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Test Subject
Original Poster
#1 Old 18th Apr 2018 at 2:24 AM

This user has the following games installed:

Sims 2, University, Nightlife, Open for Business, Pets, Seasons, Bon Voyage, Free Time, Apartment Life
Default Load Order - alphabetical, or what the HCDU says?
(I have the Ultimate Collection and Windows 8.1)

I'm trying to make sure certain hacks load after others, and am confused by what I am reading out there about Load Order. Some people say it is alphabetical (by folder, then by file name), and others say that the Hack Conflict Detection Utility lists the hacks in load order. So I've printed out my first Possible Conflicts list... and the HCDU often does not list the hacks in alphabetical order!

Here is an example:

*** POSSIBLE CONFLICT DETECTED ***
File Type: BHAV
Procedure Name: Sub - Process
Group ID: 0x7F17E3A4
Instance ID: 0x00002002
Packages Containing This Procedure:
\downloads\Game Mods\Simbology hacks\school & univ hacks\No Finals at Night.package
\downloads\Game Mods\Simlogical hacks\new for UC\ijUniBreakPatch.package
\downloads\Game Mods\MATY hacks\director's cut items a la Pescado\new items for UC\apthack.package

...Well, I read somewhere to let No Finals at Night load after apthack. And if I went by the order in my downloads\Game Mods folder, that should be what's happening. But the HCDU seems to be saying that my MATY hacks subfolder is loading AFTER my Simbology and Simlogical folders! (In fact, in every instance of a Possible Conflict, the MATY subfolder appears last on the list... even after my "zzz_Load These Last" folder!)

But is that in fact what's going on -- the MATY subfolder loading after all others? If so, how do I make my MATY subfolder load first, if it's not by alphabetical order?
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Mad Poster
#2 Old 18th Apr 2018 at 2:41 AM
Too many subfolders, I'd guess. The game is loading folders with fewer subfolders first.
Mad Poster
#3 Old 18th Apr 2018 at 5:13 AM
I've read otherwise, but aren't sure enough to advise. There IS more info out there.

Stand up, speak out. Just not to me..
Field Researcher
#4 Old 18th Apr 2018 at 7:46 AM
What about the game-engine do a lexicograhic sort of all the files in \Downloads before loading to load in alphabetical order. It's fast and efficient (cf File Explorer - change sortorder e g from sort by Name to sort by date). To me your HCDU-list is in inverted alphabetical order (first letters N, i, a)
Undead Molten Llama
#5 Old 18th Apr 2018 at 8:33 AM
Computers do everything alphanumerically, numbers first, then letters. Folders load before files not in any folders, so any folders in your "Downloads" folder (and all of the files within them) will load, in alphanumeric order, before any loose files in the Downloads folder. Within each subfolder, any folders in that subfolder will load before the loose files, etc.. The HCDU will show the conflicts regardless of load order, and I believe (though I'm not sure) that they're always listed in reverse alphabetical order and therefore in reverse load order. So, the first mod on the list in the HCDU is the one currently taking precedence. (Because load order doesn't fix conflicts at all. It only changes which mod "overwrites" the function(s) of the other(s). In some cases this means that the "overwritten" mod(s) no longer functions at all and can/should be removed. But not always because some of it may still be working. It depends on the mods in question.)

Also, from what I understand, the apthack mod isn't needed anymore, as Maxis patched everything that that mod fixed. (Pes made the mod before EA released the AL patch.)

I'm mostly found on (and mostly upload to) Tumblr these days because, alas, there are only 24 hours in a day.
Muh Simblr! | An index of my downloads on Tumblr.
Mad Poster
#6 Old 18th Apr 2018 at 12:55 PM
My HCDU is always in alphabetical order.
Mad Poster
#7 Old 18th Apr 2018 at 2:53 PM
To have mods that say they need to load last you need to make a folder in your download folder called zzz and place all mods that need to load last in there.
If by some chance you have mods that need to load last and one says to load after everything then make a sub-folder inside for all mods starting the folder with aaa and make another folder starting with zzz and use this one to place your must load after everything mods.

Keep sub-folders to a minimum at all cost.

