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Theorist
#26 Old 2nd Jun 2008 at 4:42 PM
Quote:
I disagree strongly with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.


as Spiderviveka said, as long as it is on private property, they have a Constitutionally protected Right to display it. This would fall under the purview of the First Amendment. State courts have found that individuals do have a Constitutionally protected right to display it, as long as it is on their own property. That is one of the aspects of living in a free society.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obama on ABC's This Week, discussing Obamacare
What it's saying is, is that we're not going to have other people carrying your burdens for you anymore
umm...Isn't having other people carry your medical burden exactly what national health care is?
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#27 Old 3rd Jun 2008 at 2:17 AM
Quote: Originally posted by Theory of Everything
I can see the point of having on dedicated to the black Confederate soldiers. A lot of people forget that there were blacks fighting for the South. They're overshadowed by the larger idea that South was trying to make. I mean, when I learned about the Civil War back in middle school, there was no mention about any blacks in the Confederate Army. They didn't even imply it.


They legalized black soldier... -ship in the confederacy like two months before Appomattox after lots of heavy debate. (The point was raised that it kind of went against exactly what they were fighting for.) It didn't have that much of an impact.



I don't see why anyone would want to fly a confederate flag anywhere. California was only admitted to the US 10 years before the Civil War, but you don't see us flying mexican flags all the time.

We're American now.
Lab Assistant
#28 Old 3rd Jun 2008 at 3:38 AM
Quote: Originally posted by lockshockbarrel
They legalized black soldier... -ship in the confederacy like two months before Appomattox after lots of heavy debate. (The point was raised that it kind of went against exactly what they were fighting for.) It didn't have that much of an impact.






That's pretty disrespectful. Somebody should've told those black soldiers their involvement wouldn't have much of an impact before they died/got injured/or even wasted their precious time.
Theorist
#29 Old 3rd Jun 2008 at 4:19 AM
How would they have known what their impact would or would not have been at the time? Any evidence of impact would be in hindsight...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obama on ABC's This Week, discussing Obamacare
What it's saying is, is that we're not going to have other people carrying your burdens for you anymore
umm...Isn't having other people carry your medical burden exactly what national health care is?
Lab Assistant
#30 Old 3rd Jun 2008 at 5:41 AM
Quote: Originally posted by davious
How would they have known what their impact would or would not have been at the time? Any evidence of impact would be in hindsight...


So what. Neither did the white confederate soliders who died in battle know what their impact would be. Did they know going into battle that they were on the losing side? But they're still being honored, aren't they? If you're gonna honor the bravery of the South, then honor the second class citizens who helped. And if flying the Confederate flag is truly in honor of those soldiers, then fly one flag for them all. Not just the Confederate flag for the white ones.
#31 Old 3rd Jun 2008 at 8:07 AM
I don't care what kind of flag it is or what it stands for. Its protected by the first amendment. As long as it isn't government sponsored, I say good for them for voicing their opinions... or commemorating the dead or whatever it is they are trying to do.
#32 Old 3rd Jun 2008 at 12:43 PM
Given the way they're doing it, I'm not entirely sure that they -are- just trying to commemorate the dead. It wasn't enough to fly a standard size flag in their front lawns or in front of their museum, or even in the same spot, but just smaller. They had to go for the jumbo extra large edition, now with new night lights. I think they want attention. They have a different message they want to get across, and I think it's nasty that they're hiding behind the guise of "honoring fallen soldiers," especially given the climate in America today with regards to soldiers loosing their lives.
#33 Old 3rd Jun 2008 at 1:46 PM
Well, they still have the right to do it. Unfortunately there is no law against being an idiot.
Alchemist
#34 Old 3rd Jun 2008 at 2:02 PM
Quote: Originally posted by chynableu
They should be allowed to fly their flag...it just lets me know not to ever visit Hillsborough County!


This I agree with. As a black American that flag sickens me, however it's their town and if they want to fly that disgusting piece of crap it's their right

Quote: Originally posted by Blake
The whole Civil War wasn't fought for Slaves, because the slaves were dying out as it is.


I wish you southerners would stop piping that BS. That war was over the right of the southern states to keep their free labor supply period!!!!!!!. If you take slavery out of the equation there's no war.
Scholar
#35 Old 3rd Jun 2008 at 7:20 PM
It's an interesting debate--a very uniquely American circumstance, it looks like.

