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Instructor
#76 Old 21st Mar 2005 at 11:37 AM
MaxoidTom, Everything is far too technical for normal players. Why is that way? If you bother all the work to change the phisical appearance of a Sim I suppose automatically means that you DO NOT want those characteristics to repeat. I changed a very ugly adopted child that became even uglier when growing into an extremely beautiful boy. He is recently grown to adult. If his babies are going to look exactly the way he was before, I'm entering in a mood to make my first Simicide. In most, why do all toddlers get the ugliest hair ever placed (the short curly hair) no matter how the hair of the parents look like? I started to clone all kind of hair except the hated default. I make no mod but just guarantee that my Sims have a "custom" hair.
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Test Subject
#77 Old 21st Mar 2005 at 11:52 PM
Quote: Originally posted by me
Tom, when the sex of the offspring is selected? Straight after woohooing or before the birth pop up message?

Quote: Originally posted by MaxoidTom
Before the birth pop up message. The gender is controlled in the code and the the scripting system, so there is no current way for modders to determine the sex of the offspring (well, without hacking the executable).


Tom, how this information fits Brandi Broke?
She comes pregnant when we install TS2, but always gives birth to a baby boy... (and I can be wrong, but always a boy with black hair, maybe even the same genetic "looking"). Was she programmed to give birth to a boy?
One of those Maxoids
#78 Old 22nd Mar 2005 at 10:27 PM
Quote: Originally posted by xptl297
MaxoidTom, Everything is far too technical for normal players. Why is that way? If you bother all the work to change the phisical appearance of a Sim I suppose automatically means that you DO NOT want those characteristics to repeat. I changed a very ugly adopted child that became even uglier when growing into an extremely beautiful boy. He is recently grown to adult. If his babies are going to look exactly the way he was before, I'm entering in a mood to make my first Simicide. In most, why do all toddlers get the ugliest hair ever placed (the short curly hair) no matter how the hair of the parents look like? I started to clone all kind of hair except the hated default. I make no mod but just guarantee that my Sims have a "custom" hair.


The plastic surgery kit is an *appearance* modifier, not a genetic modifier. While you may want it to alter genetics, it does not, and was explicitly designed not to do so. You may disagree with this decision and that is your perogative. That does not change what the object does.

My explanations on how to get around this may be "too technical" for the normal user, but the people who do understand and make the modding tools can benefit from this information and make tools that allow the normal players to alter facial genetics. This discussion wasn't meant for users who do not wish to know the "mysteries of Sim DNA" as the title of the thread states.

To answer your question on hairstyles, sims get a hairstyle picked from a set of defaults (which you apparently do not like). It is relatively easy to mark other hairstyles as defaults using one of the modding tools.

Please remember that not everyone plays the game they way you do. If the plastic surgery kit altered genetics, I'm sure there would be plenty of complaints on the boards that it wasn't realistic.
One of those Maxoids
#79 Old 22nd Mar 2005 at 10:28 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Danton
Tom, how this information fits Brandi Broke?
She comes pregnant when we install TS2, but always gives birth to a baby boy... (and I can be wrong, but always a boy with black hair, maybe even the same genetic "looking"). Was she programmed to give birth to a boy?


Brandi may be scripted to do something special. The "fact" that she always gives birth to a boy may simply be because of the starting conditions of the game. If you played another family and had it create a baby, then go back to Brandi's house, the child may be different.
Instructor
#80 Old 23rd Mar 2005 at 12:52 PM
MaxoidTom. Of course I know not everybody plays the way I do. That's why I mean the game self should have options. Instead we gather tons of mods, possibility of conflicts without any "money-back" garantie (this is just a black joke). I have many computers so I can install different versions for comparison. I used my "dead install" (never plays) to recover some "accidents" and just realize that without any mod (at least for me) the game works perfectly but is not playable (it sucks!). No personal offense. I always say MY meanings. I'm not a world representative.
Instructor
#81 Old 23rd Mar 2005 at 4:34 PM
Quote: Originally posted by MaxoidTom
To answer your question on hairstyles, sims get a hairstyle picked from a set of defaults (which you apparently do not like). It is relatively easy to mark other hairstyles as defaults using one of the modding tools.


