Very true!!
It's a vicious cycle ppl try to end religion, and the religious try to expand theirs... religion and society can co-exsist if they are kept apart.
It's not fair to force ppl to give up what they belive and it's not fair to condem those don't believe. heaven, hell, incarnation, etc no one knows what happens after, we could ALL be going to the same place for all we know.

I just think that this Atheist vs. Religious situation is getting a little out of hand. Especially when people start bringing other elements into their arguments, such as politics and science. We don't need three debates in one thread, all at the same time. Save that for another day.

Anyways, people have absolutely no right to say that religion should be banned, or removed from everyone's life. That will never happen.

Atheists, as well as religious people, can go to extremes, and do the unimaginable, but it's not like every religious person you meet will go up to you and remind you every ten seconds that you're bound to hell, or to whatever, and you should convert now, or that every atheist you meet will tell you rudely that God does not exist, or that religion is pointless.

But those who do go to extremes can be ignorant, rude, obnoxious, and even violent. Those that go to extremes should just shut up, put down their fists or weapons, and leave people alone, if they can't realize that they need to respect people for their faith, if they have one or not. Each side of this debate knows how irritating life can be when ignorant people go on strikes, make bogus petitions, and put their prejudice letters in your mailbox, just to get people on their side. This is a subject that shouldn't have to be brought up, yet, it's a very serious issue in the world today.

I think religion's brought more good than bad.

However, even if religion did cause more problems, it could never be stopped. You can't just tell people not to worship and expect them to co-operate. Even over millions of years I don't think religion could just stop existing. Maybe not the same ones we believe today, but the belief in some sort of higher power.

Quoted for emphasis. :clap:


You'd be suprised. We atheists are pretty despised by some. If you think the Muslims or Jews have it bad, try professing a non-belief in God!

You'd be surprised. Not many people I've met are happy to hear that I'm an atheist. I've been lectured upon the importance of believing in a god numerous times, as well as being called sinful, devilish, Satanic (which I don't consider an insult, but whatever), hellish, etc. According to many of the self-righteous Christians I know, I am also damned and will burn in hell.

This sort of attitude boils my blood. I understand if that's someone else's belief, and it's their right to hold such a belief. But they don't have to scream in someone else's face and push it upon them. I get really, really sick of the attitude that every atheist is a terrible, sinful person. I've met some Christians who I find less morally satisfactory than I do some atheists.

We atheists aren't all that terrible. We don't bite :D.

I just finished with a mid-term today for my religious class (I go to a Catholic University) and I am not nor have I ever been really religious but I don't see the harm in actual religion. It is the people who misinterpret it or try to use religion as their excuse for certain greedy actions that make religion appear to be bad or wrong.
Religion (not just Christianity but most religions in general) usually just preaches morality and being good to yourself and others. There are stories and stuff along the way to get people interested in it but when you scrape all that away, you will find that most religions are all the same and have a good purpose.
I've met those Christians (I think Jehovahs but I am not certain) who come door to door and if you don't agree to what they are saying they will tell you that you are going to hell or whatever. Yeah, we had some bad experiences with them.
Then I know a couple Atheists who said religion is stupid and you can't be a serious student if you believe in it and stuff.
Then I've met numerous religious people and Atheists who don't really care what you are as long as you are a good person.
You can't blame religion or lack of religion for how people act, if you took religion away they would find something else to quarrel over.

First of all when I said separation of state I meant for example; religion shouldn't come into view when deciding if it is wrong or right to have an abortion. It should be a matter of if killing a fetus is the same as killing a full developed human being. Not : "But god says it is wrong to abort!"

Also as for when picking a presidential candidate it shouldn't matter what his/her religion is. It should matter if he/she is best for the country.

I know that some great scientists where very religious. Take Sir William Ramsey , the first chemist to win the Nobel Prize, he was very religious and he discovered inert gases.

It doesn't bother me much if they thank god/or who ever they believe in a speech if they win. If they believe god/or who ever they believe in is the one that helped them get where they are then that is their choice. I just don't want them making decisions on if it is correct according their religion. Because in this country we have a people of all religions and people who practice no religion, and not all of them believe the same things or even believe any thing at all.

Don't try to make assumptions solely on my opinion.

And I know sometimes people depend on their religion to get them by. Take my grandma for instance, she would pray to God everyday for her son (my dad) to come visit her to Mexico one day since he left home, she did that for 20+ years. I see it one way: we couldn't go to Mexico until my fathers citizenship was finally approved. She sees it this way: "God finally answered my prayers." I personally don't have a need for religion, sometimes my mother gets upset because she did not enforce religion on us since she used to be quite religious but even now and then she says " If it is in God's plan" and she is still a believer of god but we don't go to church like she used to when she was a young girl. heck we don't even go to church at all. No I am not atheist I'm not even sure what to call myself but i don't regret not going to church. and i don't see myself as a bad person because of it.

I really do see that it is a step up from impossible to ban religion. I would just like to see the day that more the government then science basses its decisions on whats best for the country then religious beliefs.

ugh that is long, I should stop while I'm ahead for now.

