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Banned
Original Poster
#1 Old 8th Nov 2014 at 10:13 AM
Default Should Germany be split again?
A survey conducted by the Allensbach Institute (http://www.euractiv.com/culture/ger...fic-news-516702) says that the former East-German population say that the west isn't the best. Some even call for the wall to be rebuilt, much to my disapproval. Personally, I think that rebuilding the wall will result in an economic crisis, and the USS...sorry, Russians might roll in and annex...AGH, take control of East Germany via 'vote'.

25 years from the fall of the wall, I think Germany is alright as it is. What is your opinion?
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Top Secret Researcher
#2 Old 8th Nov 2014 at 12:26 PM
Hypothetically, if one half of a country wanted to be independent of the other half then wouldn't the logical solution be to declare them two separate countries and then each would go on their merry way?

I wouldn't put a lot of effort into getting it transported.
Theorist
#3 Old 8th Nov 2014 at 2:23 PM
Honestly, I think that it will be a cold, bitter day in hell before someone just "allows" this to happen. Crimea was pure Russian opportunism. Scotland was a bunch of idiots who didn't understand long term economic consequences for their actions. Whatever they're calling the Basque thing these days has to deal with two countries if I recall correctly, but Germany? Germany's got an awful lot riding on the one hand exploiting the other one for the next few decades. Germany does not historically have a record of shrugging this sort of thing off. Germany is perfectly capable of turning a separation into a NATO issue. Germany is right that this would be a NATO issue.

Ukraine didn't get on the boat soon enough. They really played what they thought was a middle, conservative hand by trying to sit in the middle of Russia and NATO and Putin's punishing the hell out of them for it. Germany doesn't have that issue. Even a whiff of Russian influence on this issue would literally turn this into an act of war against the NATO powers. Indeed, I suspect that it's even coming up as an issue right now is probably due to Putin playing propaganda and polling games. It's really a classic sort of Cold War thing to do, and Putin's really a remnant of the Cold War. He and Dick Cheney could probably have a big bare-knuckle fist fight and then end up in bed together, they're very similar.

Germany is arrogant. And Germany's leading the EU down a path of ruin with austerity and bad leadership, but poor leadership in a democracy is always an election away from reversing. All of this talk of separation in countries... It's the height of stupidity. You don't change your circumstances by taking your toys and going home in these situations, you change your circumstances with better political organization.

On the other hand, if anyone wants to take Texas off of the US's hands, I'm game. Let's make that happen.
Mad Poster
#4 Old 8th Nov 2014 at 3:32 PM Last edited by RoseCity : 8th Nov 2014 at 3:51 PM.
Quote: Originally posted by Mistermook
Honestly, I think that it will be a cold, bitter day in hell before someone just "allows" this to happen. Crimea was pure Russian opportunism. Scotland was a bunch of idiots who didn't understand long term economic consequences for their actions. Whatever they're calling the Basque thing these days has to deal with two countries if I recall correctly, but Germany? Germany's got an awful lot riding on the one hand exploiting the other one for the next few decades. Germany does not historically have a record of shrugging this sort of thing off. Germany is perfectly capable of turning a separation into a NATO issue. Germany is right that this would be a NATO issue.

Ukraine didn't get on the boat soon enough. They really played what they thought was a middle, conservative hand by trying to sit in the middle of Russia and NATO and Putin's punishing the hell out of them for it. Germany doesn't have that issue. Even a whiff of Russian influence on this issue would literally turn this into an act of war against the NATO powers. Indeed, I suspect that it's even coming up as an issue right now is probably due to Putin playing propaganda and polling games. It's really a classic sort of Cold War thing to do, and Putin's really a remnant of the Cold War. He and Dick Cheney could probably have a big bare-knuckle fist fight and then end up in bed together, they're very similar.

Germany is arrogant. And Germany's leading the EU down a path of ruin with austerity and bad leadership, but poor leadership in a democracy is always an election away from reversing. All of this talk of separation in countries... It's the height of stupidity. You don't change your circumstances by taking your toys and going home in these situations, you change your circumstances with better political organization.

On the other hand, if anyone wants to take Texas off of the US's hands, I'm game. Let's make that happen.


They can take the entire CSA while they're at it.
Theorist
#5 Old 8th Nov 2014 at 4:19 PM
Quote: Originally posted by RoseCity
They can take the entire CSA while they're at it.


I wrote a largish post responding to this, but realized it was horrifically off topic. Suffice it to say Texas is uniquely screwed up compared to the rest of the South, with less indication that a sea change is in the works thanks to shifting demographics.
Theorist
#6 Old 8th Nov 2014 at 9:12 PM
Quote: Originally posted by RoseCity
(Offtopic again - sorry) Last year listening to NPR, heard in a story about the midterm elections, it was just taken for granted, not even questioned, that Barack Obama couldn't campaign in the South - couldn't set foot there without damaging the candidates. So is that part of the sea change that the President can't campaign in the South for Democrats without damaging the Democratic candidate in the eyes of Democrats? Wonder why that would upset them.........