Actually they don't get random hairs from a set of defaults, sims born in the game always get the same hairstyle. I think that is the main problem people have with it is that they always get that same hairstyle no matter what.

Now if you adopt a toddler or child then their hairstyle is randomized, giving variety. But when an infant, either born or adopted, grows up to a toddler there appears to be no random function for choosing a hairstyle or if there is then it has never worked.

The funny thing is, although there are several toddler hairstyles, you will never end up seeing them on your toddler sims unless you adopt or create toddlers in the CAS because it is not possible (without hacks) to change a toddler's hair.

Speaking of which, I wonder why the first patch fixed it so you could change the toddlers outfit but not their hairstyle. The interface certainly allows it because people have hacked mirrors to remove the restriction on toddlers and they work just fine.

I guess for me it's not a major issue but a minor annoyance since I do have a hacked mirror and can change the toddlers hairstyles. But IMHO I don't think we should have to resort to hacks to customize our toddlers appearance when all the other age groups can do it without hacks and I also think there really should be some randomness and variety among the toddlers hairstyles that get generated, or else where are there even multiple toddler hair meshes then?
retired moderator
#82 Old 23rd Mar 2005 at 4:59 PM
Quote: Originally posted by MaxoidTom
The facial data used for the descendents has an instance id of 1. The one used for the actual appearance has an instance id of 2 (if the sim has used the plastic surgery kit). If you copy the second record over the first, you should be able to do effectively pass on the facial structure you modified at the plastic surgery kit.

Very cool! Even though most are butt ugly, I like playing Maxis families. I can always put up with the first generation of uglies, but after that, I begin to think of murder.

And another thing... is everybody's game the same where 95% of all townies and Maxis made Sims are all of ethnic backgrounds, or is it just my game?

Not that I have anything against ethnic backgrounds, but every so often it is nice not to be a minority in my own game. :D
One of those Maxoids
#83 Old 23rd Mar 2005 at 8:23 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Motoki
Actually they don't get random hairs from a set of defaults, sims born in the game always get the same hairstyle. I think that is the main problem people have with it is that they always get that same hairstyle no matter what.

Now if you adopt a toddler or child then their hairstyle is randomized, giving variety. But when an infant, either born or adopted, grows up to a toddler there appears to be no random function for choosing a hairstyle or if there is then it has never worked.

The funny thing is, although there are several toddler hairstyles, you will never end up seeing them on your toddler sims unless you adopt or create toddlers in the CAS because it is not possible (without hacks) to change a toddler's hair.

Speaking of which, I wonder why the first patch fixed it so you could change the toddlers outfit but not their hairstyle. The interface certainly allows it because people have hacked mirrors to remove the restriction on toddlers and they work just fine.

I guess for me it's not a major issue but a minor annoyance since I do have a hacked mirror and can change the toddlers hairstyles. But IMHO I don't think we should have to resort to hacks to customize our toddlers appearance when all the other age groups can do it without hacks and I also think there really should be some randomness and variety among the toddlers hairstyles that get generated, or else where are there even multiple toddler hair meshes then?


Sims born in the game *should* get a random hairstyle from a set of defaults. Whether that set includes only one hairstyle, I am not sure. Random in this sense is determined by a seed when the game starts and generally makes it so that from run to run of the game (without a save), it gives out the same result.

For babies, there may actually be only one hairstyle marked as default, which belongs to the "curly" hairstyle family. When a sim ages, their hairstyle tries to stay consistent with what it was in the previous age (so teens with mohawks grow up to be adults with mohawks). If there was only one valid baby hairstyle and it designated the curly hairstyle as the next one in the same hairstyle family/group, then that is what you are probably seeing. One way to get around this is to find & modify or add more default baby hairstyles that have the same family id as the toddler hairstyle you want.