It seems to me that you're mistaking scientific theories for a set of beliefs... Plus, atheism isn't a religion: it lacks the places of worship, clergy, big books with what you can and can't do. It's much more of a philosophical view, and not all atheists agree with all the scientific theories out there. Furthermore, those can change with scientific progress, whereas religion remains more or less the same throughout the centuries. Lowering science and its theories to the level of simple "beliefs" sounds pretty surprising.
What people mean by taking religion out of politics is to not say "No, this must be illegal for everyone because our religion says we can't do it", because this would be forcing your own religious views on everyone. As an American, you also probably know the Church and the State have been separated for a while in your country!

Atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby.

(from an anonymous letter to James Randi)

Infact i think almost the same thing when I read his petition, to be exact: I was thinking this: huh how is he going to achieve that, he's going to create more hate.

then i think some more, and read some of the reply here.

someone of you ask what right does he has to want to do that, if he's american, then i would quote the first amendment. freedom of religion. that's what he's doing practicing his first amendment

and for others who think that hes offensive to think that religion isn't helpful at all, well if you read his petition carefully, he was a christian, and he did not find what he wanted there, he converted and found what he wanted as an athiest. its exactly the same as people who found what they wanted in christianity (or any other religions) so while you can understand why people need religion as whatever kind of support, why can not you see that he also is getting support from being an athiest?

we are all the same.

and do you know what this thread has proved? RELIGION CAUSE CONFLICT. so is it good or bad?

excerpt from the petition:
"So please, for the better of our future, help me in my fight against this world-wide disaster. We are more civilized now, and it has no real use. Live your lives free, do not hate, and open your minds."

which part of that is a forceful take away of your freedom?

lol, chill. he say please and help me.

at least he didn't say believe in me or rot in hell.

he may be naive enough to think that his petition will do the world any good beside creating more chaos but he isn't forcing it on anyone, its an open petition and if you don't like it don't sign. not like he goes to knock on peoples door and distribute pamphlets and say follow me bla bla bla...

Saying 'please' and 'help me' doesn't automatically make your intentions good. I could easily say, 'Please help me burgle this house'. And because I asked you nicely, its OK? What this man is proposing to do is strip people from having freedom to believe in a higher power. Sure, it may not sound forceful when he asks you nicely to 'help him' eradicate religion. But when it all boils down to it, what he is asking is the equivalent of Hitler saying that all the Jews must be killed. What he is saying, is that humans should have no real freedom to believe in what they want to believe. Which ever way you put it, nicely or no, what he is asking is beyond absurd to me.

Now whats to say that finding a faith in a God is being close-minded? Its often these people that have a great empathy and understanding for the whole of humankind, and open their minds to the possibility that everything they do has a consquence. That if you do right, you will be rewarded, and vise versa. Isn't this basic human intelligence? The idea of karma? You know when you have done something wrong, because often your wrong doings result in somebody being hurt or upset. Now obviously not all religious people are innocent. Everybody knows that when there is order, there is corruption. That yes, even Christian leaders can prove to be pedophiles and rapists. We all know this. But is this the direct result of the religion, or the fault of the person? There is good vs bad in every aspect of our lives. You cannot judge one particular group based on the actions of a small minority. The point is, eliminating religion would never stop people from being downright evil. Humans will always be evil. They would just find another outlet. Saying that religion would stop corruption, end wars, bring peace and love to all, is quite simply absurd. And so is saying that religion is the root of all evil. Humans are quick to point the finger at the obvious suspect. But pointing the finger, asking kindly and judging people are not answers.

Stop spreading hate and discrimination.

One of the reasons fundamentalist religion is dangerous is that it gives the leaders an authority that they wouldn't normally have, and encourages people to accept a certain dogma as truth, without questioning it. Communists and fascist regimes often do likewise, but in a more mundane way. All three can make ordinary people do horrible things, if that leader or dogma demands it.

We have already fought to rid the world of fascism, we are slowly eroding communism. Should we start on fundamentalism?

I have no problem with people believing in the Great Sky-Daddy, but I can't stand them doing so just because "[Insert holy leader or doctrine here] says so".

what is fundamentalist religion? why is it any more dangerous then any other religion?



I am going to disregard how you interpret what that petition says you can interpret it however you like, because to me the petition is an idiot telling people what his thought is and seeking approval. but you read too much into it, and you want to stop him thinking like that, but I don't want to stop him thinking what he is thinking, he can think what he thinks, its his right (it could be a she but lets not complicate matter)



like i said, you may have found solace in your god he found his as an athiest, so whats is wrong with that? can he not practice his right in believing what he wants to believe, can he not tell people the good he found as an athiest? Do you not tell people that God is good that you found what you seek in your God?