For example, displaying any of the flags of the Third Reich is thoroughly illegal in Germany, outside a historic or educational context (or permitting exceptions by the government, like for the filming of Valkyrie).

By contrast, the various flags of the Soviet Union are still common throughout the CIS. In fact, the USSR's flag is often interpretted as a sign of a patriotic, pan-national identity (in some countries--Russia, Kazahkstan, Belorussia--while in other countries, like the Ukraine, it's not nearly as popular). It's even used in a capacity by the governments of the CIS (Russia, Belorussia) for military functions honoring the dead of Second World War.

The problem with the flag of the Confederacy is that its origins were so long ago, and that it's survived as a symbol for ideas after the war--the segregationist state legislatures throughout the South, the Ku Klux Klan. They've "hijacked" the symbol, I suppose you could say. When looking at the flag, a lot of people don't see a secessionist government, so much as they see an ideological movement that had, at its central point, the notion of state-enforced inequality based on race.

It's a tough problem. Personally, I don't think they should do it, but it IS covered as part of their rights of expression, I think. Still, that right isn't unlimited--see, "Yelling fire in a crowded theater". While I don't think it's going to be the case, if this somehow results in violence...

"We're on sob day two of Operation Weeping-Bald-Eagle-Liberty-Never-Forget-Freedom-Watch sniff no word yet sob on our missing patriot Glenn Beck sob as alleged-President Hussein Obama shows his explicit support sniff for his fellow communists by ruling out the nuclear option."
#36 Old 4th Jun 2008 at 3:41 AM
Quote: Originally posted by chynableu
That's pretty disrespectful. Somebody should've told those black soldiers their involvement wouldn't have much of an impact before they died/got injured/or even wasted their precious time.



My apologies for being disrespectful if you feel I was.

I guess I was trying to explain why they weren't mentioned in every textbook, and to head off any assumptions people might make, like that the Confederacy were necessarily always supportive of giving blacks certain rights, like the right to fight in the army. It's different if you say that they always let their slaves fight in the army, as opposed to they only begrudgingly let them fight after five years of war and fierce debate.
Lab Assistant
#37 Old 4th Jun 2008 at 4:00 AM
Quote: Originally posted by lockshockbarrel
My apologies for being disrespectful if you feel I was.



Thanks! My apologies for assuming you meant disrespect. Should've given you a chance to explain.
Lab Assistant
#38 Old 4th Jun 2008 at 6:30 AM
EeeeK! Sensitive topic. *Deletes all the information that people don't consider when they speak against the South.*
Props to Blake, who has some knowledge.
Boo to Blake for associating a Southern accent and a low income with being an ignorant redneck. Stereotypes are a big part of the racist issue, you know.

*Sorry about your mom. I lost my dad this past October.*

As for the flag topic, personally I have no problem moving on and accepting it for what it is. However, I'm not black and couldn't tell if it would/should really offend them enough to take it down. If I could make it a non-issue, I would, but I would usually choose to avoid offending other races. I hope it doesn't make their black population uncomfortable. That's my only problem with it.

Oh, for those who don't live in the South:
Not everyone is racist.
You almost never hear of incest, and would be shunned for it.
Pickup trucks (or any other vehicle) displaying the Confederate flag are a small percentage. Most of those are displaying it as a showing of Southern pride.
Having an accent and using bad grammar do not indicate that you are ignorant. It's called a dialect. If you are so well educated, then you should know this.
White people are not the only ones who are racist. It goes both ways.

"They can jump, and land, and have no natural predators. Unless, of course, you count me!" *SH-BOOF!* - The Maxx
#39 Old 4th Jun 2008 at 10:21 AM
And the confederate flag in quesion (at least I am assuming) is the confederate battle flag. The regular confederate flag is actually pretty stupid looking. Its the comfederate emblam we all know stuck up in one corner, the rest of its plain white. It looks like someone did a bad job of scanning it or something.

I am not exactly sure what the difference between the two actually is. I will never understand the need to celebrate or commemorate anything about long dead soldiers. But I am not a very sentimental person.