The first patch fixed the fact that you could not plan clothes on a toddler because that was a bug that was quickly brought up by the community. I do not believe the issue with not being able to change the appearance (hairstyle, makeup, etc.) of the toddler at the mirror/vanity was brought up as quickly. It may have been designed that way and did not take into account the fact that users wanted to put makeup on their toddlers, change their hairstyle, etc., or we just didn't have time to put in a good animation for having an adult bring the toddler to the mirror (and now vanity) and perform that interaction. Perhaps you could bring this up--I believe there is a new bug submission form on the official BBS.
One of those Maxoids
#84 Old 23rd Mar 2005 at 8:31 PM
Quote: Originally posted by xptl297
MaxoidTom. Of course I know not everybody plays the way I do. That's why I mean the game self should have options. Instead we gather tons of mods, possibility of conflicts without any "money-back" garantie (this is just a black joke). I have many computers so I can install different versions for comparison. I used my "dead install" (never plays) to recover some "accidents" and just realize that without any mod (at least for me) the game works perfectly but is not playable (it sucks!). No personal offense. I always say MY meanings. I'm not a world representative.


I realize you may want lots of these options, but we simply do not have the time or resources to indulge all the options and configurability users may want. Can you imagine the list of options opened being included in the game that the modders have hacked in? Well, here's a few:

1.) control visitors on/off
2.) plastic surgery kit modifies genetic facial data on/off
3.) new young adult walk on/off
4.) teen woohoo on/off (which will probably never happen because the game is T-rated)
5.) teen pregnancy on/off (see #4)
6.) kids cheer for A+ on/off
7.) incest on/off (see #4 and #5)
etc.

We do try to make the game configurable as much as we can, but can you imagine a novice user looking at all those options and not getting confused?

But that's the beauty of the Sims 2. It is a sandbox that people do whatever they want in. However, we cannot account for all the possible ways people play the game. That's one of the reasons we support the modding community here--they enable users to do things that we did not have time to do or were not allowed to do or even did not even think of doing.
Test Subject
#85 Old 23rd Mar 2005 at 8:41 PM
I never got the plastic surgery kit yet, but a "modifies genetic facial data on/off" should be available at the testingcheatsenabled cheat. Pity if not.

But if not, I bet one of the next SimPE releases will do the trick.
One of those Maxoids
#86 Old 23rd Mar 2005 at 8:49 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Danton
I never got the plastic surgery kit yet, but a "modifies genetic facial data on/off" should be available at the testingcheatsenabled cheat. Pity if not.

But if not, I bet one of the next SimPE releases will do the trick.


This is not currently an option and there are no plans to do so (sorry, I'm already swamped with work). You will have to use 3rd party tools if you wish to do this. I believe I have given out enough information where this will be trivial to do.
Inventor
#87 Old 23rd Mar 2005 at 11:29 PM
Quote: Originally posted by MaxoidTom
The facial data used for the descendents has an instance id of 1. The one used for the actual appearance has an instance id of 2 (if the sim has used the plastic surgery kit). If you copy the second record over the first, you should be able to do effectively pass on the facial structure you modified at the plastic surgery kit.


Everyone here has been extremely helpful in my better understanding the Sims DNA structure and how to change things in SimPE, so I wanted to say thanks.

But this little bit of information I quoted from MaxoidTom was just the best for me. He's a wealth of time saving information (naturally).
Test Subject
#88 Old 24th Mar 2005 at 1:31 AM
Okay -- not to intrude, but I was hoping somebody can sum up the rest of this mystery with some conclusive information and form an abridgment for the rest of these inclusively accounted lines...

Looks like we've got the facial structure and lines 2,4,7 and 10 *well* accounted for, thanks to MaxoidTom, RGiles, IgnorantBliss (and others).

I am really hoping that it can be made clear for the rest of these lines what is the genes, how they’re used, and what is expressed.

For what is not expressed (DNA only) in these lines, where can it be clearly and conclusively pointed out the rest of the expressed information that would directly affect the Sims appearance in game? Would it be somewhere else in the Neighborhood package, or somewhere in the User file? If so, where in?