PS: Christianity has been doing it for century, so why can't other "religion" do it? (thous his kind of thinking may not see light in the near future, lol)



i also thought he said "Live your lives free, do not hate, and open your minds."

whats wrong with that? :confused: :confused:

No of course I know that, everbody is entitled to their own oppinions. But what my problem is is that what he is asking, however small or futile an attempt it is (like most online petitions) it is the smaller equivalent of something on a much larger scale. Eradicating religion. And that is how I interpret his/her/their statement. It may well be that the person is just an idiot but, I consider it all the same. Spreading discrimination.



I never said that I had a problem with atheism, or any other religious groupd for that matter. I have friends who are atheists and we get along fine as a group. Of course this person has every right to share his experiences and how he became enlightened away from religion, that is all well and good. However, the difference between that person and I, is that I don't create online petitions stating that everybody should be forced to belong to a religion. I don't tell people that atheists are bad/irrelevant/corrupt etc, and that we should put an end to atheism altogether for the greater good. That's where we differ. Yes I do tell people about my experiences with God, if they are willing to listen. But I just don't feel it is the same thing. Do you kind of see my point? I don't know, I'm trying to make sense.



Nothing at all. I try to do the same But in all honesty, I'm just not getting that vibe from this person, and I do get sensitive about these issues because my faith in the God I believe in is rooted into my life, and when somebody tells me or others that my religion is pointless, unnecessary and corrupt, naturally I get upset. I don't mean to sound ratty or whatever, and I apologise if I do. Again I emphasise that I have never told an atheist to become a Christian. Therefore I don't feel it is right for an atheist to tell me that I must become an atheist.

Yes there is, the petition is an idiot. don't make it any more then it is, does not make anyone look any better.

*thanks below post for the answer*

When people of a religion believe that they, and they alone, have the complete truth. Everyone else is wrong.

that and by bashing him we would have become him.

Funny to read that from someone who tried to deny atheists' freedom to not have a religion... (sorry, but that statement's still stuck somewhere down my throat)

My view is that people should be able to believe what they want, but they should not be allowed to effect the general rules of society. Examples. (And I do not mean that every single christian has these views, I am talking about the more extreme ones)

Abortion: it is legal here in the UK and in many other countries. Christians generally dislike it and want it banned. But at the current status, they are not forced to have one themselves. Yet if their beliefs affect the law then everyone, including those who do not follow their religion, have to be stuck with their rules.

Homosexuals: The bible says homosexuality is a sin. So what if some christians want to make gay bars illegal, gay sex illegal, gay adoption/parenthood illegal etc? Because of their beliefs, the beliefs of one religious group, should that be allowed? Or should it be as it is now, if you don't like homosexuality then don't date people of the same sex but those who want to are free.

Sure some of the basic laws like "thou shalt not kill" are written in the bible but those laws are common sense anyway. How can you run a society when people are free to murder one another at will? It is needed for the stability of society and you do not need to have ever read the bible to understand that. Don't stop religion, let people believe what they want as long as they don't use it to attack others or harm anyone. But it should stay the hell out of politics. Laws should be made for the benefit of the whole population, not be influenced by religious views.

Also Atheism is not a religion, there are no set rules for it. No set beliefs. It is just those who don't believe in a god or any supreme being. They do not all agree on the same theories, it is a general term for those who don't have a religion.
I am Agnostic myself, I don't know if there's a god or not, I just don't want to be dictated by a religion. How is that a religion? Is it one? Because if it isn't then neither is Atheism.

No, being an atheist isn't a religion. There are no set beliefs for atheism. You don't have to believe in evolution to be an athiest.

For K'z-flptl's sake, will you end up understanding that I, like (probably) the majority of other atheists have no religion, no religious principles, no rituals, no other things that are what a religion involves at all? Let me throw another definition in there: irreligion's.

Blame Wikipedia!

Now, will you have the stubbornness to assert to me, an atheist who knows he has no religion, that irreligion (atheism) is a religion? I feel relieved for the world... it must mean homeless people do have a home, and that jobless people actually earn a real salary

Damn, it also means dead people are all alive...

Explain to me, an agnostic, is agnosticism a religion too then?

A true separation of church and state would be ideal but is very very unlikely in the case of the US. I believe that one day in the future the current religions will be done away with, much like how some of the older polytheistic religions were done away with.

Quoted from lolli(hi lolli :D)
Homosexuals: The bible says homosexuality is a sin. So what if some christians want to make gay bars illegal, gay sex illegal, gay adoption/parenthood illegal etc? Because of their beliefs, the beliefs of one religious group, should that be allowed? Or should it be as it is now, if you don't like homosexuality then don't date people of the same sex but those who want to are free.

One thing I find amusing about the bible and homosexuality and sinning is that there are few instances of homosexuality being a sin in the bible while there are way more sins concerning heterosexuals than there are homosexuals. I once saw a graph on some page some time ago showing this but I can't seem to find it right now.

I can say much the same about the religious fanatics of America who try to do away with others rights concerning such matters like gay marriage, a few religions allow gay marriage/civil unions, yet only the christianity view about said marriages/unions seems to be the only one the government cares about. So what of our rights that are being stripped away? Why do christians get to tell us who we can and can't marry?