All my Beginning Hoods here at MTS. http://www.modthesims.info/member.php?u=7749491
All my Beginning Hoods as Shopping Districts plus Old Town. http://www.modthesims.info/download.php?t=523417
MooVille, a tribute to Mootilda and her fabulous lots http://www.modthesims.info/download.php?t=534158
Undead Molten Llama
#8 Old 18th Apr 2018 at 3:23 PM
Quote: Originally posted by marka93
To have mods that say they need to load last you need to make a folder in your download folder called zzz and place all mods that need to load last in there.


This is true, but be advised that it would work only if the mod that needs to load first isn't loose in the Downloads folder. (Meaning, not in any subfolder) or loose in a general "Mods" subfolder that contains a "zzz" sub-subfolder. Files that are loose in the Downloads folder will load last because anything in subfolders will load before the loose files. But since most people have a subfolder of their Downloads folder where they keep all hacks/mods, that "zzz"-folder method will generally work, especially if there are no loose files in that "Mods" subfolder. Although, if there are any files within that "zzz" folder that need to load before/after any of the others, you'd obviously also need to rename those that need to load last with "z"s in front of the file, to push them to the bottom of the list.

Sorry to be nitpicky, but since I have 1000+ mods, some of which interact in very complex ways, especially since I use Inteen, I have a lot of experience with this AND a very highly-structured Mods subfolder. And, in a couple of cases, some of my mods are, indeed, loose in the Downloads folder.

I'm mostly found on (and mostly upload to) Tumblr these days because, alas, there are only 24 hours in a day.
Muh Simblr! | An index of my downloads on Tumblr.
Mad Poster
#9 Old 18th Apr 2018 at 4:02 PM
HCDU is helpful with that, because it shows you what's loading last even if they're in different subfolders.
Test Subject
Original Poster
#10 Old 18th Apr 2018 at 5:40 PM
Yes, in my example above it looks like the HCDU is listing my folders in reverse alphabetical order. But sometimes it lists them in true alphabetical order. And sometimes it mixes them up.

Here's another example (which I don't believe is a problem, because they are all HL's modular stairs):

*** POSSIBLE CONFLICT DETECTED ***
File Type: BHAV
Procedure Name: CT - No Supports?
Group ID: 0x7FF4606E
Instance ID: 0x00001000
Packages Containing This Procedure:
\downloads\Build Mode\MTS_stairs\HL's modular open stairs\HL_ChicStairsMAIN.package
\downloads\Build Mode\MTS_stairs\HL's modular open stairs\HL_EuroRecolorableModStairs.package
\downloads\Build Mode\MTS_stairs\HL's modular open stairs\HL_IndestructableConcreteModularRECOLORABLE.package
\downloads\Build Mode\MTS_stairs\HL's modular open stairs\HL_StorybookModStairsRECOLORABLE.package
\downloads\Build Mode\MTS_stairs\HL's modular open stairs\HL_ArtNouveaModStairs\HL_ArtNouveauMAIN.package

...Here, from the folder "HL's modular open stairs," it first lists the four files loose within that folder -- in alpha order -- then lists the subfoldered file. So is the HCDU saying that HL_ChicStairsMAIN loads first or last? Because neither makes sense, unless the game is loading loose files before subfoldered files ...OR unless the HCDU is not accurately reflecting the game load order :/ And if the game is in fact loading subfoldered files before loose ones (and so the last on the list, HL_ArtNouveauMAIN, is in fact the first file loaded), then shouldn't the first four files on the list be in REVERSE alpha order?

My main question is this: Should I trust in the HCDU report or trust in alphanumeric order? And if I trust the HCDU report, should I trust that the first file listed is the last one loaded?
Undead Molten Llama
#11 Old 18th Apr 2018 at 6:21 PM
There is no "trusting" involved. It doesn't matter in what order the conflicts are listed in the HCDU because that has nothing to do with how they were loaded but probably something internal in the files. (I was wrong about that in my first post; I don't have occasion to run the HCDU much anymore, so I wasn't sure.) The game loads files as I've described: In alphanumeric order, subfolders, if any, first. So, if in your Downloads you have three subfolders named A, B, and C and then some unfoldered files, the game will load everything in Subfolder A (again, in alphanumeric order, subfolders first) first. When it is done loading everything possible contained in Subfolder A, it will move on to Subfolder B. When it's done with B, it will load everything in Subfolder C. Finally, it will load any files in the main Downloads folder that were not subfoldered.