Of course, using a hex editor to find and replace wouldn’t exactly form some exacts and determining factors which both would help form a tangible referential on this topic.

Okay, anybody care to confirm or expound on what RG came up with for the rest?

Line 1 -> Dominate gene for hair?
Line 3 -> Recessive hair color?
Line 5 -> Recessive eye color?
Line 6 -> ????? Depreciated? Why is this blank?
Line 8 -> Dominate eye genes?
Line 9 -> List of facial features? For what?


sh-
Part-time Hermit
#89 Old 24th Mar 2005 at 4:40 AM
Quote: Originally posted by sheera

Line 1 -> Dominate gene for hair?
Line 3 -> Recessive hair color?
Line 5 -> Recessive eye color?
Line 6 -> ????? Depreciated? Why is this blank?
Line 8 -> Dominate eye genes?
Line 9 -> List of facial features? For what?


sh-


I think the list of facial features is to point out which parts of the sim's face are labelled dominant and more likely to be passed on to offspring. They have five areas of the face that are inherited separately.
Field Researcher
#90 Old 24th Mar 2005 at 7:30 AM
Quote: Originally posted by MaxoidTom
The facial data used for the descendents has an instance id of 1. The one used for the actual appearance has an instance id of 2 (if the sim has used the plastic surgery kit). If you copy the second record over the first, you should be able to do effectively pass on the facial structure you modified at the plastic surgery kit.


MaxoidTom, Just dropped in and wanted to say thank you for the information and replying. It is great to know that there are people at Maxis that take time out to help the modding community. Just wanted you to know that it is appreciated by many here. By the way, Maxis blew me away with Sims2. I really was not expecting it to be much more than a redone Sims1. Great Job! I totally love it (except for the few things that need tweaked LOL)!

Have a bright platinum diamond day!
Deb
Test Subject
#91 Old 1st Apr 2005 at 2:43 AM
Can any one tell me how to you copy the second facial data record over the first facial data in SimPE? I know where to find it. I just dont know how to copy the data over. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
retired moderator
#92 Old 21st Apr 2005 at 12:45 PM
Line 11 changes the skin tone in the game. Last night while testing I changed Oberon Summerdream's skin tone from dark to light. Went back into the game and he was a 1 instead of a 4.
Lab Assistant
#93 Old 21st Apr 2005 at 1:42 PM Last edited by mosbyte : 21st Apr 2005 at 3:32 PM. Reason: correction
After reading Maxoidtom's post regarding the two slots now used to store facial structure information, I've been looking around and it appears SimPE isn't yet capable of managing this new data. Under the filetype SimDNA (neighborhood package) I see nothing similar to what Maxoidtom described, likewise with the Facial Structure filetype of the character package. For months I've been successfully extracting facial information off sims already in the game, manipulating with Body Shop and re-applying mostly because of the added capabilities of Body Shop. Like Rgiles mentioned, these chages were permament and passed on to offspring, but only prior to the EP, since Maxis apparently moved this slot (instance) to become the cosmetic change. Silentwarrior, where exactly in SimPE are you looking at for this new data? If you can find it I can tell you how to change it.
Administrator of Loverat's Tea and Underpants
Original Poster
#94 Old 28th Apr 2005 at 9:44 AM
mosbyte,
In case you haven't found it already, there's a tutorial (in the tutorials forum) explaining how to overwrite that facial structure data Tom's talking about. It's not in the DNA file.

Tom,
Motoki's right. If the hairstyle for a sim born in-game is randomized from a set of defaults, the "set" consists of one style for males and one style for females. If there is a randomizing process, it has no options. Since other sims generated in-game (by the game, not the user) do get a variety of hair styles, I'm guessing that they are actually getting a random style from a set of defaults, and that the randomizing process was mistakenly left out at the time that an infant ages into a toddler. There's no other way I can think of to explain it. There would be only one set of default hairstyles. It's an oopsie.

