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Original Poster
#1 Old 8th Sep 2010 at 10:57 PM
Default Thoughts: Koran-Burning Pastor Will Go Forward
Quote:
Koran-Burning Pastor Will Go Forward
Updated: Wednesday, 08 Sep 2010, 12:49 PM EDT
Published : Tuesday, 07 Sep 2010, 6:39 PM EDT

(NewsCore) - The pastor of a Gainesville, Fla., church vowed Tuesday to move forward with a plan to burn the Koran on September 11 despite condemnation from U.S. officials and world leaders who believe it could incite violence in the Middle East.

Terry Jones, pastor at the Dove World Outreach Center told myFOXorlando.com that his intentions have not been swayed despite increasing protest.

“We feel it’s maybe the right time for America to stand up,” Jones told myFOXorlando.com. “How long are we going to bow down? How long are we going to be controlled, by the terrorists, by radical Islam?”

“We feel it’s time for the church to stand up,” he added.

Gen. David Petraeus, commander of U.S. and NATO forces in Afghanistan, warned Monday the Koran burning could endanger U.S. troops and the safety of Americans worldwide and inflame and incite violence.

However, Jones said the group would not be swayed.

“We understand the generals concerns, we are taking those into consideration,” Jones told myFOXorldando.com.

NATO Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen, in a visit to the White House Tuesday, joined Petraeus in speaking out against Jones’ decision to go forward, saying he “strongly condemned” such an act, and urged all people to “demonstrate a respect for faith.”

State Department Spokesman P.J. Crowley called the decision “un-American.”

“It is un-American in the sense that it does not represent the views of the vast majority of Americans, who are respectful of religions -- of the world's great religions,” Crowley told reporters during the daily press briefing.

The church has received not only messages condemning the planned burning, but threats have been made against Jones and the members of his church, according to myFOXorlando.com. The threats are being taken seriously by law enforcement in Gainesville.

However, if anything should happen Jones said he would not feel he or his church was to blame.

“We will not be responsible,” Jones said. “We are only reacting to the violence that is already there in that religion.”

Jones did receive backing from New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg, who while admitting the plan was “distasteful”, added that Jones’ decision was protected by his First Amendment right, the New York Post reported.link

"I don't think he would like it if somebody burned a book in his religion that he thinks is holy. ... But the First Amendment protects everybody and you can't say we're going to apply the First Amendment in only those cases where wClick Here e are in agreement," Bloomberg said.


So, I just recently seen this on the news where I currently stay here is the link: http://www.myfoxatlanta.com/dpps/ne...0100907_9533823

but anywhoo, I kept hearing this in my sleep and I was thinking, wow I really hope this is a dream. However, it is FAR from a dream. People are becoming very much more ignorant by the years. The first thing that comes to mind when I heard of this is how people are most likely throwing the 1st Amendment into the picture. However, the 1st Amendment goes out the window when it causes mass destruction such as deaths. I want to understand, what is so important about burning the Koran? What point is it trying to prove?
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Scholar
#2 Old 8th Sep 2010 at 11:30 PM
Basically it's proof of America's intolerence. We need to rope up Europe and drag it over to America so it can learn some manners. It's essentially an only-child of a country which has grown up to think that it is always right, it is number one, and it has every right to bully other people into believing and doing what they believe/do.

Basically they're burning the Koran because they make the following thought process:

Terrorists = Muslims = Holy Book Koran
Holy Book Koran + Flames = Showing the terroists that us Americans shall never be beaten!!!

Unfortunately, they forgot that America is the "land of the free" and the "flagship of tolerance and democracy" whilst they made this equation.

Note: I'm aware that not all Americans are this intolerant. It's just that America has a slight reputation, particularly when it comes to schools teaching children about other religions and nations.

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Instructor
#3 Old 8th Sep 2010 at 11:51 PM
The Bible has taught "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

My father had a great idea. He said someone with money needs to rent one of those farm spraying planes, and fly over and dump water on the fire and all the protesters. I wonder how much they would like it then.