In your example above (Which, no, is not a problem), the last-loaded file (and therefore the one taking precedence) would be the mod making the Storybook stairs recolorable because that's the last one, alphabetically and all those files are in the same subfolder. In your first example, it's ijUniBreakPatch.package because its "Simlogical hacks" 2nd-level subfolder is the last one, alphabetically. (I was initially wrong about that, too; I had read "Simbology" and "Simlogical" as the same word on my first pass, so I thought they were in the same 2nd-level subfolder. )

I'm mostly found on (and mostly upload to) Tumblr these days because, alas, there are only 24 hours in a day.
Muh Simblr! | An index of my downloads on Tumblr.
Mad Poster
#12 Old 18th Apr 2018 at 7:01 PM
If I have mods that are conflicting and I need them to load in a certain order, I make a sub-folder in Downloads JUST for those specific conflicting mods (walkby, breakupfixes, etc.) and make sure the conflicting mods are in alphabetical order in that one specific sub-folder. It's the only way I can be sure of the load order for those particular mods. I am definitely not going to rearrange my entire Downloads folder and all of its subfolders just to get two or three mods to load in the right order.
Mad Poster
#13 Old 18th Apr 2018 at 10:40 PM
If it is only the stairs, don't worry about them. They will still work.
Test Subject
Original Poster
#14 Old 19th Apr 2018 at 2:18 AM
Thanks everyone for your help! I guess I'll trust in ... that is, ACCEPT the alphanumeric quality of computers as a thing!

I decided in most cases to remove one of the conflicting hacks (including Pescado's apthack), reran the HCDU, and got the number of conflicts down from 94 to 17. Most of the remaining possible conflicts are resolved to my satisfaction; only two conflicts remain that I couldn't find any discussion on. One is the Simlogical hacks\ijUniBreakPatch vs. Simbology hacks\No Finals at Night question. All I've found is Inge's description of ijUniBreakPatch as compatible with TwoJeffs' (Simbology's) College Adjuster. So here's hoping it will play nice with his No Finals at Night too. The other potential conflict is Richi3frog's Proper Hobby Enthusiasm for Deco Items versus Pescado's yellowpee:

*** POSSIBLE CONFLICT DETECTED *** [OKAY? yellowpee seems to work fine. May disable pets' ability to "use" holiday reindeer?]
File Type: BHAV
Procedure Name: Interaction - Use
Group ID: 0x7F29E93A
Instance ID: 0x00001005
Packages Containing This Procedure:
\downloads\Game Mods\MATY hacks\yellowpee.package
\downloads\Game Mods\gameplay changes and fixes\MTS_gameplay changes\Richi3f-Deco-HobbyEnthusiasm.package

And you know what? I haven't noticed any problems and have decided I simply cannot deal with blue pee!

Thanks again!
Undead Molten Llama
#15 Old 19th Apr 2018 at 5:49 AM
My personal opinion when it comes to mod conflicts is this: If everything in your game is working to your satisfaction, then all is well. It's not like conflicts will hurt the game or (generally) cause it to crash. Mostly, when things fatally conflict, it causes jump bugs or hides pie menu functions or causes Sims to stop aging. When those things happen, then you need to root out the cause because they're disrupting your gameplay. But sometimes "overwritten" mods simply don't do anything anymore but the conflicts cause no gameplay disruptions. You just have a/some "dead," useless file(s) in your game. Since mods are generally tiny files, a few kilobytes in size, a few dead ones aren't going to hurt your game or slow it down. IMO, sometimes people just freak out about things too much.

In your specific case, if you're still seeing the desired effects of yellowpee and the second mod (which is the one being overridden, but not all conflicts result in files/functions being completely overridden), then you are, IMO, fine and dandy. If you aren't seeing the desired effects of both, then the load order isn't helping with the conflict between them and you might (or might not) want to remove the one(s) being overridden. That's what benign conflicts boil down to, IMO.

I'm mostly found on (and mostly upload to) Tumblr these days because, alas, there are only 24 hours in a day.
Muh Simblr! | An index of my downloads on Tumblr.
Mad Poster
#16 Old 19th Apr 2018 at 9:29 AM
I'm confused by what people are saying about the HCDU listing things in reverse order. For example here are two of my conflicts, set to make the last one listed load last.

