its citizens) with the situation perhaps a non-resident might be in. It would be nice to provide for all, but when we examine the situation, we can see how completely unbalanced it is to try and solve the problem of immigration by allowing a influx of people to simply come here at their own whims or to stay once they've arrived.
Field Researcher
#43 Old 6th Aug 2007 at 5:41 PM
Well said, ateKna.

This is from my perspective as a first-generation immigrant (I'm legal and a U.S. Citizen), so I may be a little biased. My short answer to the original post is that those illegal aliens who come here for malicious purposes ought to be detained, deported, and punished in their original countries; the question of what's to be done about the illegals who only intend to make a decent living, though, is tough. I think that if they are not siphoning the money back to Mexico but rather using their money to try to build a life here, they should be given a chance to prove they can contribute to society rather than just take.

All this because of the ideal that exists in the minds of people who dream of a better existence in a different country. Then it turns out the U.S. is not the idyllic land they'd dreamed about, where even hard work doesn't always get them anywhere, and no matter how much they try to fit in and assimilate, the "natives" are nothing if not hostile. The ones who escape their own country to come here want to believe that they can come here with no papers, nothing and be welcomed into society which will help them when they need it, but that's hardly the case and hardly ever will be. Just saying that their original country ought to improve its citizens' quality of life is cheating--you can't expect anything except that people will be people and greed/lust for power will prevail. They're caught in an uncomfortable conundrum--a miserable existence vs. an unknown one. I admire the immigrants, illegal or legal, who are willing to work their ***** off to give their children the opportunity to make better lives for themselves than their parents had.

Then there are the scoundrels driven by greed, who use cunning to profit from "helping" those ideal-seekers, only to leave them to fend for themselves at the end, or even to betray them. These people ought to be harshly punished, by whomever is responsible, for feeding off the dreams of others.

On this side, there are those who support amnesty, whether out of the goodness of their hearts or for the purpose of supporting the interests of corporate lobbyists who hire illegals to cut costs. Obviously, there are also the others whose basic mode of thought is "how dare they come into OUR country and not speak our language, blah blah". How dare they, indeed. I have no respect for many of these so-called "native"s who sit on their couches and preach about the values of being tax-paying, hard-working U.S. citizens and complain about immigrants taking their jobs, buying their houses/cars/products, speaking languages other than English (gasp! There are other languages?), attending their schools (how dare they get better grades than our kids! Let's kick them out!), and generally taking their opportunities away when the actual reason is that they simply aren't working hard enough. (Well, then, why not do something about all those Chinese immigrants in Chinatown who come here via sponsorship, never try to assimilate with mainstream society, and don't speak a wisp of English?) Immigrants are taking the jobs they refuse to do and benefiting their lives while all they want to do is leech off the hard work of others. It's surprising how many immigrants do stay despite all this hostility--this just goes to show that the couch preachers spout nothing but nonsense.

The problem is too complicated to be seen in black vs. white. Laws always end up affecting groups which aren't involved, giving bad seeds loopholes and giving the people with good intentions one obstacle after another. Work has to be done to make laws which can effectively keep illegals with negative intentions out of the country while letting those who are simply making a living for their families a chance to prove they can become productive in society.

If we're going to keep the illegals out, it's going to take far more than laws--these people don't know much about the laws except their broad, broad implications, but those aren't enough of a deterrent. When people are this desperate to get away from miserable lives, no law is going to keep them from doing so. We could say, just "give them a dose of reality", but that only does so much--ideals are their fuel.