All this is, is another Westboro-type church, trying to gain their 15 minutes in the spotlight.

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Forum Resident
#4 Old 9th Sep 2010 at 12:17 AM Last edited by Element Leaf : 9th Sep 2010 at 12:36 AM.
I have a lot to say about this, but I'll let the conversation grow before I really start acting pedantic.

This man is an idiot, and he hardly embodies anything about the values and freedoms we have in the United States. This isn't a matter of the First Amendment being violated, but a matter of respect.

I believe that if he wants to burn the Koran (Qur'an), which is a source of wisdom and knowledge for Muslims everywhere, he should light himself on fire, since he is also a source of wisdom and knowledge (I'm using these terms loosely) for his congregation. Fair's fair.

I'm guessing he flunked world history in school, or else he'd understand why book burning is an utterly moronic thing to do.
Lab Assistant
#5 Old 9th Sep 2010 at 1:01 AM Last edited by Nabila_Ici : 9th Sep 2010 at 11:07 AM.
Is he basically saying "hey, we're going to respond to radical islam by being radical too!" ? Because fighting fire with fire (no pun intended) is such a good idea.

Quite ironically, just like terrorists are making Islam look bad, he's making Christianity and Americans look bad. Which is a shame, since it seems that a lot of Christians and Americans are against this, just like the majority of Muslims are against terrorism. I think he's actually giving the terrorists some leverage here, because now they can say 'Look! They're burning the word of God right in front of you! We must wipe them off the face of the earth!'

There are probably going to be riots here, which I am not looking forward to. Not only is he endangering Americans in the Middle East, he's putting so many other lives at risk: what if some idiot decides to attack the American schools, for example, because of this? 70-80% of students that go to American schools here are actually nationals. They're most definitely going to have to beef up security around the churches, the synagogue, and the American embassy here. Oh, and the Israeli one, because most Egyptians will try to find a way to blame it on Israel. It's just so stupid.
Field Researcher
#6 Old 9th Sep 2010 at 8:22 AM
Quote: Originally posted by fragglerocks

All this is, is another Westboro-type church, trying to gain their 15 minutes in the spotlight.


I thought the same thing too either that or the pastor is Really fucking batshit stupid. This is offensive to both Muslims and Non-Muslims alike.

There are no stupid questions, just stupid people!
Lab Assistant
#7 Old 9th Sep 2010 at 8:54 AM
I seriously think this man Jones should be taken into custody. There must be some kind of law in the states about 'Inciting a riot' because thats entirely what he is doing. To be honest it scares me to think what this act might lead to. I'm not in the States but I worry for the safety of people who are because this is exactly the kind of excuse that muslim terrorists are looking for to begin another major attack.
That's why I think he should be stopped before it is allowed to happen. Let him cry that we are not allowing him freedom to express his views - it works both ways.
If he can't be put away on a criminal charge then have him sectioned. He's obviously not sane and needs putting away for his own (and his country's) safety.

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#8 Old 9th Sep 2010 at 9:06 AM
Dear Muslims,

I'm really sorry you have to deal with asshats like this. But please know it's not representative of what all Americans think. There's some of us that are actually quite tolerant and chill. Unfortunately there's dumbasses in every group that ruin it for the rest of us. Please try to keep that in mind, and to not paint all of us with the same "hateful asshole" brush that our dumbasses try to paint ya'll with for the whole "terrorist" thing. The loud ones are just the most obvious and it's hard for us to shout over someone who is fueled by hate and ignorance.

Thanks,
The rest of the US
Retired
retired moderator
#9 Old 9th Sep 2010 at 9:13 AM
I refer you all to the words of one of the wisest women in America:

Quote:
I would hope that Pastor Terry Jones and his supporters will consider the ramifications of their planned book-burning event. It will feed the fire of caustic rhetoric and appear as nothing more than mean-spirited religious intolerance. Don’t feed that fire. If your ultimate point is to prove that the Christian teachings of mercy, justice, freedom, and equality provide the foundation on which our country stands, then your tactic to prove this point is totally counter-productive.