*** POSSIBLE CONFLICT DETECTED ***
File Type: BHAV
Procedure Name: CT - Test - Go Steady Reject Steady
Group ID: 0x7F739728
Instance ID: 0x00001050
Packages Containing This Procedure:
\downloads\Hacks Finished\adultsgosteady.package
\downloads\Hacks Finished\zteenenabledadultwants.package

*** POSSIBLE CONFLICT DETECTED ***
File Type: BHAV
Procedure Name: Interaction - Snooze - TEST
Group ID: 0x7F0B61F3
Instance ID: 0x00002016
Packages Containing This Procedure:
\downloads\Hacks Finished\Cyjon\CJ-LessNapping.package
\downloads\Hacks Finished\Cyjon\GummiluttSnoozeEnabledOnlyWhenSittingCommunity.package

As you can see they're both in alphabetical order and show the file set to load last as last.
Undead Molten Llama
#17 Old 19th Apr 2018 at 10:27 AM
That was something I said, but I said "I believe, am not sure." Turns out, I was wrong. I don't think the order of the conflicts in the HCDU means anything at all. It likely lists as the first mod the first one it came across that met whatever criteria it was looking for, probably for two mods that share the same group/instance IDs, since that's what it lists in the reports, and it probably doesn't search alphabetically by folder/file names. So, load order has absolutely nothing to do with that.

TL;DR summary of all my posts in this thread: The game loads files -- all files, not just CC files -- alphanumerically, subfolders first. This is a known fact. The HCDU likely searches them in different ways and so lists them ordered differently in its reports. It's up to you (General "you," not you, specifically, Charity ) to use your alphabetizing skills that you learned in grade school to figure out which mod of a group of conflicting ones is loading last.

I'm mostly found on (and mostly upload to) Tumblr these days because, alas, there are only 24 hours in a day.
Muh Simblr! | An index of my downloads on Tumblr.
Mad Poster
#18 Old 19th Apr 2018 at 11:01 AM
Quote: Originally posted by iCad
My personal opinion when it comes to mod conflicts is this: If everything in your game is working to your satisfaction, then all is well. It's not like conflicts will hurt the game or (generally) cause it to crash. Mostly, when things fatally conflict, it causes jump bugs or hides pie menu functions or causes Sims to stop aging. When those things happen, then you need to root out the cause because they're disrupting your gameplay. But sometimes "overwritten" mods simply don't do anything anymore but the conflicts cause no gameplay disruptions. You just have a/some "dead," useless file(s) in your game. Since mods are generally tiny files, a few kilobytes in size, a few dead ones aren't going to hurt your game or slow it down. IMO, sometimes people just freak out about things too much.

Agreed. HCDU shows 112 conflicts in my game and aside from the occasional hiccup it seems to run just fine.
Mad Poster
#19 Old 19th Apr 2018 at 11:14 AM
Well my HCDU has always listed the loading last mod last. *shrugs*
Undead Molten Llama
#20 Old 19th Apr 2018 at 11:46 AM
Just for kicks, to take a break from this project I'm working on, I just ran the HCDU on my downloads. I know pretty much down to the mod which ones load last in my game because years ago I had to do a lot of fiddling -- like, testing with only the reported-conflicting mods in the game, and experimenting with load order amongst them -- to get it all working together for my own purposes, with all the features I most care about working while allowing others that I care less about to be overridden in favor of the things that the last-loading mod does, all without jump bugs and the like. It was a gigantic project that I undertook when I decided to use Inteen way back when, given that Inteen conflicts with lots of stuff (including itself! ) It took some...interesting...structuring to get all the things I wanted working without generating 1000 jump bugs. So, I have lots of non-fatally-conflicting mods, but it's OK because of the way I've structured my folder and what I personally want to happen (or not to happen) in my game.

As it turns out, the order in my HCDU reports are inconsistent. With most of the reported conflicts, the last-loading mod was last on the list. With others, it wasn't. Like I said, I don't think the HCDU report is reflective of load order. It might coincide sometimes, sure, but sometimes it doesn't. I have no idea what the HCDU looks at or how it generates its reports because I am in no way someone who understands programming, but I DO know how my mods folder is structured and exactly how it loads. It looked like in my report that mods that were buried under fewer subfolders tended to be listed first, but that wasn't always the case, either, so...I dunno.

I'm mostly found on (and mostly upload to) Tumblr these days because, alas, there are only 24 hours in a day.
Muh Simblr! | An index of my downloads on Tumblr.
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