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#601 Old 13th Nov 2007 at 7:18 PM
Quote: Originally posted by VeryAlliegh
People can wait up to five years without ever getting a child in the adoption system. There aren't too many. I'm not saying everybody should have kids to put in the system, but if it happens the world won't end because you put them up for adoption. And, maybe, if people have to have the baby, more of them wouldn't be having unprotected sex in the first place. It's not like birth control doesn't exsist. There are so many forms, it doesn't matter how much sex you have you can keep from getting pregnant. So many doctors have said that if you use two forms, you won't have to worry about it.
And again you have disregarded my point in the last post.

There are a lot of people who have still gotten pregnant with birth control. No birthcontrol is 100% including tubal ligation. So if you do not want kids you can never have sex again til menapouse??? :confused:
There are a ton of kids who could be put up for adoption but the reason for the wait is usally leagal issues with the birth parents not because there is a shortage of children.
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Inventor
#602 Old 13th Nov 2007 at 7:27 PM
Quote: Originally posted by VeryAlliegh
Because you ignore adoption your baby has to die because if what? Because you might grow to love them? You can't sacrifice another life for the sake of yours, do you not understand how selfish that is? I'm not addressing the special cercumstances when something goes wrong, or when there is elevated risk. I'm addressing the actual use that ya'll are protecting. To kill for convenience.


I'm not saying ignore adoption, if someone has an unwanted pregnancy and opts for adoption thats fine. I'm saying the option to abort a thumbnail sized clump of unformed cells (that is NOT a baby) should also be an option instead of sacrificing my life and lifestyle for an unwanted/ unplanned pregnancy. You call it selfish, I call it human rights. You seem to be ignoring almost everything that people are saying, so I will continue to repeat parts of it in the hopes that while you may not agree, you can maybe aleast try to understand a difference of opinion.

1. It's not a baby, it's a fetus. A clump of cells with the option to become a baby eventually.

2. Adoption IS an option, but so is abortion. It's not murder, it's not killing for convenience, it's human rights. In order to put a child up for adoption you have to carry that fetus for nine months which will effect your body and your life.
Lab Assistant
#603 Old 13th Nov 2007 at 7:28 PM
Okay, if there were planty of babies in the system then a couple would wait a few months, then find out about a potential child. Wait maybe another eight months, baby born. Another wait would be because the birth parent or parents wants to keep the baby. Which means they don't want to give it up for adoption. However if you don't want a baby enough to kill them then adoption shouldn't be a problem. Having the baby just makes it real, that's why ya'll don't like it. Ya'll can't ignore the child anymore, and you see them for what they are.

"No, college is for women who don't want to marry the first idiot they meet and squeeze out his bastard, moron children." Laura Prepon from That's 70's Show
Inventor
#604 Old 13th Nov 2007 at 7:33 PM
Quote: Originally posted by VeryAlliegh
Okay, if there were planty of babies in the system then a couple would wait a few months, then find out about a potential child. Wait maybe another eight months, baby born. Another wait would be because the birth parent or parents wants to keep the baby. Which means they don't want to give it up for adoption. However if you don't want a baby enough to kill them then adoption shouldn't be a problem. Having the baby just makes it real, that's why ya'll don't like it. Ya'll can't ignore the child anymore, and you see them for what they are.


Please, don't put words in my mouth. What might make me personally choose an abortion over adoption has nothing to do with it making the fetus "real", it's already real. It has more to do with never knowing what happens to it or answering my front door one day to explain to a child that's been bounced around through bad homes and possiblily mistreated,why I didn't want them. There are enough hungery, mistreated, unwanted kids in the world and I'm sorry if I might refuse to add another one. Yes, that child gains life, but at what cause?
Alchemist
#605 Old 13th Nov 2007 at 7:33 PM
Quote: Originally posted by VeryAlliegh
Having the baby just makes it real, that's why ya'll don't like it. Ya'll can't ignore the child anymore, and you see them for what they are.


Which is precisely the point of abortions: avoiding that an unwanted child is born, and doing it while the child had yet to be formed.

If wishes were fishes we'd all cast nets
#606 Old 13th Nov 2007 at 7:50 PM
Quote: Originally posted by VeryAlliegh
Okay, if there were planty of babies in the system then a couple would wait a few months, then find out about a potential child. Wait maybe another eight months, baby born. Another wait would be because the birth parent or parents wants to keep the baby. Which means they don't want to give it up for adoption. However if you don't want a baby enough to kill them then adoption shouldn't be a problem. Having the baby just makes it real, that's why ya'll don't like it. Ya'll can't ignore the child anymore, and you see them for what they are.