You really should use the proper thread for this, or create your own. It's not fair to someone else to co-opt their thread about a completely different place's politics with a discussion of somewhere else's.
Banned
Original Poster
#7 Old 8th Nov 2014 at 9:31 PM
Quote: Originally posted by RoseCity
(Offtopic again - sorry) Last year listening to NPR, heard in a story about the midterm elections, it was just taken for granted, not even questioned, that Barack Obama couldn't campaign in the South - couldn't set foot there without damaging the candidates. So is that part of the sea change that the President can't campaign in the South for Democrats without damaging the Democratic candidate in the eyes of Democrats? Wonder why that would upset them.........

Don't INB4TheLock, 007!
Also, it is the eve of the 25th anniversary of the fall of the wall!
Banned
Original Poster
#8 Old 8th Nov 2014 at 9:39 PM Last edited by Aaron4Ever : 8th Nov 2014 at 10:09 PM.
Quote: Originally posted by simbalena
Hypothetically, if one half of a country wanted to be independent of the other half then wouldn't the logical solution be to declare them two separate countries and then each would go on their merry way?

Well there is the EU crisis that would occur, a possible annexation by the revived Soviet Union, and bitter tensions against the west, which in Asia's eyes, is every direction.
EDIT: I just heard. We might be on the edge of a second Cold War. Thanks a lot, Crimea.
Theorist
#9 Old 8th Nov 2014 at 10:51 PM Last edited by Mistermook : 10th Nov 2014 at 1:13 AM.
Quote: Originally posted by Aaron4Ever
Well there is the EU crisis that would occur, a possible annexation by the revived Soviet Union, and bitter tensions against the west, which in Asia's eyes, is every direction.
EDIT: I just heard. We might be on the edge of a second Cold War. Thanks a lot, Crimea.


It's not Crimea's fault. Putin's been spoiling to exploit this weird undercurrent for a long while. Even Gorbachev recently chimed in blaming the West for this nonsense somehow, as if only the rest of the world would drop Putin's pants and place soft, loving kisses there he wouldn't be forced to send soldiers over his borders on "vacation." There's apparently a very strong nationalistic undercurrent driving all of this, Russians with some notion that if only the West wasn't full of assholes dictating terms every Russian would be able to victoriously murder a homosexual and go home to a garishly outfitted mansion. Revisionist history, buying into the whole US narrative where Reagan somehow managed to single handedly destroy the Soviet economy instead of coming in at the last moment and shooting the already dead horse in time to wave a flag over it.

We get it. Russia's economy (and I presume East Germany) hasn't been all gummy bears and back rubs since the fall of the Soviet Union. Yes some of that's because Westerners are mean old capitalists exploiting folks who hadn't a lot of experience in the practice of it. But I think it's ludicrous to suggest that Russia hasn't "figured it out" by now, decades on. I haven't been to East Germany so I can't say with any sort broad strokes, but I can't imagine that East Germany's somehow missed out on the wave of German economic exploitation re:the EU. If they're currently suffering more than the rest of Germany it's just more of the shitty Merkel government and presumably an election away from burying her whole idiot "austerity" policies entirely. Certainly simply divorcing itself from West Germany won't get Merkel out of office and remove her influence on their economy anymore than anyone else in the EU is resistant to the woman's terrible policy bent.

Russia's economy, if it's got hiccups, probably have more to do with Putin, the menacing Russian oligarchs, and the Russian mob pretty much scaring away anyone with any sense for doing serious business there. Everyone wants to do business with Russia: They're sitting on tens of thousands of square miles worth of entirely unexploited resources. This is the same situation with almost all of Eastern Europe, especially with regard to oil. It's not a fault of capitalism that bad government and corruption is getting in the way. East Germany is playing the victim card here instead of doing what it probably needs to do, which is to gather a proper mandate and elect a government that might adequately represent their interests. Splitting just makes them an even weaker nation polishing tears between the German and Polish economies. How that results in profit I've got no idea.

Again though, anything specific to East Germany is kind of "in relation to other politics, which I believe I know more about." What is East Germany like these days? I always kind of presumed that essentially an awful lot of people immediately moved west after the Berlin Wall came down to get higher paying jobs, every industrial company with any possibility of movement immediately opened shop there and closed their businesses in the West because of property costs, a lot of basic infrastructure will always lag a little bit behind, and there'd be a ton of competition in some things with Poland once Poland entered the EU. And all of that more or less enthusiastically dimmed as time went on, then collapsed like everything else in Europe in 2008 with the Great Recession + austerity idiocy. But I don't know, and honestly I'm not even sure exactly how I'd go about collecting the sorts of resources I usually use to form impressions on things about the split.
Banned
Original Poster
#10 Old 10th Nov 2014 at 6:08 PM
Your opnion is always accepted, leave an agree or disagree on the first post.
"Strength through unity, unity through faith" Norsefire Government motto, V For Vendetta
 
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