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Instructor
#101 Old 12th Dec 2015 at 6:47 PM
Quote: Originally posted by hugbug993
You do realize that in your country (Sweden), feminism has been around since the 1600's and socialism was invented in 1827, right?


I do,lol. Been there,done that and survived it. We literally export this shit. And because of that I have to agree with it? I'm one of the happy few who managed to get away from a seriously disturbed political cult...

"The only reason people get lost in thought is because it's unfamiliar territory. "
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Top Secret Researcher
#102 Old 12th Dec 2015 at 6:49 PM
Okay, so how did feminism develop from an ideology that didn't exist until a century afterwards?

My MTS writing group, The Story Board
Instructor
#103 Old 12th Dec 2015 at 7:02 PM
Quote: Originally posted by hugbug993
Okay, so how did feminism develop from an ideology that didn't exist until a century afterwards?


The mainstream feminism that people subscribe to today, generally comes from the 60´s movements in USA,the third wave and the so called post-feminist era (present day). All heavily influenced by socialism,especially in Sweden where "socially constructed gender-roles" proceeds over more important political issues,like where the hell people are going to live when there is no housing, or what is actually happening to our economical system when globalism is taking over. Meaning it is more important to paint vaginal wall-art on citywalls,than to actually having functional homes in said houses. Not to mention the gender of God! Feminism serves no purpose what so ever in a modern,enlightened world,that's all.

"The only reason people get lost in thought is because it's unfamiliar territory. "
Top Secret Researcher
#104 Old 12th Dec 2015 at 7:09 PM
But socialism is all about making sure that everyone has housing and whatnot.

I wouldn't necessarily agree that it has no place in a modern, enlightened world. I mean, feminism is the idea that you treat people as people, no matter their gender. While it sounds like some idiots are in charge over there, you can't really have an enlightened society without treating people equally.

Like I said in my first post here, it's a tool. If someone uses it badly, that's not the tool's fault.

My MTS writing group, The Story Board
Instructor
#105 Old 12th Dec 2015 at 7:23 PM
Socialism is about justice for the workers. Class against class,even if that means picking up arms and go to war for it. Socialism is materialistic and accepts no soul or human spirit as a driving force behind evolution. And of course there is nothing wrong with being a socialist if that is what one is. But why cover that up in feminism? The idea that people are people has been around since there where people...,but the larger Marxist branch of feminism is alas supremacist at the core,stating that women and to some extent gay and/ or black people,actually are better than others. Like any process it has degenerated and causes harm instead of just fading out as should be in a natural world.So as a tool feminism is no longer workable from a perspective of wanting an equal world. This is just my opinion of course. But I do think feminism actually brainwashes the young.

"The only reason people get lost in thought is because it's unfamiliar territory. "
Top Secret Researcher
#106 Old 12th Dec 2015 at 7:40 PM
Class against class is not socialism. That is Marxism. Socialism predates Marxism, if if Marx did steal the term. And modern socialism bears no resemblance to Marx's ideals.

And no, feminism does not state that women, gay people, and black people are better than others. It states that women are equal to men. While orientation and race do come into the intersectionalist parts of it, not all feminism covers the intersections. Even if it did, exactly what does feminism do to make them "superior"? Give them the same rights as others?

And no, the idea that people are people has not been around forever. Look at the history of any culture. They considered themselves above others. Many of them justified slavery, murder, theft, war, etc. because their opponents were less worthy than they were. Oh, and there's been far too much history where women were pretty much the property of men. In my country, marital rape was legal until just a few decades ago. Maybe that hasn't been the case for your country, but considering that you had feminist movements since well before the 60's, obviously they felt there were some deficiencies.

Where, exactly, are you getting your information from?

My MTS writing group, The Story Board
Instructor
#107 Old 12th Dec 2015 at 8:17 PM Last edited by sayyadina : 12th Dec 2015 at 8:52 PM.
Well,because there is no static truth in what people know or believe about any ideology,we most certainly can have different views and sources on the same bloody thing I get my "information" partly from experience (being raised in socialist/feminist format,being a former feminist etc.), and from an extensive study of feminist blogs,feminist books and from what people -both for and against- actually say about feminism when they say something, (i.e what is rather than what I want it to be.) But that is beside the point...