I just always thought the whole southern pride thing was a bit strange.
Forum Resident
Original Poster
#40 Old 4th Jun 2008 at 1:11 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Eva Aisling
Oh, for those who don't live in the South:
Not everyone is racist.
You almost never hear of incest, and would be shunned for it.
Pickup trucks (or any other vehicle) displaying the Confederate flag are a small percentage. Most of those are displaying it as a showing of Southern pride.
Having an accent and using bad grammar do not indicate that you are ignorant. It's called a dialect. If you are so well educated, then you should know this.
White people are not the only ones who are racist. It goes both ways.

Bold #1. WTH does that have to do with any thing?

Bold #2. Head on the nail. Yes, racism absolutely goes both ways. We are even seeing it in the news today.

Erasing One Big Astounding Mistake All-around
#41 Old 4th Jun 2008 at 2:18 PM
I totally agree with Nick's bolded point #2, and it's something that a lot of people don't consider. I've heard it explained "well, they've done it for us for too long. It's time they got a taste of their medicine." If you ask me, that's very hypocritical, and you loose your right to complain. Many of these people would also tell their children that two wrongs don't make a right, and you have to give respect to get it. That doesn't add up there.

(as an aside: lol, I guess you're not an Obama supporter, huh, Nick?)
#42 Old 4th Jun 2008 at 2:59 PM
I am a firm believer that EVERYONE is a bigot in some way or another. We all hold prejudiced ideas, whether we distrust people of other races, find the opposite sex to be inferior in some way, are unaccepting of peoples sexual preference, religious belief, economic status, or age. Its really all the same thing, but as human beings, we just can't seem to get past the irrational fear of other human beings who are different from us and/or challenge our personal beliefs.
Top Secret Researcher
#43 Old 4th Jun 2008 at 3:05 PM
Are we just stating that racism goes both ways, or are we using that as an excuse not to care that a flag we fly is enormously offensive to a group of people? The Confederate flag should not be flown. There are plenty of ways to show your southern pride without it. However, it shouldn't be banned either, as everyone else has said.

Lab Assistant
#44 Old 4th Jun 2008 at 4:15 PM
Quote: Originally posted by kennyinbmore
I wish you southerners would stop piping that BS. That war was over the right of the southern states to keep their free labor supply period!!!!!!!. If you take slavery out of the equation there's no war.


I'm sorry if it offends you, but that is incorrect.

Our economy was highly dependent on slave labor. It's wrong, but that's the way it was. The only reason the North let go of slaves so easily is because they had little to no use for slavery. Slaves were mostly just servants in the
Northern states. There weren't many slaves there, so we also had to worry about mass violence breaking out, because of all the angry slaves, while they did not. Everyone was ignorant back then, not just the South. However, if it were just about slaves (or even mainly about slaves), it never would've happened. Come on, look at how long we were in a Depression because of that war. That war was far worse than just letting go of the slaves, and our leaders would've known that. We had all seen war before, and knew of the damage it caused.
The North and the South had many differences of opinion. You can hate all you want, but at least do so for the right reasons. The truth is that every race has done things that were horrible at some point. The Africans enslaved their own people, and traded them for goods with many countries. That's how the slave trade started. Don't believe me? Look it up.

Quote: Originally posted by Daisie
Are we just stating that racism goes both ways, or are we using that as an excuse not to care that a flag we fly is enormously offensive to a group of people? The Confederate flag should not be flown. There are plenty of ways to show your southern pride without it. However, it shouldn't be banned either, as everyone else has said.


I was just stating that it goes both ways, because it's a common misconception that it's only the whites that are racist in the South. I'm not into the whole "Southern pride" thing. It just annoys me when people place false blame on other people/races. I have already stated that I would choose not to fly the flag, if it offends the black population.

Just out of curiousity, does anyone know if it's still necessary to say "African-American"? I live around a lot of black people, and they don't seem to care. Then again, I never really have the need to refer to them by their skin color, so I don't know. I'm sorry if that term has offended anyone. I'm not racist, I think we're all corrupt, equally. :mob

Quote: Originally posted by urisStar
“White people are not the only ones who are racist. It goes both ways.”