Our nation was founded in part by those fleeing religious persecution. Freedom of religion is integral to our charters of liberty. We don’t need to agree with each other on theological matters, but tolerating each other without unnecessarily provoking strife is how we ensure a civil society. In this as in all things, we should remember the Golden Rule

- Sarah Palin


Indeed. Hell HAS frozen over.

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#10 Old 9th Sep 2010 at 9:23 AM
Indeed. Hell HAS frozen over.

No shit, man. I actually find myself agreeing with Sarah Palin on something? What is this - I don't even...
Née whiterider
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#11 Old 9th Sep 2010 at 11:24 AM
I know right, HP...

To be honest, this reminds me of being eleven years old again. You know, a bully steals another kid's bag and throws it out the window, or sneaks onto their computer in IT and sets the desktop background to a picture of a hairy sumo wrestler in a nappy. I'm quite convinced that this pastor's thought process is basically "lololol nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah we're being diiiicks and you can't do aaanything about it!". Stupid behaviour which doesn't make much long-term difference to the world, and is specifically designed to offend and anger the target for no reason whatsoever beyond "'Cause I can and I don't like you" - except that burning a Qu'ran is probably one of the most offensive acts imaginable to most Muslims, and may well indeed have long-term effects. It is stupid and petty and childish, and demonstrates all the intelligence, respect, and political awareness of a lump of snot.

So yeah, apparently I'm more radical in my opinion (or at least my expression of it) than Sarah Palin now.

What I lack in decorum, I make up for with an absence of tact.
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#12 Old 9th Sep 2010 at 11:44 AM
Also, this is sort of related... in response, there's now International Buy a Qur'an Day: http://www.facebook.com/event.php?e...98285997&ref=nf

I think it's a neat idea. I'm agnostic-ish but I find holy texts fascinating. I'm off to Amazon to see if I can find a pretty one.

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#13 Old 9th Sep 2010 at 1:40 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Lemon&Lime
Basically it's proof of America's intolerence. We need to rope up Europe and drag it over to America so it can learn some manners.
I do quite agree with the rest of the post you made, but unfortunately the intolerance against Muslims has taken a big, big leap forward in Europe these days too.

Look at the Geert Wilders controversy in the Netherlands. He and his party got about 25 seats in a parlament of 150 in our recent elections, till this day we have no working government, because the other parties can't sort it out if they want to go rule our country with him or not. The only reason the mayority of the members of our Christian parties don't want to work with him is because forbidding Islam gives a precedent for forbidding anything on an anti-religious base. So, that mean essentially Christian parties could be forbidden too.

Also look at what is happening in France with Burka-prohibition laws etc.

These small examples are just the tip of the iceberg, so to say.

I can even notice it in my own feelings. I'm all for equallity and rights and freedom of speech and open borders and giving everyone an equal chance. However I am also starting to get fed up with being called 'a whore' when walking around in sneakers, jeans and a t-shirt by 'certain men' from my neighborhood. Gay friends get bashed and attacked.

I've been living in one of the 4 mayor cities in the Netherlands for the past 11 years. When I came to live here nothing like that happend in the streets. I wouldn't say it is a daily deal now, but once, twice a month maybe. It does make me feel unsafe in a way.

I've lived abroad, not in a completely different culture as some Muslims may end up with coming here, but my idea was always: When in Rome, do as the Romans do. And that is not what some of these people are doing. They come into my country fully expecting they can keep up their own religious morals no matter how this clashes with the Dutch Tolerance. I think this is a problem that is affecting a lot of Western European countries right now.
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#14 Old 9th Sep 2010 at 4:58 PM
Maybe this is peculiar to me, appelsap, since I've lived mostly in areas where there are plenty of muslims present, but where they're very clearly the minority; but I've always found that, while the Muslims I know haven't adopted "when in Rome", they have taken the view that they will follow their laws and morality, and others may not, and that's none of their business. No-one has the right to yell insults across the streets, regardless of the morality of the situation or of the majority views - that's just common respect. Still, though, it is sadly always the idiots who are most vocal - and in some cases, the most dangerous too.