And you are right of course,Aztecs for example,where not as equal as we are today,they did play football with human skulls. And that suddenly justifies feminism?

Common sense should tell any normal healthy lawmaker that marital rape is amoral and wrong. If you want to give feminism credit for the fact that good laws comes along occasionally,then do. Still, if you put Matriarchy in the place of Patriarchy,you end up having the same thing just the other way around,right? Feminist analysis thus only goes as far as to say that women are not equal to men because they never have been equal. So what? Does not women count for anything by themselves? I for one does not wish to be equal to any man,I want to be a woman, and feel pride in my own without having to earn the same amount of money as my husband and his mediocre male brothers and cousins in order to be considered a Human Being in the modern world.

Personally I'm sick of having feminist bullies telling me I should get a divorce or I should pay my own meal also on my birthday and I should in the very best of worlds, also be a politically correct lesbian -even if every fiber in my poor hormonal configuration opposes this by sheer,natural force. (Sorry I can´t choose). The world hence need alternatives,like an even more modern idea that says people can be free. Free!

Last time I talked to a feminist she concluded my thoughts on the matter by saying: "Then you are an individualist-feminist,and it is ok. to release you anger". A man later said "How can you not be feminist,are you not a woman" ? The kind of rhetoric's that immediately forces you to reply: "No,I am probably a man or an ape or a rapist, sorry"...

Being woman today is being forced to join feminism because there are no alternatives for women not to be political about their genitalia and their money,but the same can be said about prostitutes.

And this is liberating people how?

"The only reason people get lost in thought is because it's unfamiliar territory. "
Top Secret Researcher
#108 Old 12th Dec 2015 at 9:05 PM
Quote: Originally posted by sayyadina
And you are right of course,Aztecs for example,where not as equal as we are today,they did play football with human skulls. And that suddenly justifies feminism?


The fact that people have not been treated equally - and still aren't - is a good indication that we need to do something about it.

Not to mention that that was a response to you saying that everyone has had the idea that all people are people. Your assertion that everyone knew all people are people was clearly wrong.

Quote: Originally posted by sayyadina
Common sense should tell any normal healthy lawmaker that marital rape is amoral and wrong. If you want to give feminism credit for the fact that good laws comes along occasionally,then do.


We got those laws because the feminist movement lobbied for them - and only because. Before that, the lawmakers here were normal for their time - meaning misogynistic and believing a woman's body belonged to her husband. If it weren't for that movement, I wouldn't have the freedom to vote, wouldn't be able to own property (unless it belonged to a husband I don't want and he died and we had no sons), and probably would have to find a husband to financially support me instead of doing it on my own. It's been responsible for a lot of things, and there are still issues in my country that need fixing.

Quote: Originally posted by sayyadina
Still, if you put Matriarchy in the place of Patriarchy,you end up having the same thing just the other way around,right?


Obviously, and who exactly is proposing a matriarchy instead? Also, you're saying that you do have a patriarchy, though that might be poor phrasing on your part.

Quote: Originally posted by sayyadina
Feminist analysis thus only goes as far as to say that women are not equal to men because they never have been equal. So what? Does not women count for anything by themselves? I for one does not wish to be equal to any man,I want to be a woman, and feel pride in my own without having to earn the same amount of money as my husband and his mediocre male brothers and cousins in order to be considered a Human Being in the modern world.


And if an inequality does exist, why take pride in getting the scraps from the table? If you're paid less just because you're a woman and not because you're doing less work, is that right? If you don't have the right to choose the life you're given, is that right?

And you're saying that you don't to be equal to men. So you don't want the same rights as a man? You want men to be worth more than you in the eyes of the law?

Quote: Originally posted by sayyadina
Personally I'm sick of having feminist bullies telling me I should get a divorce or I should pay my own meal also on my birthday and I should in the very best of worlds, also be a politically correct lesbian -even if every fiber in my poor hormonal configuration opposes this by sheer,natural force. (Sorry I can´t choose).


Whoever is saying that is a moron and that's entirely wrong. That's still not feminism, or everything that feminism is. That or you're inflating what people are saying.