There are plenty of kids in the adoption system. That's the problem everyone wants babies not the kids that are already here. To me if someone says they are pro-life the should at least adopt one kid or have a foster child. Then you can say whatever about abortion.
Inventor
#607 Old 13th Nov 2007 at 7:59 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Tabk
There are plenty of kids in the adoption system. That's the problem everyone wants babies not the kids that are already here. To me if someone says they are pro-life the should at least adopt one kid or have a foster child. Then you can say whatever about abortion.


They talk about adoption but when asked how many babies they have adopted then you have to sit and listen to their many selfish stories on how that wont work for their family.
#608 Old 13th Nov 2007 at 8:19 PM
In case anyone was wondering, here are some statistics on abortion from the CDC.

The highest percentages of reported abortions were for women aged <25 years (52%), women who were white (57%), and unmarried women (81%). Fifty-eight percent of all abortions for which gestational age was reported were performed at <8 weeks of gestation, and 88% were performed before 13 weeks. Few abortions were performed after 15 weeks of gestation; 4.3% were obtained at 16--20 weeks and 1.4% were obtained at >21 weeks. A total of 31 reporting areas submitted data stating that they performed medical (nonsurgical) procedures, making up 1.0% of all reported procedures from the 42 areas with adequate reporting on type of procedure.

So it's fair to say the the average abortion takes place around 10 weeks? In ten weeks, the fetus' organ systems are growing quickly. Internal organs are starting to form and the vital organs including the liver, kidney, intestines and brain will start functioning. Not just a chunk of DNA.

A graphic pic of a 10 week old aborted baby's hands that were torn off. (The image is real)

Just in case anyone wanted to know.
Test Subject
#609 Old 13th Nov 2007 at 8:19 PM
Quote: Originally posted by VeryAlliegh
People can wait up to five years without ever getting a child in the adoption system. There aren't too many. I'm not saying everybody should have kids to put in the system, but if it happens the world won't end because you put them up for adoption. And, maybe, if people have to have the baby, more of them wouldn't be having unprotected sex in the first place. It's not like birth control doesn't exsist. There are so many forms, it doesn't matter how much sex you have you can keep from getting pregnant. So many doctors have said that if you use two forms, you won't have to worry about it.
And again you have disregarded my point in the last post.


Birth control is not 100% effective. It is not just because people want unprotected sex that unwanted pregnancies occur. Even if you are on the pill and use condoms...there is *still* that chance.


Quote: Originally posted by VeryAlliegh
Because you ignore adoption your baby has to die because if what? Because you might grow to love them? You can't sacrifice another life for the sake of yours, do you not understand how selfish that is? I'm not addressing the special cercumstances when something goes wrong, or when there is elevated risk. I'm addressing the actual use that ya'll are protecting. To kill for convenience.


Trust me, a baby I was forced to keep would not be loved....sad but true, as I don't want to be a mother. Ever. You can't risk forcing these women to keep their babies because they "might" grow to love them. Adoption has it's flaw not because of the risk that the mother may grow attatched to the foetus.

I don't think it's selfish to stop the development of a foetus. I don't care if you call it "killing" it. I also am not ignoring adoption, I just addressed the flaw in that idea. There would be thousands more in the adoption system if there were no abortion. It's not just some small number that wouldn't make a difference.

~Love is blind, i know this because you cant see me!~
#610 Old 13th Nov 2007 at 8:32 PM
Quote: Originally posted by *Faye*
In case anyone was wondering, here are some statistics on abortion from the CDC.

The highest percentages of reported abortions were for women aged <25 years (52%), women who were white (57%), and unmarried women (81%). Fifty-eight percent of all abortions for which gestational age was reported were performed at <8 weeks of gestation, and 88% were performed before 13 weeks. Few abortions were performed after 15 weeks of gestation; 4.3% were obtained at 16--20 weeks and 1.4% were obtained at >21 weeks. A total of 31 reporting areas submitted data stating that they performed medical (nonsurgical) procedures, making up 1.0% of all reported procedures from the 42 areas with adequate reporting on type of procedure.

So it's fair to say the the average abortion takes place around 10 weeks? In ten weeks, the fetus' organ systems are growing quickly. Internal organs are starting to form and the vital organs including the liver, kidney, intestines and brain will start functioning. Not just a chunk of DNA.

A graphic pic of a 10 week old aborted baby's hands that were torn off. (The image is real)

Just in case anyone wanted to know.

Regardless if it's a chunk of DNA or "a fully formed baby" it still canot survive on it's own at this time. So it's still the womans call on if it lives or dies. Everyday we make decisions that determine if some thing lives or dies whats the diffrence?
#611 Old 13th Nov 2007 at 8:47 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Tabk
Regardless if it's a chunk of DNA or "a fully formed baby" it still canot survive on it's own at this time. So it's still the womans call on if it lives or dies. Everyday we make decisions that determine if some thing lives or dies whats the diffrence?


