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Instructor
#526 Old 5th Sep 2011 at 12:29 AM
Quote: Originally posted by The Creeper
Oh, my, there are STILL people who believe that 2012 crap?!

In the first day of Jan 2013 i will be lmao watching that stupid movie.
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Lab Assistant
#527 Old 5th Sep 2011 at 11:43 PM
Quote: Originally posted by purexevil666
In the first day of Jan 2013 i will be lmao watching that stupid movie.


Isn't it wrong saying that it's crap? Some people believe in it and if it does not harm anyone else, then why not let them?
I just think it sounded kind of .. uhm, intolerant of you (and The Creeper)
Retired
retired moderator
#528 Old 6th Sep 2011 at 12:12 AM
Some things are wrong. Some claims about the universe are crap. There are 2012 believers who have committed suicide.

Crazy metaphysical claims can do a LOT of harm. I never get this "it does not harm anyone else" stuff. Look at history.

It's not intolerant to call a spade a spade unless the subject of the conversation is a tomato.

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GON OUT, BACKSON, BISY BACKSON
Lab Assistant
#529 Old 6th Sep 2011 at 12:26 AM
In a religious perspective that would be intolerant not to have respect for others belifs.

Well, it does not harm anyone but them that they believe in it. What is harming others is that they try to convince others that it is the only truth.
Scholar
#530 Old 6th Sep 2011 at 12:48 AM
While I think that people are ultimately responsible for their beliefs, people in certain situations can be susceptible to being swayed by untrue beliefs. Sometimes these beliefs are harmless, sometimes not. It depends on the person and their situation. True beliefs, on the other hand, allow a person to accurately judge the world. This is not harmful, but helpful. Discarding false beliefs in favor of true ones is what allows progress, socially, scientifically, and morally.

While tolerance of others' beliefs seems good in theory and is generally the most pragmatic approach in interaction with others, in the big picture, that person is better off having true beliefs. Further, if false beliefs are allowed to gain a strong foothold in popular opinion, social progress is stunted. To apply this to the topic at hand: if a person believes that the world will end in December of 2012, that person is likely to cease planning in the long-term. That person will likely neglect his/her finances, lose motivation to advance in his/her career, detach him/herself from relationship, etc. All of these factors are strong contributors to suicide, and to a crappy quality of life in general. By disenfranchising a person of the belief in the 2012 apocalypse, you help improve his/her quality of life. If society as a whole came to largely believe in the 2012 apocalypse, everyone would cease planning in the long-term and various essential industries/institutions of society would fail as we approached the date. The year 2012 would likely be marked by economic collapse and scarcity. It seems like an extreme example, but people have gone to war over smaller things. And all of these potential effects would be for absolutely no reason, as there is no evidence that the world will end in 2012.
Lab Assistant
#531 Old 6th Sep 2011 at 1:09 AM
I agree with you - They would be better off beliving in something else, but what I said was that I thought it was intolerant to state their believe as 'crap', because saying it's crap shows disrespect toward their right to believe. There is other ways to say you disagree with someone's belif and explain why (you did that).
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retired moderator
#532 Old 6th Sep 2011 at 1:33 AM
Not respecting what someone believes is very different from not respecting their right to believe it.

I have little or no respect for lots of beliefs - scientology, animism, anti-vaxers, rife-machine operators, Cher. Even so, I still respect people's right to believe crap.

CAW Wiki - A wiki for CAW users. Feel free to edit.

GON OUT, BACKSON, BISY BACKSON
Theorist
#533 Old 6th Sep 2011 at 11:35 AM
Right, people have the right to believe the world is flat and the moon is made of cheese, but that doesn't stop it from being a stupid, crap belief. If the majority of people believed such nonsense we'd be in trouble, because such views would be so obviously antiscience too, if they were promoting those views as truth rather than metaphorical.
Instructor
#534 Old 6th Sep 2011 at 11:38 AM
Quote: Originally posted by Chammalia
Isn't it wrong saying that it's crap? Some people believe in it and if it does not harm anyone else, then why not let them?

