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Original Poster
#1 Old 9th Sep 2007 at 7:04 AM
Default Mother of all Debates II: The Jesus Debate
Simple question, complex answer... did Jesus exist?

I've started following this debate in the last few weeks, and it's really been interesting to see the comments on either side. Basically here are the two extremes:

The pro Jesus argument basically states that Jesus was indeed a real person and existed pretty much as stated in the Bible.

The Jesus myth argument has taken a number of different forms, but one of the hot ones right now is that the biblical account is basically a spin-off of various pagan myths that predated the New Testament. Another of the main arguments is the overall lack of evidence to support the claim that Jesus did exist, such as the lack of historical records of the time.

So what are your thoughts?
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#2 Old 9th Sep 2007 at 7:15 AM
i think he did exist buy not to how the bible portrays him

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#3 Old 9th Sep 2007 at 7:40 AM
I believe he did exist and had an extremely strong influence on christianly as we know it, but I also think that the Bible portrays him in most situations in a "godlike", divine way. More like metaphors to get a point across
Instructor
#4 Old 9th Sep 2007 at 7:47 AM
Yes, I believe he did exist. I also believe in God aswell. But I don't go to church every Sunday. I should but I don't.

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#5 Old 9th Sep 2007 at 7:57 AM
I think he did. Maybe not under the same name, or doing the same extreme deeds.

But as I've said before, what's most important is what one person decides to believe. And that one person is you. No one can make you believe something but you. As long as you believe it, nothing else matters.
I could, say, believe that purple aliens with giant yellow spots existed and that they'd save my life if the world ended. Maybe it isn't true, but if it gives me strength in bad times and it helps pull me through, then that is what important.
#6 Old 9th Sep 2007 at 9:02 AM
Clearly Jesus was an alien though :P

I'll elaborate when I'm back from work..

- Star of Bethlehem would be classed as UFO in todays times.
- Virgin birth/alien insemination?
- He had unhuman powers, curing the lame and blind - maybe he had advanced medicine.
- He "rose" to "heaven" - back up in the sky to his home planet?
#7 Old 9th Sep 2007 at 11:32 AM
I voted for I need to ask my pet goat first because there is not situation where I can really use that answers as I dont have a pet goat :P

but what i really wanted to vote for is Yes, but not as per biblical accounts.

I think Jesus was a philosopher, like Gautama Budha.
Scholar
#8 Old 9th Sep 2007 at 11:35 AM
Yes I think he did; but probably not as the Bible depicts him
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#9 Old 9th Sep 2007 at 1:03 PM
I voted no.

I don't even think there is enough evidence for him to be considered a real person. It's possible that he was real, but I seriously doubt it.

I mean, if someone found the complete works of Harry Potter in 200 years from now, without many/any historical records, they might think Harry was real. Certainly, you can see that some of the places mentioned, London for example, are later found to be real. But Harry never existed.

I think much the same thing, albeit religiously motivated rather than commercially, probably happened with Jesus.

If you want to know how one could tell the works of JK Rowling apart from The Times - fiction from fact - I'd suggest look for the nonsense. Fiction usually has stuff happening that seems incredible - magic, amazing coincidences and the like. Jesus story has lots of those, as does the story of Hercules, Gilgamesh and King Arthur. And chances are, none of those were real (but no doubt they borrowed some inspiration from real people).
Scholar
#10 Old 9th Sep 2007 at 1:42 PM
I voted yes, but no in the Biblical way...cause I'm Muslim and that's just wack, so don't you be doing any crack! (I <3 Huston, she's funny!)
#11 Old 9th Sep 2007 at 1:45 PM
Existed yes, as for being the son of God... I'm an Atheist so my position is very clear...
Instructor
#12 Old 9th Sep 2007 at 1:46 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Doddibot
I voted no.

I don't even think there is enough evidence for him to be considered a real person. It's possible that he was real, but I seriously doubt it.

I mean, if someone found the complete works of Harry Potter in 200 years from now, without many/any historical records, they might think Harry was real. Certainly, you can see that some of the places mentioned, London for example, are later found to be real. But Harry never existed.