Quote: Originally posted by sayyadina
Last time I talked to a feminist she concluded my thoughts on the matter by saying: "Then you are an individualist-feminist,and it is ok. to release you anger". [snip]

Being woman today is being forced to join feminism because there are no alternatives for women not to be political about their genitalia.

Not being feminist (or atheist as well) is unthinkable to many.


Again, feminism is the idea that women are equal to men. Are you saying that you're inferior to men? Because if not, then you are a feminist, even if you don't identify as a member of the political party that's taken on the name.

My MTS writing group, The Story Board
Instructor
#109 Old 12th Dec 2015 at 9:42 PM Last edited by sayyadina : 13th Dec 2015 at 1:45 AM.
Oh my...you really like to debate for the sake of being right,don´t you? I do not. Have I said that "nothing needs to be done about it" ? No..I just said feminism is not the solution. You clearly think it is the only path,and it seems you are prepared to go to lengths in order to prove that ideological principle and a feminist ideal makes any other argument invalid. Which indeed makes the world a better place.For you

You are however trying to pick what I say apart,so maybe I should reply to that:

Quote: "We got those laws because the feminist movement lobbied for them - and only because."

This might be true in your country. I do not know where you live exactly,so I cannot or will not argue with that. In Europe however,this is not the case historically or otherwise. Men treated women good also before feminism came into the picture.

Quote: "Obviously, and who exactly is proposing a matriarchy instead? Also, you're saying that you do have a patriarchy, though that might be poor phrasing on your part."

Feminism is proposing that patriarchy is the enemy. Among fem.separatist and fem.radicals a matriarch society is very much preferred.

(edit: If you take time to read and reflect on some important feminist intellectuals/ thinkers,you will discover this detail to be a vital part of the whole idea.)

" And if an inequality does exist, why take pride in getting the scraps from the table? "

-scraps from the table....Full of hatred,are we? I would rather say: I have what I have and no one has "more than me" until I decide to believe so,which I do not. I have no need for envy. This is more of an existential ,philosophical,perhaps personal thing, not a political one

Quote: "That's still not feminism, or everything that feminism is. That or you're inflating what people are saying.

Thats right,blame me if it makes you feel better. I cannot take responsibility for what you just read into what I said,only you can do that.

Quote: "Because if not, then you are a feminist, even if you don't identify as a member of the political party that's taken on the name."

...sigh...but I guess I gave it to you. Can I label you what ever I want as well? Okay.

edit: I gave this some afterthought and I feel that I want to add that I identify mainly with neo-pagan beliefs since many years back,and that I basically dislike how feminism over time (30 years or so) has infiltrated the more spiritually oriented communities to a degree where one can only use words like "witch-hunt" and "persecution" at best, -at least in my parts of the world. I cannot combine any kind of feminist views with long held pagan values. Just wanted to clarify a bit

You also make a strong distinction between Socialism and Marxism. (Most people don´t I'm afraid.) The type of socialism you refer to as true socialism,I usually call washed out collectivism (social democats and the like) and /or National Socialism in rare cases ("nazism") .

What can be learned from our conversation though, is perhaps that feminism as a widely popular concept in various sub-cultures around the world, is interpreted differently depending on age (what generation one belongs to) and what (political?) culture one currently resides in. And that feminism is changing over time. Still,that fact does not erase history. Let me see: If I hypothetically defended "Nazism" or "Fascism" the same way that some people defend "Feminism" or "Liberalism",I would probably be sent to jail.

"The only reason people get lost in thought is because it's unfamiliar territory. "
Lab Assistant
#110 Old 14th Dec 2015 at 2:00 AM
The whole movement is nothing but a headache now. No matter what side you take, you'll be bashed. Anti-feminist? You don't believe in equal rights. Pro-feminist? Man-hater. You can't win.
Forum Resident
#111 Old 15th Dec 2015 at 8:17 AM
Quote: Originally posted by sayyadina
Oh my...you really like to debate for the sake of being right,don´t you? I do not. Have I said that "nothing needs to be done about it" ? No..I just said feminism is not the solution. You clearly think it is the only path,and it seems you are prepared to go to lengths in order to prove that ideological principle and a feminist ideal makes any other argument invalid. Which indeed makes the world a better place.For you


I probably shouldn't try to get involved, but this is annoying me, so I'm going to.