"Make believe in magic, make believe in dreams
Make believe impossible, nothing as it seems
See, touch, taste, smell, hear, but never know if it's real"
--The Cure, "More Than This"
#44 Old 7th Aug 2007 at 1:09 AM
ok first of all none or most of you dont know how hard it is to get into the u.s. people dont just simply walk across the border. first of all it is very very expensive to come to the u.s. legaly and many people in mexico dont have that kind of time NOR money to come here the right way. trust me if it was cheeper and faster to become legal many mexicans would do it the right way. it is very dangerous to come to the u.s. illegaly but it spares you a hell of alot of money and time. and i guess most of you dont know many mexicans die trying to get across the border. i am a american citizen and i live a very happy and wealthy life. and you know why? because my dad who is now a citizen worked maybe even 10 times harder then most american born people do. he has been very successful. and my mom has never had the need to work a day in her life. he practacly draged the company he works for up the ladder. and i cannot ever imagine living in mexico. i have visted there for prolong times and it sucks. my grandma is currently very ill and it is hard for her to travel to the hospital and pay for her hospital costs. and one big reason she can afford insurance or even afford coverning the hospital costs is because my dad has been sending money over to her. and in mexico it is very expencive to get health insuruance. I feel imigrants have a right to be here either if they are illegal or legal because it is true that it gives there children a hell of a better life then where they came from. and i know that most of you that dissagree with my view could never live a month in a 3rd world country withought complaining. now imagine living there all your life and rasing a family there. dont forget that america was made up of imigrants. and i know im not the best person to make my views on this topic because i dont know much about the law but i know about how i grew up and i cant imagine being in any other place.
Test Subject
#45 Old 8th Aug 2007 at 12:31 AM
As you said, nostalgicpaty , many of us Americans could not adjust to living in a third world country now that we have been exposed to life in a first world country. Your father has had great success here and that is exceptional. Everyone who hears a story like that must feel happy about it. In no way do I disregard the accomplishments that have already been made, because they must be recognized. In fact, that should make us all more aware of the situation we face with worldwide poverty. As long as the US remains a gateway from economic depression and overall poor living conditions, it will be a target for all people that are within reach of it that want to find a better life.
That is why I think that a heavy part of the responsibilty of finding ways to improve this situation lies on the United States. But I still do not promote illegal immigration, and the right to remain in a country just because you want to be there, and want to work there. The idea that land is free doesn't apply both economically and situationally, because each person that is here must contribute towards the whole of the country in some small portion. The more people that don't (because they can't in some ways if they are illegal), the more burden falls to the ones already contributing.
I do not think that it is easy to 'get in' to this country if you are foreign, and there is no clever strategy to do so. Up until the late 1920's, immigrants could freely come to this country with little chance of being turned away. A good 80 years ago, this country was in a much different situation, and it has been shaped based on those people that came. It is in the state that it is in, a composition of many people from many backgrounds, based on the collective efforts of people from all over the world. I think we all recognize that. But just because this nation had an open door policy back then does not mean that it would benefit it in the same way today. If you are baking a cake and it needs 2 cups of sugar, you pour in the 2 cups of sugar and don't keep adding additional sugar beyond that. What if you have to go back and reread the recipe to check and make sure you aren't missing an ingredient. When you read through it again, do you just add more sugar even though you've already added it? No. And this is the same situation. At the time when we needed people to come here, they came and worked hard, just as your father did. (But again, the probility of all people rising to meet challenges like your father did is not very high. Many people do not come here because they neccessarily want to work, but because they just want their life to be easier.)
As far as medical insurance and a national health plan go, it is one of the hardest things for a country to be able to take care of the health need of all of its citizens. Medical care is expensive here in the US, and many people have trouble getting adequte insurance. In fact, one of the major issues this upcoming election deals with that very topic of medical coverage. Many people both here and in Mexico, as well as in other countries, go without medicine or help because they can not afford it. I feel very bad for each of those people that I know are suffereing, and it is a hard thing to think about. But because there are so many people in the world, it is a fact that some of them will go without, and we should try to find ways to make as few people as possible suffer. That being said, when it is a relative, or the struggle of one who is important or close to you, then the concept not allowing certain people to immigrat here seems especially unfair.
#46 Old 10th Aug 2007 at 6:24 PM
I don't know. To me the whole immigrant thing is not an issue. You're here illegally. End of story. I know many people complain about how hard it is to get into this country, but I know several people that would tell you it was well worth it. If you want it that bad then you'll have to work for it, same as anything else. None of this would fly if you entered any other country illegally. Its only the U.S. that has these problems.

I don't feel sorry for them one bit. Many families have been here long enough for their children to go to high school and college. They could have taken the steps to become legal during that time. They didn't do it because they didn't want to. Worse yet, some people choose to exploit their children to keep them from being deported! That makes me angry more than anything else. That alone should be enough to get you deported.

I think people are making a race issue because it gives them an excuse to complain. What they don't realize though is that its hurting more than helping. My friend's mother was called an illegal immigrant by someone just because she wanted change at a restaurant. She's been here legally for years


The legislation does bother me though
Instructor
#47 Old 10th Aug 2007 at 6:46 PM
Legal is fine. Illegal isn't. End of story. It's hard enough for people who have been here for years trying to get legal citizenship. To make it easy for those who are here illegally is a joke and an insult to other immigrants. As someone else mentioned this wouldn't fly in any other country. Only here. A country that has built itself on the backs of immigrants, exploits them and continues to do so.

Sure. Fine. Whatever.
Scholar
#48 Old 10th Aug 2007 at 10:08 PM
Quote: Originally posted by preemptive_doodle
A country that has built itself on the backs of immigrants, exploits them and continues to do so.


Which is precisely why illegal immigrants continue to the United States--because there are jobs available. Take away that cheap labor, and all Americans will feel the hardship, legal or otherwise. It's an unhappy truth that has torn at the Republican Party (and to a lesser extent, the Democratic Party) for years.

While a full ejection is not only physically impossible, but economically unrecoverable for the United States, a slow, gradual ejection of illegal immigrants already in the nation (accompanied by a cut-off of immigration itself), which is so popular with many Americans, is still difficult and still has bitter economic repercussions. It's not fair, certainly, but business was never intended to be.

"We're on sob day two of Operation Weeping-Bald-Eagle-Liberty-Never-Forget-Freedom-Watch sniff no word yet sob on our missing patriot Glenn Beck sob as alleged-President Hussein Obama shows his explicit support sniff for his fellow communists by ruling out the nuclear option."
Lab Assistant
#49 Old 11th Aug 2007 at 8:32 PM
i wonder what bureaucratic process do you have to go tru to become a legal immigrant?
maybe i can spot out the reason why they don't go tru it

from where i am(Belgium) most people(about 70% i think) don't make such a bigg fuss about illigal immigrants those who do, mostly vote for the extreme right party: flemish intrest(a.k.a; that racist party )

my dear lord, it's the ferocious black beast of Rhipsanydoridontodontodontodon, with its large black teeth that can eat 3 humans at once, mate 3 times a year, can reach an average speed of 80 miles/hour, and is 50 ft aaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrggghhh

P.S. if you have seen him put this in your signature
 
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