What I lack in decorum, I make up for with an absence of tact.
Field Researcher
#15 Old 9th Sep 2010 at 5:27 PM
Does anyone else feel the irony of this being carried out by a group that calls itself "World Outreach Center"?

American Muslims will most likely act like Americans. They may protest, but few, if any will go rampaging in the streets.

Muslims living in Muslim theocracies, on the other hand, have the Koran as their law, and their law specifies retribution for the desecration of the Koran. There are American citizens over there, and plenty of other innocent people from other countries, who will be hurt or killed because of this act, because the laws in these countries condone those actions.

Having been warned of that, one of the church associates said, essentially, "they knew the job was dangerous when they took it," speculating that this act would make the citizens of Muslim countries no more dangerous to Americans there than they already are.

Yeah. While you're at it, send over a few thousand high powered automatic weapons and maybe some biological weapons. It won't be your fault if they use it to kill innocent people.
Mad Poster
#16 Old 9th Sep 2010 at 6:20 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Nabila_Ici
Is he basically saying "hey, we're going to respond to radical islam by being radical too!" ? Because fighting fire with fire (no pun intended) is such a good idea.
As far as I can tell that is exactly what he's doing. Hypocritical, much?!

Has this man even thought at all about the kind of consequences this kind of stupid, childish action could have? I think not. Whilst I understand what his motives are (and could not disagree more with them) I don't understand what he is actually hoping to achieve by doing this. It makes absolutely no sense at all.
Instructor
#17 Old 9th Sep 2010 at 7:12 PM
I have doubts that this protest burning will ever even happen. If the government truly feels that this will lead to soldiers and Americans overseas being harmed, they WILL step in and put a stop to this, whether they are following their own laws or not. It is never in any country's best interest to start a religious war. Too many lives are lost...over what? A deity we can't even prove exists?

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#18 Old 9th Sep 2010 at 7:18 PM
The US military/government stepping in to stop what is a highly asshole move - but fully protected speech ("speech" being more widely defined as sort of freedom of expression) - would result in a hell of a lot more trouble than the actual burning would. Being an asshole isn't illegal - nor should it be. Burning a book that you legally own is not illegal - nor should it be. Yes, it's a symbol and one that can cause a huge shitstorm, especially with the -way- it's being done so publicly (I'm sure plenty of fundie whackjobs have burned copies already) - but I'd be damn upset if they used force to stop it, even though I think it's wrong that he's doing it and that he shouldn't - that's kind of what free speech is all about. People can express themselves in ways you may not like - but they're allowed to, just as you can express yourself in ways they may not like, too.

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#19 Old 9th Sep 2010 at 7:31 PM
I certainly disagree with what he is doing, but there are a lot of things I disagree with that people do in the name of "their rights". I don't believe he is any more radical than people who burn flags (American flags are the biggest target), bibles and churches. Generally Christians do "turn the other cheek", but if this Pastor is making a stand and doing something radical, it is his "right" to do so. Do you honestly think that One guy, burning One group of "holy books" will condem our country to terroristic anarchy? Do Americans go on killing sprees every time something we hold dear to our beliefs is desecrated? No...I don't think so. If we did, then the entire Middle East would be reduced to the Muslim population in Dearborn, Michigan!