Feminism, according to the Oxford English Dictionary, is the advocacy of women’s rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes (other dictionaries give similar definitions). You have agreed that women should not be inferior to men purely because of their sex, that this happens at present and something needs to be done... but feminism is not the solution??? How do this make any sense to you? A solution to inequality of the sexes is feminism - that's the definition.

Sure, there are many different feminists with different ideas, and you may not agree with all of them. There are a few who think that the world would be a better place if men did not exist at all, or if they were inferior to women - but those ideas are restricted to a tiny minority, while most feminists think they're crazy.

Quote: Originally posted by sayyadina
This might be true in your country. I do not know where you live exactly,so I cannot or will not argue with that. In Europe however,this is not the case historically or otherwise. Men treated women good also before feminism came into the picture.


People who campaigned to end sexist laws, throughout history, were feminist by definition. In Europe and elsewhere. They were also usually women, who demanded rights from the men in power who tended to be reluctant to give it. Exactly the same way poorer men and people of minority ethnicities demanded rights, supported by some of those with power but opposed by many others. I suggest you read about the history of women's suffrage, which is still ongoing today.

I'm not going to pick apart the rest of your comments, because I'm not convinced you're actually comprehending hugbug's comments and no doubt mine won't sink in either. I appreciate that English may not be your first language, and having a debate in a foreign language is hard. But you just don't seem to be able to put together something that makes sense. I did want to talk about your last paragraph, because I find your comparisons appalling.

Quote: Originally posted by sayyadina
What can be learned from our conversation though, is perhaps that feminism as a widely popular concept in various sub-cultures around the world, is interpreted differently depending on age (what generation one belongs to) and what (political?) culture one currently resides in. And that feminism is changing over time. Still,that fact does not erase history. Let me see: If I hypothetically defended "Nazism" or "Fascism" the same way that some people defend "Feminism" or "Liberalism",I would probably be sent to jail.


Yes, there are a few people who called themselves feminists who had/have some awful and stupid ideas. Has any feminist, even one who isn't recognised as such by most other feminists, actually put those ideas into action? What history are you talking about?

Nazism actually killed millions of people. Because they were mentally ill, or disabled, or the wrong race, or because they disagreed with the regime. Are you seriously saying that a defence of feminism is the same as a defence of nazism? Please, please, think about what you're saying here. Because it's really and truly awful.
Instructor
#112 Old 27th Dec 2015 at 6:55 PM
Quote: Originally posted by sayyadina
Let me see: If I hypothetically defended "Nazism" or "Fascism" the same way that some people defend "Feminism" or "Liberalism",I would probably be sent to jail.


Wait... did you just equate Nazism and/or fascism to feminism and/or liberalism?
Top Secret Researcher
#113 Old 30th Dec 2015 at 1:39 AM
Quote: Originally posted by GabyBee
Wait... did you just equate Nazism and/or fascism to feminism and/or liberalism?


This seems rather relevant.



(Context: She's getting locked away for brainwashing all women in the world to become 50's housewives)

My MTS writing group, The Story Board
Instructor
#114 Old 2nd Jan 2016 at 4:50 AM
It's impossible to speak on Feminism without being misunderstood, mainly because "Feminism" has come to mean so many things. Feminism in it's purest state, just as an ideology, just seems like a given. I agree with it wholeheartedly, and will usually try to defend it to the best of my ability. Feminism politically is a whole other animal, though. There's countless divisions and communities that have sprouted up, but where mainstream feminism is concerned I don't personally feel comfortable identifying with it. Just, in it's current state, there's so many issues,that I don't have the energy to add a thousand disclaimers every time I tell someone I'm a feminist. So, honestly, I just sorta....dodge it. It's a serious debate with a lot of room for discussing actual problems, but it's started veering off to a whole other place lately because people don't want to analyze anything they're saying.