It's just Rumours,
They've already made lies like that!
That's what my dad said, They made one in 1990
and in 2010 some liars said that Nasa said so. but they didn't really.
I do believe there's an end. A Judgement day or end of the world. But only god knows when .
Alchemist
#535 Old 6th Sep 2011 at 12:10 PM
No, it's not wrong, people kill themselves for such things. It's not like I said that about a cult, or a religion, but about a rumour that it's most likely not to happen will certainly not happen.

Evil doesn't worry about not being good. - The Warden, Dragon Age Origins
Instructor
#536 Old 6th Sep 2011 at 7:01 PM
Well i'm just saying what i believe in myself :p
But why would those people kill themselves?
Lab Assistant
#537 Old 6th Sep 2011 at 7:20 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Mistermook
Right, people have the right to believe the world is flat and the moon is made of cheese, but that doesn't stop it from being a stupid, crap belief. If the majority of people believed such nonsense we'd be in trouble, because such views would be so obviously antiscience too, if they were promoting those views as truth rather than metaphorical.


It's not quite the same thing. That the world is round has been proved to be a fact by science, but no one has proved anything about when the apocalypse will happen.
A lot of religions believe that there is a day of judgement as a very central belief. I know that they have foretold an apocalypse many many times and that they have been wrong, but since it's never been proved when a judgement day will (if) come, I don't think you can state their belief as 'crap', when they actually do some research (though most of the times it's just an analyse of the bible ..) to state the 'exact' day.
Anyway, I mean that it's wrong to call it crap, when it's a part of their religion to believe that. Is that not the same as saying any other belief in any other religion is crap?

We're out in a discussion about morality? You don't think that there is something wrong about them believing that there will be a judgement day - you think it is unmoral of them to try and force this belief to others, and thereby harming them, because they promote it as the truth? You think it's wrong that they believe something that is not proved to be true by science?


purexevil666: They tried that more than two times
Oh, and I don't believe in this judgement day thing at all, I just don't approve of calling other religions' beliefs crap. We can't all believe the same thing, however, I don't like them for trying to force their beliefs down on others.
I don't know why they would. I heard stories about some that sold their houses and spent all their money and who took massive loans in the bank. But as I see it, that was their choice, and it'll be their 'punishment' afterwards, if their belief wasn't true.
Alchemist
#538 Old 6th Sep 2011 at 8:29 PM
But this isn't any religion's belief! They said the Mayans predicted so, YET, and there's a big "yet' here, they didn't say the world would end. Their calendar just stopped after that date. Nobody thought of any of these factors:

a. They might have run out of supplies to continue the calendar.
b. They lost interest, considering they have written over 2000 years.
c. They were colonized by the Spanish or whatever they disappeared of.
Or d, which seems the most credible: this calendar never existed.

Evil doesn't worry about not being good. - The Warden, Dragon Age Origins
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retired moderator
#539 Old 7th Sep 2011 at 1:16 AM
It doesn't matter whether it's a religious belief or not! It's a horrible idea that being a "religious" belief might make an idea immune from contempt or criticism!

What makes a belief stand or fall is the evidence behind it. Ideas with no evidence behind them, like a supernatural apocalypse, are fairly likely to deserve the label "crap".

CAW Wiki - A wiki for CAW users. Feel free to edit.

GON OUT, BACKSON, BISY BACKSON
Theorist
#540 Old 7th Sep 2011 at 7:24 AM
1. Wait for something to happen.
2. Look for a verse to interpret what happened.
3. You now have evidence.
Scholar
#541 Old 7th Sep 2011 at 8:33 AM
Quote: Originally posted by Shoosh Malooka
1. Wait for something to happen.
2. Look for a verse to interpret what happened.
3. You now have evidence.


Of course it is always possible to find a verse after the fact to fit your viewpoint. Hindsight is always 20/20. Please find me the ones that give an exact place/time/etc. before an event, and I might possibly begin to accept that belief.

Also, which interpretation is the "correct" one? I've heard/read many intrepretations of various verses by different people to contradict the positions of others using the exact same verses.