Muslims need to realize that people all over this world will use their god's names in vain. They will draw funny photos of them and make people laugh. People will have premarital sex, be gay, and do all the other things listed out in the Koran as wrong. And much to their chagrin, women will not only stand up, have a voice and be counted but they will show their faces, legs and more doing it. Muslims cannot think for one minute that they can use brute force or threats of violence whenever they see these things in the world outside of their own homes. If they (Radical and non-radical Muslims alike) really think they can stop it by killing a few innocent people with a car bomb, or a group of young men and women who are just trying to do their job with sniper fire, or RUNNING BOEING 747's into REALLY BIG BUILDINGS, they are just as wrong as he is...no, more wrong, because the only thing that is destroyed with the Koran Burning is words on paper. Their destruction will not cost billions of dollars rebuilding infrastructure, no lives will be truly shattered, and no children will be orphaned.

Do I understand what and why this is happening? Yes. Do I agree with it? No. That is why I won't be participating. I think there are far bigger atrocities in this country and abroad that we can all be worrying about than this. Let the Christians think/believe what they want, let the Muslims think/believe what they want, the Jews, Athiests, Democrats, Republicans, everyone...who is to say who is really right?

Tolerance begins with the individal and what I choose to tolerate may be different than what someone else will. Maybe he thinks he has tolerated enough.

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#20 Old 9th Sep 2010 at 8:15 PM
I'm pretty sure non-radical Muslims don't kill people, generally... and I agree, it's a real shame that there are extremists in Islam and, more so, that there are perfectly normal Muslims who become extremist. But at the end of the day, that's the situation - we should continue doing things that piss off religious extremists if there's a good reason for doing so - say, allowing gay marriage - but not when there is absolutely no benefit whatsoever, to anyone, in that action. I wouldn't smear shit all over an altar, and nor would I burn a Qu'ran, because there is no point offending and upsetting people if no-one benefits.

What I lack in decorum, I make up for with an absence of tact.
Forum Resident
#21 Old 9th Sep 2010 at 8:23 PM
Quote:
Muslims cannot think for one minute that they can use brute force or threats of violence whenever they see these things in the world outside of their own homes.
This just in: Most of them don't. The worst you'll get is a dirty look, and everybody has the right to those. It could explain why I get them on a daily basis.

Quote:
The only thing that is destroyed with the Koran Burning is words on paper. Their destruction will not cost billions of dollars rebuilding infrastructure, no lives will be truly shattered, and no children will be orphaned.
This is not a good comparison. All of those things you pointed out? Those are atrocious crimes. This is a matter of respect. Free speech only works when people are accepting of other people's opinions and beliefs. We should be capable of agreeing to disagree. The problem here is that instead of approaching fear with understanding, this pastor attacked his fear with hatred. The flag burners do the same thing, and are treated the same way. Sure, they may not make international news, but that's just how today's media works.

The best we can hope for is that American Muslims will speak out with disappointment, not vitriolic anger, in their words. Americans, regardless of their spiritual beliefs, understand the importance of free speech and other Constitutional rights. They also understand that the only way to uphold these rights for every person is to be the bigger person and shrug it off.

Even so, why should we subject them to this? The crimes committed nine years ago were done by a handful of disturbed men. There are over one and a half billion Muslims who had no part in this. They have denounced the work of these men, and many who have no ties to the United States have offered their condolences.

Peace requires respect, and respect requires understanding.
Lab Assistant
#22 Old 9th Sep 2010 at 8:39 PM
Quote: Originally posted by dadebabe09

...no, more wrong, because the only thing that is destroyed with the Koran Burning is words on paper. Their destruction will not cost billions of dollars rebuilding infrastructure, no lives will be truly shattered, and no children will be orphaned.



See, this is where I disagree with you. Perhaps none of this is going to happen in the USA, but can you imagine the turmoil it's going to cause in the Middle East? Sorry if I'm repeating myself, but people will be angry. Now I can't predict the future, but there are probably going to be riots and fights in the streets, and people will get hurt. Most people here aren't even going to take 5 minutes out to try and understand what is going on; all they'll understand is American's are burning Qu'rans, Americans are bad, and anything that has anything to do with America is bad. So buildings may come down, people may be attacked, and it's very likely that the people getting hurt aren't actually Americans either, but locals who work for American franchises, businesses or go to American schools.