Mainly, I don't like the western centrism and the erasure and silencing of other marginalized groups. Nuance is vital in these debates, but people are being taught to have a really black-and-white perception of the problem, and oftentimes can't formulate their arguments since they don't understand the basic framework of their own ideology. And the reason this happens is because we put people, especially teenagers, in a position where they're scared ask questions. Questions are wonderful, they are healthy and putting an idea into perspective is necessary if we really want to understand something. I understand being frustrated, but patience is important. I also think a lot of people are operating under the impression that they've somehow reached a fully """"enlightened"""" state of mind, and are just sooooOOOOOOooo educated that there couldn't possibly be anything left to learn.

Iunno. I'm tired.
Lab Assistant
#115 Old 9th Jan 2016 at 7:57 PM
I watched the newest episode of Girls Meets World, "Girl Meets STEM". I have to say, it did a good job tackling the issues of feminism and equality. No spoilers but it showed just how clouded this ideology can get with so many egos and personalities clashing.
Instructor
#116 Old 11th Mar 2016 at 8:11 PM
Quote: Originally posted by ribbonista
It's impossible to speak on Feminism without being misunderstood, mainly because "Feminism" has come to mean so many things. Feminism in it's purest state, just as an ideology, just seems like a given. I agree with it wholeheartedly, and will usually try to defend it to the best of my ability. Feminism politically is a whole other animal, though. There's countless divisions and communities that have sprouted up, but where mainstream feminism is concerned I don't personally feel comfortable identifying with it. Just, in it's current state, there's so many issues,that I don't have the energy to add a thousand disclaimers every time I tell someone I'm a feminist. So, honestly, I just sorta....dodge it. It's a serious debate with a lot of room for discussing actual problems, but it's started veering off to a whole other place lately because people don't want to analyze anything they're saying.

Mainly, I don't like the western centrism and the erasure and silencing of other marginalized groups. Nuance is vital in these debates, but people are being taught to have a really black-and-white perception of the problem, and oftentimes can't formulate their arguments since they don't understand the basic framework of their own ideology. And the reason this happens is because we put people, especially teenagers, in a position where they're scared ask questions. Questions are wonderful, they are healthy and putting an idea into perspective is necessary if we really want to understand something. I understand being frustrated, but patience is important. I also think a lot of people are operating under the impression that they've somehow reached a fully """"enlightened"""" state of mind, and are just sooooOOOOOOooo educated that there couldn't possibly be anything left to learn.


dunno. I'm tired.


Smartest thing Ive heard so far. If people only have one eye,then one- eyed it is.

"The only reason people get lost in thought is because it's unfamiliar territory. "
Test Subject
#117 Old 21st Mar 2016 at 10:21 AM
Proud southern feminist, born and raised. I know the meaning of sex-based oppression and I refuse to not actively fight it. If you consider anything one gender can do and that the other can do just as well, then you are a feminist, plain and simple. Be proud and fight oppression in all ways.
Lab Assistant
#118 Old 2nd Aug 2016 at 7:46 PM
To me feminism is about showing the world that women are equal to men.
Nothing more.

Women are equal to men and I can't stand the demeaning men who make nasty comments in response to this, or the man hating female who take the opportunity try to make women seem better than men. It's sad.

The fact that we have to raise awareness about equality is so heartbreaking to me. We can't just be man, woman, gay, straight, trans, masculine , feminine, religious, skeptic, conservative, liberal ...accept it, and not force what we believe we are or what is "right" on everyone else.
Why is respect hard to practice?

Been downloading like crazy...so many great creators here! Neglecting forums...will be back soon...ish.
Lab Assistant
#119 Old 2nd Aug 2016 at 9:38 PM
@Lawli, I am loving your responses way too much on these threads :P
Forum Resident
#120 Old 4th Sep 2016 at 12:32 AM Last edited by Averex : 4th Sep 2016 at 3:29 AM.
I really can't agree with modern feminism anymore. The movement has gotten way too ridiculous, at least in the Western world. It claims that it's for equality for both genders but doesn't even talk about men's issues UNLESS it impacts women in some sort of way as well. Not to mention that they don't even seem to work to end sexism in countries that actually still NEED feminism (like Middle Eastern countries where women are shunned for even being seen in public and men can rape women and the women are blamed). "No, let's not focus on countries where women don't have the rights they have here, let's just continue to complain about how we're still supposedly 'oppressed' and try to silence anyone who tries to argue a different point." I'm more in support of egalitarianism, which looks at issues and works to solve them in regards to both genders, instead of just focusing on women.