Whats the diffrence? This is YOUR CHILD. Your childrens lives should hold some value, shouldn't they? Or are they disposable as trash?
Test Subject
#612 Old 13th Nov 2007 at 9:01 PM
Quote: Originally posted by *Faye*
Whats the diffrence? This is YOUR CHILD. Your childrens lives should hold some value, shouldn't they? Or are they disposable as trash?


You seem to expect that everyone sees children as precious. A woman who is pregnant against her will may not see that foetus as precious at all. It is a parasite to them.

A foetus is still not aware of it's existance. A foetus still can't think. A foetus is most likely to not be capable of pain (how do you recognise pain if you have not developed conciousness? An unconcious person doesn't feel pain does it?).

Why should that be put before the grown woman who would have to endure it for nine months? We put animals to sleep, they are more alive than that foetus. What makes humans have more right to live than an animal? Why are we such a magically special species?

Why should a woman have to suffer because some people believe the foetus is more important than her now?

~Love is blind, i know this because you cant see me!~
Lab Assistant
#613 Old 13th Nov 2007 at 9:48 PM
Quote: Originally posted by *Faye*
Whats the diffrence? This is YOUR CHILD. Your childrens lives should hold some value, shouldn't they? Or are they disposable as trash?


When it's between my life and a fetus, I'll take mine. Am I being selfish? Probably. But I don't care. Human beings are selfish creatures. When you speed in your car, you are being selfish because you are putting the lives of other human beings in danger. I would rather be selfish than bring an unwanted child into the world. It would make both of our lives easier.

I don't think abortions should be considered a form of birth control and I do think that people should be responsible for their actions. But sometimes, the irresponsible thing would be to have the child. If you can't give it a good, loving environment, you shouldn't have it. Adoption could be an option, but there are so many children in the system that are being bounced from foster home to foster home already. Have you not heard the horror stories of children being starved, mistreated and verbally/physically/sexually abused in foster care? Why don't we deal with these children first, the ones who really need help, before we bring more unwanted ones into the world.

What if the Hokey Pokey IS what it's all about?

"Ma'am, your eyes look red. Have you been drinking?"
"Officer, your eyes look glazed. Have you been eating donuts?"
Scholar
#614 Old 14th Nov 2007 at 12:12 AM
Quote: Originally posted by *Faye*
In ten weeks, the fetus' organ systems are growing quickly. Internal organs are starting to form and the vital organs including the liver, kidney, intestines and brain will start functioning. Not just a chunk of DNA.

Mice have a liver, kidney, intestines and a functioning brain. But there is no law against setting mousetraps around your house to kill mice.

You need to come up with something better than that. We don't offer moral protection to anything with a liver, kidney, intestines and functioning brain. We offer it to human beings (I'd extend it to the great apes too, but that's a totally different debate).

Quote: Originally posted by *Faye*
A graphic pic of a 10 week old aborted baby's hands that were torn off. (The image is real)

Just in case anyone wanted to know.

Here is a picture of the whole embryo (it's not even a foetus yet, let alone a baby). From an unbiased source too.

In addition, we don't offer protection to anything that looks like a baby. Else you'd have to protect all baby-like dolls too.

BTW Faye, I noticed the Bible quotes in your sig. Did you read my post on Bible quotes relavant to abortion?
Lab Assistant
#615 Old 14th Nov 2007 at 12:42 AM
I've seen a lot of impassioned pleas for the lives of "your children." A lot of denial about how far the right to life actually extends (not to a fetus). A lot of name calling (especially selfish). A lot of what-ifs. A lot of denial that a pregnancy - any pregnancy - carries with it a good deal of risk for both the mother and the fetus. Also, I've seen a lot of denial that the adoption system would not be able to handle a sudden influx. And I've seen people pretty much ignore the consequences of creating a black market for abortion. Those making the impassioned pleas have a good point: what if it's murder. What they don't have is a good plan for dealing with the consequences that would set in once abortion was banned.

So let's say I'm pregnant. I don't think I am, but who knows? It could happen. So let's say I am. Here are the stats for this hypothetical situation: I'm married to a man who doesn't want kids - ever. I don't want kids - ever. I've used birth control, but I guess the method of choice failed. I tried to get on prescription bc, but Planned Parenthood couldn't help me (due to said complicated history and a few other factors). I'm unemployed. I have no health insurance. I have a complicated medical history that makes my situation a bit more dangerous than most. If I were to get pregnant today, those would be my realities. If pro-lifers had their way, abortion wouldn't be an option for me. So, for those who want to ban abortion, what should people like me do when we end up accidentally pregnant?