I think much the same thing, albeit religiously motivated rather than commercially, probably happened with Jesus.

If you want to know how one could tell the works of JK Rowling apart from The Times - fiction from fact - I'd suggest look for the nonsense. Fiction usually has stuff happening that seems incredible - magic, amazing coincidences and the like. Jesus story has lots of those, as does the story of Hercules, Gilgamesh and King Arthur. And chances are, none of those were real (but no doubt they borrowed some inspiration from real people).


Well when you put it that way I suppose, but really it's up to one's own personal beliefs.

Cass, 22, Australia
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#13 Old 9th Sep 2007 at 2:26 PM
I believe he existed...Actually... FireAzor said it for me.

But one thing that really p*sses me off with the whole Jesus/God thing is this....Why have all miracles that Jesus "apparently" did, stop? Why don't we have angels come fly down into our homes and tell us that God loves us? Why are people in 3rd world countries dying of famine, when Jesus fed thousands with a basket of fish and bread? What makes us in this day and age less worthy of these "so called" miracles.......No one has been able to answer these couple of questions EVER. Why???
Inventor
#14 Old 9th Sep 2007 at 2:37 PM
I too have to say that I believe that Jesus existed but not as the bible portray Him. I am beginning to understand that religion is upside down and in fact has no respect for the sacred. The more I come to understand things spiritual, the more things point to religion (all religion) on/as a whole as the authors/novelist's of the abomination of desolation that steals our very sense of self/heart. Religion has spread/attack the hearts of men (which is his/man's birth right) and render it useless. This making it/religion easier to control, manipulate and desecrate that which is sacred/man/woman=humanity.

Jesus with all He stood for became a portal/doorway to give legitimacy to lies, in other words, they took the Truth of who he was and all it stood for and turned it into lies. In there so-called wisdom humanity are put in a place of quandary, for in order to question the lies you have to question the reality/existence of Jesus. They negated to understand that Truth can only arrive by questioning and Truth have no fear of questionings if in fact it is the answer. How would you arrive at the answer if you don’t asked the question?

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

The holy place is the heart/soul/spirit of men/women=humanity and the abomination of desolation is a condition/disease affecting the heart. It is outrage and unhappiness, disgrace and misery, scandal and sadness, eyesore and anguish, atrocity and wretchedness, hatred and despondency, humiliation and barrenness. All these things robs the heart/holy place of joy and oneness/brotherhood.

There are thousand gates and ten thousand doors; through which shall we enter? The main thing is to guard oneself when alone, lest one go astray; then you will see how one's strength grows.

Proceed in goodness for a thousand days and there will be not enough; proceed in evil for half a minute and you will have too much. All deeds originate in the heart. All the good acts that are enumerated below begin in the heart and are completed, too, in the heart. The heart's inmost recess is the very spot where there is Heaven and where there is Hell. :sprint: :gnight:
Mad Poster
#15 Old 9th Sep 2007 at 5:45 PM
I won't believe that he existed until I have concrete evidence, and the Bible's fantastical, fictional tales aren't nearly enough proof for me. If he did I exist, I highly doubt that he was able to perform miracles and whatnot. As an atheist, my position on his divinity pretty much explains itself.

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Mad Poster
#16 Old 10th Sep 2007 at 12:44 AM
Of course I believe he existed. How else do you account for the historical beginning and evolution of Christianity otherwise? There must have been Jesus for all this to have started up. To say otherwise is just being contrary. As to whether he was God or not, well I believe he was and so do millions of people through history and today. I don't necessarily believe in all the BS established religious institutions come up with - but that is power and politics in most cases, not God.

And my pet goat agrees!!
Scholar
#17 Old 10th Sep 2007 at 2:50 AM
Quote: Originally posted by Haylifer
Clearly Jesus was an alien though :P

I'll elaborate when I'm back from work..

- Star of Bethlehem would be classed as UFO in todays times.
- Virgin birth/alien insemination?
- He had unhuman powers, curing the lame and blind - maybe he had advanced medicine.
- He "rose" to "heaven" - back up in the sky to his home planet?