Sarcasm is a body's natural defense against stupid.
Theorist
#542 Old 7th Sep 2011 at 9:09 AM
My pastor said that the Bible gives us everything we need to know, without excess. Exact place and time is irrelevant when the signs match up in such a way that it exceeds doubt. Consider Nebuchadnezzar's dream interpreted by Daniel:

Daniel 2:38-45

Head of gold ( Babylon ), chest of silver ( Medo-Persia ), thighs of bronze ( Greece ), legs of iron ( Rome ), feet of iron and clay ( fragmented kingdoms ).

Neo-Babylon ruled the world from 612-939 BC as one of the mightiest empires of antiquity, and could aptly be described as the head of gold. This prophecy begins with Daniel's time. The Medes and Persians were the ruling world power from 539-331 BC. Under them, all taxes had to be paid in silver. Then Greece came into power until 168 BC. Greek soldiers were called "brazen coated" because their armor was all bronze. Then Rome lasted until AD 476 and was never overtaken by another world power. Instead, barbarian tribes conquered the Roman empire and divided it. Ten of these tribes evolved into modern Europe. And there are how many toes on a foot? There are 10, and they are represented by the Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Franks, Vandals, Alemannians, Sueves, Anglo-Saxons, Heruls, Lombards, and Burgundians. The rise and fall of the four world empires - Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome - are clearly foretold in the Bible and proved by the history books.

This prophecy, when put next to wild unsupported "scientific" theories such as evolution, completely and utterly dominates and demolishes them, similar to Christians over atheists.
Lab Assistant
#543 Old 7th Sep 2011 at 10:28 AM
Quote: Originally posted by kiwi_tea
It doesn't matter whether it's a religious belief or not! It's a horrible idea that being a "religious" belief might make an idea immune from contempt or criticism!

What makes a belief stand or fall is the evidence behind it. Ideas with no evidence behind them, like a supernatural apocalypse, are fairly likely to deserve the label "crap".


I didn't say you couldn't criticize the belief. I said, that I found the word 'crap' as a negative charged connotation, and I don't think you can just say something is 'crap'. There's a lot of other ways to say why you don't agree with a certain belief and why it's likely not to be true. And when they said it was 'crap', they didn't really explain why.
Alchemist
#544 Old 7th Sep 2011 at 10:34 AM
And if the Apocalypse falls on the 24th, for example, of December, 2012, or 21st of December 2013, they'll be like "I TOLD you!" ... That... If they'll have the time to do so.

Evil doesn't worry about not being good. - The Warden, Dragon Age Origins
Lab Assistant
#545 Old 7th Sep 2011 at 10:41 AM
Quote: Originally posted by The Creeper
And if the Apocalypse falls on the 24th, for example, of December, 2012, or 21st of December 2013, they'll be like "I TOLD you!" ... That... If they'll have the time to do so.



But they don't fear judgement day - Because they're going to be saved by God
Alchemist
#546 Old 7th Sep 2011 at 10:44 AM
Not everyone. Only the "good". I am Christian, and pretty religious (more or less), and I still fear death. I don't know what lies after it, and, even if it is better, I prefer my nice house, my family and my friends, rather than Paradise.

Evil doesn't worry about not being good. - The Warden, Dragon Age Origins
Instructor
#547 Old 7th Sep 2011 at 11:03 AM
After watching Torchwood I can no longer be passive about death. I hate it. It's the worst thing to happen to anyone and so many seem completely blase about it. Even those who rationalize it, that think it won't matter because they won't be able to experience being dead once dead... Isn't that the problem? I'm not so much scared of dying so much as scared of not existing anymore. Which is very likely once I die. I hope science can save as many people alive today from the inevitability of death as it can. I'm only 23 and I am already having panic attacks at the mere thought of it. I can't put forth the faith to believe in an after life even though it would keep me sane. Now there are NDE... but I'm almost certain those are hallucinations due to a lack of sufficient oxygen to the brain. How can anyone willing accept death?
Lab Assistant
#548 Old 7th Sep 2011 at 11:48 AM
Quote: Originally posted by The Creeper
Not everyone. Only the "good". I am Christian, and pretty religious (more or less), and I still fear death. I don't know what lies after it, and, even if it is better, I prefer my nice house, my family and my friends, rather than Paradise.