And no, it's not hypocritical to not be a feminist if you're a woman. I for one recognize the great strides that feminists made back when gender equality was still a major issue in the West (pre-21st century) and appreciate them. However, calling myself a feminist now would imply that I agree with what feminism is today. Feminism today is plagued with women who start hashtags like "#killallmen" or "#allmenarepigs" and do things like look at rape cases with a "guilty until proven innocent" mindset. And sorry, I don't want to align myself with a movement that does things like that.

UPDATE: Lol already getting disagrees...not really surprised though since SJWs seem to dominate the Internet nowadays

The simmer formerly known as Averex
My Claim to Fame
Lab Assistant
#121 Old 7th Sep 2016 at 12:51 AM
Well, that's a cherry-picking argument, and there's no one way to be a feminist and no one way feminists think or act. I've seen this type of argument a lot lately--if the main way one has to criticize feminism is to cherry-pick or generalization, it's not really saying much of anything. Whatever happened to real arguments with something to back them up?

Suggesting feminists have to always be good and crusaders for everyone is an unrealistic expectation. It's a set up to guarantee failure, and a technique to try to shut people up.

Personally, I wonder why being a feminist means I have to care about everyone. I don't, because it's impossible. I don't have to help anyone, and I don't have to please anyone, and no one gets to tell me how I should think and feel. And I should still be able to demand respect, because I'm a human being. I shouldn't have to jump through hoops to get it, and neither should anyone else.
Instructor
#122 Old 7th Sep 2016 at 5:18 PM
Quote: Originally posted by caitawesome
Well, that's a cherry-picking argument, and there's no one way to be a feminist and no one way feminists think or act. I've seen this type of argument a lot lately--if the main way one has to criticize feminism is to cherry-pick or generalization, it's not really saying much of anything. Whatever happened to real arguments with something to back them up?

Suggesting feminists have to always be good and crusaders for everyone is an unrealistic expectation. It's a set up to guarantee failure, and a technique to try to shut people up.

Personally, I wonder why being a feminist means I have to care about everyone. I don't, because it's impossible. I don't have to help anyone, and I don't have to please anyone, and no one gets to tell me how I should think and feel. And I should still be able to demand respect, because I'm a human being. I shouldn't have to jump through hoops to get it, and neither should anyone else.


There's a new term that completely removes the more... extreme aspects of modern feminism called "egalitarianism." I consider myself a complete anti-feminist, but an egalitarian in every way.

While the dictionary definition of feminism sounds reasonable, applied feminism is highly sexist toward men. It acts in many ways like a religion with "The Patriarchy" acting as their non-existent enemy. In certain countries, women are oppressed, but not in the western world, which leads to a social movement that invents imaginary problems as an excuse to belittle others.

Some of the most common arguments made for the existence of patriarchy are the "wage gap" and "rape culture." The "wage gap" has been debunked numerous times, since it is simply the product of poor statistical analysis, as opposed to any form of systematic oppression. Essentially, when the average salaries of full-time working men and women are compared, men make more than women. However, this does not take into account the hours worked or the typical differences between the career ambitions of men and women.

As for the "rape culture" concept, rape is often regarded as a worse crime than murder socially-speaking. Rapists, for example, are murdered at a disproportional rate in prison. As for taking rape accusations at an accuser's word, it is unfortunate that rape is a difficult crime to prove, but the accused is and should always be considered innocent until proven guilty. The opposite leads to innocent people being fined, imprisoned, or executed for crimes they did not commit. If you would like an example of this in action, look no further than the Salem witch trials.