What is he aiming to achieve? To scare off the terrorists? Because sorry, all this is doing is helping the terrorists. It gives them more material to brain wash ignorant youths with. I wouldn't be surprised if the anti-USA attitude over here grew because of this.
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#23 Old 9th Sep 2010 at 8:55 PM
Except that everybody makes their own choices. If someone is an asshole but their actions don't directly harm or affect your daily life, the appropriate response is to shrug it off, call them an asshole, and get on with your day. If the reaction to burning a book is riots, murders, and so forth, that is an inappropriate reaction. It doesn't necessarily work as a cause-and-effect when the effect is disproportionate to the cause. It may be a predicted cause, and it may be a real asshole thing to do, but what individuals do in reaction is their own decision. If people don't take the time to understand and act out of ignorance and hatred, then that is their own stupid decision. The only thing that will -actually- be caused is for a small lump of cellulose and ink to be turned to ash. What people decide to do in reaction is up to them - and they're responsible for it, nobody else.

(No, I can't believe I'm defending this asshole either - I really don't think he should do it, but I do believe he should be -allowed- to do it, if that makes any sense.)
Scholar
#24 Old 9th Sep 2010 at 9:16 PM
I don't think I really have to say anything on it; I'm sure I'm well enough known for my position on it to be guessed.

Anyway, though, I know this is a bad idea for me to say, and it is partly out of utter irritation, but if he wants to burn Qu'rans, then hey, let's burn Bibles then! I bet he'll just love that, eh? And when he and his ilk go around bitching about it, hey, you want to burn one religion's holy text? Then eye for an eye. Because it's also our right to burn your holy text.

No, but really, what has to be done is it must be made known that these people are not representative of America as a whole. The problem people from those Middle Eastern regions might not quite grasp just the true extent of free speech in America, being they've never had it themselves. That it cannot be stopped by having the President simply stopping it, that it doesn't work that way. Nobody but themselves can stop it. We can protest it and condemn it all we want, but ultimately, nobody but themselves can stop it without violating a Constitutional right.

Quote: Originally posted by dadebabe09
The only thing that is destroyed with the Koran Burning is words on paper. Their destruction will not cost billions of dollars rebuilding infrastructure, no lives will be truly shattered, and no children will be orphaned.

I have to completely disagree.

Who benefits the most from having pictures and video of the burning of Qu'rans? Terrorist groups. Just like when those pictures of abused prisoners were leaked. Who used them? Terrorist groups. They used them to recruit people, they used them as tools, this jackass is giving them material, is giving them motivation! So that they could point to this stuff and say "Look how much they hate Islam! We must fight against the vile Americans!"

Is that a shillelagh in your pocket, or are you just sinning against God?
Lab Assistant
#25 Old 9th Sep 2010 at 9:40 PM
HystericalParoxysm; Yeah, he has the right to be an asshole. But if he had any common sense, there should be a little light going off in his head telling him it's not a good thing to be an asshole (at least, that's what I was raised to think), especially if he's going to be doing more harm than good. He may see the Qu'ran as pure evil, and it's his right to protest against something that he sees as unfair/corrupt/whatever, but why do it in such a moronic way?
Example: I could burn the American flag, it's not illegal here, and not a lot of people would object - I'm burning a piece of material, so what? Undoubtedly it would piss off so many people in the USA, and would just increase the anti-Arab feeling over there and who knows, maybe some idiot decides to go out and shoot someone who reminds them of the Middle East. It's just stupid not to think of the consequences before acting.

And I agree as well, that if people do act out of ignorance it's their own stupid decision - but you do have to remember that not everyone where I am has access to enough information to come to their own conclusions, it's not their fault really. But nonetheless, they wouldn't have to make stupid decisions if he didn't go through with his stupid decision (I hope that makes sense).
 
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