I'm serious. If we're going to ban abortion, don't you think we should set up some support systems first? Don't you think potential mothers should be able to get health care? How is someone like me, who can't even get the Planned Parenthood to prescribe birth control, supposed to get prenatal care and pay for the delivery without bringing the kid into a family that finds itself bankrupted by medical bills and job loss? Shouldn't we set up a system for that before we take away the abortion option? And then there's the subject of employment. How is an unemployed pregnant woman supposed to find a job that will be okay with her taking time off for these doctor's appointments and for the delivery so soon upon being hired? Shouldn't we set up a system for that before we take away the abortion option? Somehow those obstacles have been navigated, I didn't die, and now the baby's here. If I keep it, how am I supposed to afford it when the cost of daycare alone would probably eat up any salary I could get? And if I choose adoption, like so many mothers would, how does the already overflowing system grow to accommodate more babies? I guess the question here is: if you ban abortion, how will you deal with the real world consequences?
#616 Old 14th Nov 2007 at 6:14 AM
Quote: Originally posted by VeryAlliegh
You disregarded the main point of my arguement. Not once did I bring up religion, and yet you think that was the only factor in my thinking. It's not, it's not even in there at all. I simply said that you don't know if it's a life, and if it is you shouldn't destroy it because you don't want them. We are not in the middle ages, hardly anybody dies from child birth anymore. Again, I'm not debating about if the baby feels or not, it's if the baby has life or not, and science can never tell you that.I dont care about the chances, that's like saying if I ran across a busy highway, what are the chances of being hit, except it's not because I made that choice over my life. Yes, this is your life, but it's the baby's life, too. And if you have an abortion, they WILL die, as opposed to you who has a one in a million (that nunber getting smaller everyday) chance from having the baby.

BOLD 1
who saids people hardly dies from childbirth, infact its on the rise .

Death rate extrapolations for USA for Pregnancy: 399 per year, 33 per month, 7 per week, 1 per day, 0 per hour, 0 per minute, 0 per second.
http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/p/pregnancy/stats.htm

BOLD 2
How is it the baby's life too? its a life cells, but does it go to work kind of life, please elaborate.

BOLD 3
Where exactly did you get that one in a million chance statistic from? Because what I got is,
Incidence (annual) of Pregnancy: more than 4 million; 1 million adolescent U.S. females become pregnant every year
Incidence Rate: approx 1 in 68 or 1.47% or 4 million people in USA [about data]
Incidence extrapolations for USA for Pregnancy: 4,000,000 per year, 333,333 per month, 76,923 per week, 10,958 per day, 456 per hour, 7 per minute, 0 per second.
http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/p/pregnancy/stats.htm

7 pregnancy per minute come on.

Quote: Originally posted by VeryAlliegh
People can wait up to five years without ever getting a child in the adoption system. There aren't too many. I'm not saying everybody should have kids to put in the system, but if it happens the world won't end because you put them up for adoption. And, maybe, if people have to have the baby, more of them wouldn't be having unprotected sex in the first place. It's not like birth control doesn't exsist. There are so many forms, it doesn't matter how much sex you have you can keep from getting pregnant. So many doctors have said that if you use two forms, you won't have to worry about it.
And again you have disregarded my point in the last post.


People have to wait for 5-7 years to get an approved adoption, do you know why? it is not because there is a shortage of babies, it is because the adoption agency need to find the best possible home of "qualify parents". And that is exactly what the society are in shortage of, not many people are qualify to adopt. So in your opinion anyone, be it tom, dick, harry, sally, jane or susan can adopt? doesn't matter if the babies goes into a psychotic family? Do you know that the number of baby deemed to be unfit for adoptions are actually very high because they have complicated health problems? Do you know the government are subsidising these babies once they are adopted? And do you know while waiting for qualify parents to appear, these unwanted babies grow up fast making their way into the unwanted list? who then are going to adopte these unwanted human? You perhaps?

Birth control Method and statistic for your perusal . (Note: none of them has a 100% chance)
#617 Old 14th Nov 2007 at 7:30 AM
Quote: Originally posted by *Faye*
Whats the diffrence? This is YOUR CHILD. Your childrens lives should hold some value, shouldn't they? Or are they disposable as trash?

No, children are not disposable as trash, but that's the point, it's not a child yet. And in the case of rape no it would not be my child since I had no choice of it getting there.
And no I do not think of that attitude as selfish. There are more selfish things you could do in life than have an abortion.
Moderator of Extreme Limericks
#618 Old 15th Nov 2007 at 4:24 PM
Ok everyone, I think this topic has pretty much been debated to the point of exhaustion. You've all made some good points, but the thread is just getting too large to reasonably keep open (and it's getting difficult to make a new point, because there's no easy way to tell if someone else has already posted the same argument).

It's time to take a break from this for now. If someone in the future would like to resurrect this topic.... please PM me first. If you have new points to make in your opening argument, then I'll see what I can do.

:locked

There's always money in the banana stand.
 
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