Well, it's the only way to explain many of the occurrences described in the Bible. While Jesus may have very well existed, I don't see a Jewish carpenter in the desert walking on a fluid surface, changing the chemical structure of water, or curing blindness merely by physical contact.

The actual confirmation of his existence is very difficult to establish--he was a resident of a loose society that kept a minimum of records which were known to be inaccurate. We know next to nothing about individual members of the lower-classes born two-thousand years ago. It's entirely possible that there was no Jesus, and that he simply exists to be attributed to. The farther back we go, the harder it gets.

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#18 Old 10th Sep 2007 at 4:08 AM
The Romans were pretty good at keeping records, but there are no Roman documents mentioning Jesus. You'd think the Romans would have recorded someone that was getting all the Jews fired up enough to demand a crucifiction, but yet there are no Roman records of Jesus until about 300AD - once the Jesus-cult was large enough to deserve a mention.
Test Subject
#19 Old 10th Sep 2007 at 5:56 AM
I have my doubts he existed. His tale sounds like this greek god Dionysus http://www.relijournal.com/Religion...and-Jesus.15449
It makes sense.
Lab Assistant
#20 Old 15th Sep 2007 at 12:05 PM
Quote: Originally posted by edejan
Of course I believe he existed. How else do you account for the historical beginning and evolution of Christianity otherwise? There must have been Jesus for all this to have started up. To say otherwise is just being contrary. As to whether he was God or not, well I believe he was and so do millions of people through history and today. I don't necessarily believe in all the BS established religious institutions come up with - but that is power and politics in most cases, not God.

And my pet goat agrees!!


I agree with edejan. Our historical dating is BC and AD that alone shows some importance to his existence.

The miracles he performed was to show how the world will be after Armagedon the ending of this world and the beginning of the new world which will be without the influences of the Devil the master of all lies.

I believe all the religions of the world have got it right in some sense but need to be all put togther like a jigsaw puzzle and then maybe we will have the truth.

I could be persuaded he was an alien there have been a couple of books written on that idea.

I just think that everyone should be nice to each other. :handbag:

If at first you don't succeed, try and try again.
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#21 Old 15th Sep 2007 at 1:53 PM
I voted "Yes, but not as per Biblical accounts", as I believe he existed as a pretty smart guy who managed to make everyone believe he was the son of God by walking in a shallow or pouring water in a pot that had a bit of must in the bottom and letting totally drunk people have it and think it was wine (I'm an atheist).
What keeps bugging me is that a bloke born in Nazareth was portrayed looking typically European...
Lab Assistant
#22 Old 15th Sep 2007 at 5:13 PM
I say yes and no. I believe that Jesus existed because I believe in God. However, I am thankful that I was not brought up in a religious household - my parents let me choose for myself. Because of that, I was able to really look at what the Bible and religion tell us and was able to (somewhat) interpret and understand it - I was probably 16/17 when I started going that. Hence, my knowledge of how the world works greatly influenced how I interpreted the Bible.

The Bible, to me, is just a copy and pasted text written by scholars who chose to put in the good bits about religion and leave out the bad. I absolutely do not think it should be taken directly as the word of God, but as a metaphorical text. What Jesus was claimed to have done (walk on water etc.) should not overshadow the more important thing about this - that he was a kind man who helped people in need. Religion and God should be based on love, not on some outdated book that claims that a man walked on water. I hate to reference The DaVinci Code, but Dan Brown (in the form of professor Teabing) does suggest that the acts that Jesus is depicted as doing in the Bible were invented to make him look more than mortal, to look divine, so that people would follow him. I am going to have to agree there.

So, in conclusion, yes, I think Jesus existed. Do I think he is the son of God? I am not sure. However, I do not think that he walked on water and turned water into wine. Actually, the fact that Christians believe that is so ironic to me, since many tend to label magic as evil (Harry Potter book burnings being a great example) and yet, turning water into wine sounds like magic to me....

What if the Hokey Pokey IS what it's all about?

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