It depends. Some will say that 'the good' is the ones who believe in God.
Test Subject
#549 Old 19th Sep 2011 at 1:08 AM
"After watching Torchwood I can no longer be passive about death. I hate it. It's the worst thing to happen to anyone and so many seem completely blase about it. Even those who rationalize it, that think it won't matter because they won't be able to experience being dead once dead... Isn't that the problem? I'm not so much scared of dying so much as scared of not existing anymore. Which is very likely once I die. I hope science can save as many people alive today from the inevitability of death as it can. I'm only 23 and I am already having panic attacks at the mere thought of it. I can't put forth the faith to believe in an after life even though it would keep me sane. Now there are NDE... but I'm almost certain those are hallucinations due to a lack of sufficient oxygen to the brain. How can anyone willing accept death?"


thank you! im not the only one. im 21 and i know that quarter of my life has now gone, spending a good part of that time with nothing but tragic or terrible situations (bit like series of unfortunate events) i can safely say i am the worlds oldest 21 year old, i am soooo sooo bitter, grumpy and yep you guesed it self critical, but im wiser then you.

so that makes me a fool.

anyway my conclusion is that death isnt so bad its the not existing part after death. each day i waste sleeping in or modding the sims is a gift, each day is bringing me closer to the only certainty we all have, the scary bit?

how depressing

it sounds crazy but its true, how would you like to exist one minute and then not exist the next. you imagine you will be in a black empty vied space. you wont you will just not see anything no void no black no you. it hurts just thinking about it.

i have started to not think about it because, i too have panic attacks about it, instead come up with funny little things that happen when you die, my personal best is that we just level up. another one is that we just re spawn. i like the re spawn theory it makes death seam so calm, then it dawned on me. the not existing is something i only need to worry about after i do not exist.

you see my point here. it doesn't matter what you think. your all wrong, and you could never know what death will be like. but if we are lucky and are able to know and death turns out to be something silly and so typically in sync with the unpredictability of life, it could be quite funny in the end... who knows.
Test Subject
#550 Old 19th Sep 2011 at 1:52 AM
Just like to say that i am a Religious non religious believer in all and none from time to time and all the time. it really depends what challenges life has for me today because there is a lesson we can take from each religion and apply its message.

On the subject of god in a double post, is it possible to feal that god is part of me, god is an external force that has existence in our heads , my conciousness and inner voice is an extension of god. in a way i am god, because i am witnessing my own reality. in same way you are god and your friend and her aunty brenda, im a bit strange in thinking that god is me? or am i? in for example Christian terms god is everywhere and everything, he is omnipotent and knows everything i know, plus what you know and everyone and everything knows so he is a part of me.

i mean absolutely no offence at all by this. (absolution is a term that i do hope works)

we all have faith in god because we sometimes have a hard time believing in ourselves. but by placing faith in god are we not just makeing asumptions that something is going to go in our favour, a prayer is a request if i am correct, we are asking ourselves to do better or make something happen

i hope this makes sense. im not saying that your god or my god or even your gods do not exist because they do, i am also not saying that i am a higher being and should be worshiped, i am actually saying that we are god and he is us, he exists as the creator of the reality we know and we are not observers of life, we are part of it the gift of life is esenually what god is it not?

i say he because i am a he so if i am him he is me, so dont tell me off ok

so what is this theory of mine? it is just an understanding that as humans over the years we have sometimes miss understood things (after this post im sure will happen again). and what we all know to be the written word of god is actually written word of man, dictated but not read, 1000s of years ago. its not going to be correct or as it was back then. its like if i said dog and it over the years changed to doge then doge viper you see, now we are in a hole new ball game.

here is a funny thought, because god didn't say anything about immorally on the computer does that make it fine? the modern word of god is so out of date its a miracle that it is still taken as is and not amended in places. This is because the holly books are guidelines.

so what if religion was trying to tell us to have faith in ourselves, not take all of the supposed events literally because they are all great stories with excellent morals teaching, they are not meant to be quoted as fact. and that we can have faith in ourselves and ask for forgiveness or to improve our situations by asking god.

if you all became multi relgious you may see what im trying to say.
 
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