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Alchemist
Original Poster
#1 Old 30th Dec 2005 at 6:53 AM
Default Tangent Normals
Bumpmapping requires a mesh section called "Tangent Normals" (or BumpMap Normals). These are essentially vectors that are a cross between the bone axis and the "average" (or smoothed) vertex normal on an edge. If extended in the opposite direction also, they are the equivalent of a line that touches only at one point, perpendicular to the axis from the center outward) and are used by the rendering software to make the proper shading adjustments for bumpmapping.
My whole purpose in this post is for an idea where I could look to find any debugging or log messages that might help me determine why my re-creation of this section will not work right. I have tweaked models so that I can view my recreations along with the originals in the MeshView program, that comes with the DirectX SDK and allows "normals" to be viewed (by swapping tangent normals for the regular normals). The two sets are virtually indistinguishable.
Screenshots can be supplied.
<* Wes *>

If you like to say what you think, be sure you know which to do first.
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Alchemist
Original Poster
#2 Old 31st Dec 2005 at 6:26 PM
Default Alien skins interaction
I know I'm carrying on a conversation with myself here, but I saw some strange behavior in the Create-A-Sim area.
When I selected the alien, zombie and some other custom skins (for an adult male model), the clothesless models, and the famous MTS2 male panties hacks, appeared with the male underware package, complete with bumpmapping (The Semloh creation).
The Panties were placed overtop of the shorts from the Semloh model.
So you do you figure this happens? The "clothesless models" are several in which the clothing items comtain texture maps that have no color in them. An old hack, from 'way back' in time (by my guess a Sims2 Modding Century).
Stranger things have occurred... but mostly, like crop circles, there is a scientific explanation. I just hope to find it.
<* Wes *>

If you like to say what you think, be sure you know which to do first.
Test Subject
#3 Old 4th Jan 2006 at 7:08 PM
Gawd I wish I had something to offer here. I've very much missed bumpmaps in my BodyChop projects. Hope you get this sussed out. Go Wes, our hero!
Alchemist
Original Poster
#4 Old 5th Jan 2006 at 3:39 AM
Well, I have felt that I am close for quite a while.
With some quick changes to my test plugins, I can export the tangent normals in the section where the regular normals go. And I can essentially do the same for the 'original' mesh.
I use the DirectX(JT) exporter on both, and can then use the "view normals' options to visualize both sets.
I've got them looking the same. But to date, they still don't work.
Saving the originals and restoring them is not an option, only because it then restricts you to keeping the same number of vertices as the original. And that is not anything I feel would be of much use.
I need to learn how to recreate them. The data is already in the model, between the vertices and faces and all that. So there is some way of doing it.
I've googled myself to death looking for help. There are probably a large number of graphics professionals that know this inside and out. Alas, I am not yet one of that select set.
I'll keep trying. Bumpmapping makes some neat effects.
<* Wes *>

If you like to say what you think, be sure you know which to do first.
Admin of Randomness
retired moderator
#5 Old 5th Jan 2006 at 8:14 AM
Just so you know, I'm cheering for you too.

"Undertake something that is difficult; it will do you good. Unless you try to do something beyond what you have already mastered, you will never grow." - Ronald E. Osborn

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Alchemist
Original Poster
#6 Old 6th Jan 2006 at 5:16 AM
I finally got another beta of MilkShape that I was waiting on, and I reproduced the model, but inserted the original Tangent Normals.
It failed to bump map.
There is some other data associated with the "target indexes" that are sets of what appear to be vectors, although they don't seem to match up in any recognizable pattern. I have modelled these before, and even shared pictures with others, but we haven't figured out what they are for.
"Target Indexes" always appear in models that have morphs, but then I have seen tangent normals in models that had no morphs or bones (like the base part for the Venus statue).
Even if I don't get the bumpmapping licked right away, there is enough good stuff happening (multiple bone and skin weighting, shadows disappearing) that when MilkShape is ready, I will be releasing these for testing, even if we have to wait on the bumpmapping (which may require data that I cannot merely recreate and have no where to store).
Thanks,
<* Wes *>

p.s. The Longhorn cow I am using for my current avatar (always subject to change without notice) had a little slate grey bull calf a couple weeks ago. He's sooo cute!

If you like to say what you think, be sure you know which to do first.
Alchemist
Original Poster
#7 Old 18th Jan 2006 at 5:04 AM
For anyone interested in bumpmapping, I am thoroughly stumped.
I have gotten some excellent coding tips from some real 3D pros that have enabled me to make good tangent normals.
I have gone so far as including the original tangent normals (extracted from the original mesh) in the exported mesh in place of the ones I create, and still cannot get a mesh to show bumpmapping on an object with a custom mesh.
I've tried direct override (.package file had GMDC with original TGI in it) and a mesh package in group 0x1c050000 linked to the 3DID via the CRES and SHPE lines, and I can make changes in the shape of the "semloh" bumpmap tester's body, but no bumpmapping.
I am suspecting that bumpmapping has deliberately been diaabled on custom content meshes, because I've run out of reasons why it shouldn't work for me, especially when I copied the bumpmapping normal data straight from the original mesh (and the triangles, normals and vertices are all in original order).
So I am dropping any further efforts at working on this issue.
<* Wes *>

If you like to say what you think, be sure you know which to do first.
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