While it is true that you do not need to advocate for universal equality, you must do that if you are going to claim that as the definition of feminism. To do otherwise would be hypocrisy (of course, feminists are neeeeeeevvvvvvveeer hypocritical, right?)
Forum Resident
#123 Old 8th Sep 2016 at 1:10 PM
Quote: Originally posted by pikeman101
The "wage gap" has been debunked numerous times, since it is simply the product of poor statistical analysis, as opposed to any form of systematic oppression. Essentially, when the average salaries of full-time working men and women are compared, men make more than women. However, this does not take into account the hours worked or the typical differences between the career ambitions of men and women.


I want to talk about the wage gap, because (a) comments like this annoy me, and (b) it's actually a lot more complicated than people think. The wage gap is actually a combination of four different things, which all combine to make women earn less than men - and all four have different issues and different solutions.

Women are more likely work less due to caring responsibilities. Women are more likely to take career breaks, and more likely to work part time. Some of this is unavoidable - giving birth is traumatic to your body and you need a break to recover, and breastfeeding is something only women can do. But men also appreciate the chance to look after their children, and encouraging this via legally required paternity leave and trying to change the culture that says men 'shouldn't' be the stay-at-home parent will help both genders.

However, even when you measure pay per hour or fulltime equivalent, women are still paid less.

Industries which employ a majority of women tend to pay less than industries that employ a majority of men. Our society values jobs that are typically seen as 'masculine', like finance and mining, to jobs that are typically seen as 'feminine', like teaching or social work - or at any rate they are paid less. Obviously, there are exceptions. Changing this would be harder, and presumably is something that each industry needs to work on separately - but helping men realise they could be midwives, or women that they could be engineers, is good for everyone who might enjoy those jobs but are put off by society's idea of an 'appropriate' job for their gender.

However, even when you measure pay in each industry, the wage gap is (almost) always there - though it varies enormously between industries. Interestingly, industries like finance with higher average pay tend to have bigger gaps than industries like retail with lower average pay.

Women are less likely to have more senior jobs than men. Some of that is due to the first point, as women who have taken career breaks are less likely to get promoted. But it is also due to assumptions people implicitly make, about how dedicated women are to their jobs, or how capable women are at leading. There are lots of personality traits that are seen as 'good manager/leader skills' in a man, but 'bossy' or 'strident' or other unpleasant traits in a woman. It's usually subconscious bias rather than conscious sexism, but it is there. Look at politicians - female politicians are criticised for much less dishonesty than male politicians.

However, there are still industries, and job levels, where the men are still paid more than women to do the same job. Not all of them, and probably not most, but many of the best-paid. Which is a problem.

Women get paid less than men for the same job. As I said, not all jobs, but many of the better paid. But men are more likely to negotiate a higher pay when they get a job, are more likely to ask for a raise, and are more likely to get it when they ask.

So the end result is that the wage gap is several things, not just one, and is still a thing and a problem. It's not usually explicit sexism, and probably the people doing it don't realise they are. Subconscious bias is difficult because it's something we all have: you, me, everyone. We learn it from society as we are growing up, and it's hard to identify in ourselves and very hard to change. All we can do is do our best to think about it and try not to let it influence our decisions, and hope to bring up the next generation with less.
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#124 Old 9th Sep 2016 at 7:25 PM
Quote: Originally posted by caitawesome
Personally, I wonder why being a feminist means I have to care about everyone.

Well feminists always seem to want everyone to care about them/women in general, sooo...

The simmer formerly known as Averex
My Claim to Fame
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#125 Old 9th Sep 2016 at 7:31 PM
Quote: Originally posted by pikeman101
Some of the most common arguments made for the existence of patriarchy are the "wage gap" and "rape culture."

Yeah. If you say that we're living in a rape culture in the Western world, you clearly do not understand the definition of the term.

Definition: "a setting in which rape is pervasive and normalized due to societal attitudes about gender and sexuality"

Who the fuck in the Western world normalizes rape? Rape is frowned-upon, and rapists are arrested. Feminists seem to think that the existence of rape in general is equivalent to living in a rape culture, and that's not the case.

The Middle East is an example of a real rape culture. Why? Because rape is literally a part of the culture. Rape, however, is not a part of Western culture.

If you're one of the people who say people in the West are living in a rape culture, please stop. You're wrong.

The simmer formerly known as Averex
My Claim to Fame
 
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