RG
Lab Assistant
#95 Old 29th Apr 2005 at 12:45 AM
Thanks Admin, I knew of that tutorial post but never read it cause the title misled me! The whole thing is clear now, what it really boils down to is that facial structures still aren't related to sim DNA at all, and anyone (like myself) modding faces by extracting the data and manipulating it with Body Shop (the hard, but true way) is actually making hereditary changes 'cause there will still be ONE instance for facial structure, which explains why I couldn't find it before, and also explains your previous statement. There's no automatic creation of a 2nd instance of facial structure just by installing the EP, it will be created only by using the Cosmetic Surgeon Career Award which I've never used, and never will.
Administrator of Loverat's Tea and Underpants
Original Poster
#96 Old 29th Apr 2005 at 2:12 AM
Yep, mosbyte. It's entirely related to cosmetic surgery object, which has a pretty limited ability to modify facial structure. It's sort of nifty that it's there, but like you I prefer the old-fashioned way. There are more options.
Field Researcher
#97 Old 1st May 2005 at 3:41 AM
The problem I have with male toddlers all getting an afro hairdo is that I have no idea if they are meant to have afro hair - in other words, if they happen to have a parent with afro hair, how do I know whether they have afro hair because all male toddlers get afro hair, or because they have inherited it from their afro-haired parent? By the same token, a girl with an afro-haired parent will never inherit afro hair because all girls get the same hairdo as toddlers, too. It seems the game doesn't view hair texture/type genetically in the way it does hair colour, which is a little strange.

WHY DO SIMS NEVER EXPERIENCE A MID-LIFE CRISIS?
Instructor
#98 Old 1st May 2005 at 3:59 AM
RG: I think based on what Tom said that it works like this.

(these numbers are not accurate, just examples)

Infants have only one hair to choose from
Toddlers have 4
Children 8
Teens 12
Adults, Elders and YA's 20.

Each hairstyle will lead to a specific one in the next age range, but obviously since each age range has progressively more hairstyles, there are some that have no corresponding hair from the previous age range.

If there's only one infant hair, then any sim generated as an infant will only get that hair, but a sim generated as another age has more choices.

So if we could find a way to make more hairs enabled for infants (even if they are bald and look the same in the game) we could get randomized hairs. Assuming of course the random function for infants does work as Tom said.

An interesting thing to note, when I had the Starter Pack for the pre-release bodyshop in my downloads directory, the boys born in the game actually ended up with a different hair as a toddler, but then all boys got that different hair until I took that file out of my downloads directory.
Administrator of Loverat's Tea and Underpants
Original Poster
#99 Old 1st May 2005 at 4:11 AM Last edited by RGiles : 1st May 2005 at 4:20 AM.
Motoki, I'm pretty sure infants don't *have* a hair, even a bald hair overlay. Infants aren't sims. They are "accessories". I don't think they have a hair slot in their 3DIR file. I'll make one to check, though.

EDIT: Nope, I'm wrong. They do indeed have a hair slot. So that's something to look into.
Instructor
#100 Old 1st May 2005 at 4:23 AM Last edited by Motoki : 1st May 2005 at 4:27 AM.
Hmm, okay well let me know. If not there goes that theory. And I'm not really sure then how to randomize the hair. I know toddlers who are adopted get randomized hair, but apparently the function that's generating a toddler from growing up an infant isn't randomizing. But the adopted kids are completely random where as the ones that are infants I believe do already have a set of parameters stored in their character file.

*edit: Hmm, okay so that may be the issue. But then how do we add an infant hair to an existing hair? Apparently, only the short male fro and the female 'Meg' hair have it. And one style that's in the Starter pack with the pr-release bodyshop. Hmm.

I actually have gotten infants in the body shop btw. They look really funny though lol. If you export one via Sim Surgery in SimPE it will show up in the body shop. I haven't tried messing with its hair to make a new one though. I'm not even sure it would let you. I suspect it's some advanced technique that would have to be done via adding settings to a hair package in SimPE.
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