That statement is so disingenuous in so many ways! You can’t for centuries deny a people of their rights to “be”, by terrorizing them, by burning crosses, lynching, denying them the opportunity to participate in an equal right to share in the wealth of this country and all the negative and ungodly behavior(s) that have been so prevalent as a culture of this country and expect the people that you have harm to have good feelings towards you.


In case you thought I was defending the flag with that statement, I was not. I was only stating a few common misconceptions of the South. I can't imagine the hurt that the black people must feel in this country. I would never discredit that.
You have a good point, but all the slavery was not in this country and was also not all by white people. If you choose to hate everyone, then the world will be getting nowhere. It will only exacerbate the problem. Hate just feuls more hate. It will take all races to forgive and accept one another, if we are ever to attain any kind of peace at all.

I'm pretty sure it will never happen, though. Even without racism, we have religion to hate over.

I think I'm going to step out of this one. I'm not very good at debate, and never seem to state things so that everyone understands what I meant. For anyone who thinks that I mean to discredit the reason for racism, or to downplay the severity of the events that took place in America when it comes to racism, you couldn't be more wrong. I get angry just thinking about all the rights women were denied, and how they were often treated with no one to defend them. I'm just tired of white people of America taking all the blame, when it was other races and countries too. And it hurts our country, and all of our races, that this hate still remains. If more people knew all of the facts, then maybe it would be easier to get past it.

"They can jump, and land, and have no natural predators. Unless, of course, you count me!" *SH-BOOF!* - The Maxx
Inventor
#45 Old 4th Jun 2008 at 4:42 PM
“White people are not the only ones who are racist. It goes both ways.”

That statement is so disingenuous in so many ways! You can’t for centuries deny a people of their rights to “be”, by terrorizing them, by burning crosses, lynching, denying them the opportunity to participate in an equal right to share in the wealth of this country and all the negative and ungodly behavior(s) that have been so prevalent as a culture of this country and expect the people that you have harm to have good feelings towards you.

Those (ungodly) behaviors do not/did not promote harmony and brotherhood nor do they offer up an equal right for life/well being for those that have been harmed, to see this country in the same light. That speaks to elites, entitlement, superiority, views that say, I can treat you like animals but I expect you to love me in return. I find that to be chaotic/lawless, radical and an unreasonable expectation.

If in fact those/that expectation wants to be legitimized, then by all means America shouldn’t call any nation or people an enemy!

If you lack respect for others, why demand it from others for yourself?:werd:
Forum Resident
Original Poster
#46 Old 4th Jun 2008 at 5:34 PM
Quote: Originally posted by urisStar
“White people are not the only ones who are racist. It goes both ways.”

That statement is so disingenuous in so many ways! You can’t for centuries deny a people of their rights to “be”, by terrorizing them, by burning crosses, lynching, denying them the opportunity to participate in an equal right to share in the wealth of this country and all the negative and ungodly behavior(s) that have been so prevalent as a culture of this country and expect the people that you have harm to have good feelings towards you.

Those (ungodly) behaviors do not/did not promote harmony and brotherhood nor do they offer up an equal right for life/well being for those that have been harmed, to see this country in the same light. That speaks to elites, entitlement, superiority, views that say, I can treat you like animals but I expect you to love me in return. I find that to be chaotic/lawless, radical and an unreasonable expectation.

If in fact those/that expectation wants to be legitimized, then by all means America shouldn’t call any nation or people an enemy!

If you lack respect for others, why demand it from others for yourself?:werd:

Excellent question there! If you have no respect for others, then why demand it?

You talk about how others must respect people of color, but time and again in this forum, I have seen you adimately defend racist comments and views being perpetrated upon white people and justifying them as, "Well it was done on us." or my favorite, "He had a good point there." ignoring the fact that what was said was said in a racist manor. Just as you have done right there in that post.

Racism should not under any circumstance be accepted from any one for any reason. Not even under the, "Well it is justifiable because others did it first." It is never justifiable!

Erasing One Big Astounding Mistake All-around
Inventor
#47 Old 4th Jun 2008 at 5:50 PM
Hey Amish Nick, Racism doesn’t need to be justified, “it is”, and all the pretending in the world is not going to change that reality. It would be nice to move on if only this country wanted that to happen.

The good news is, it is all up to the individual. The reality is, you reap what you sow, and all the pretending in the world will that change that fact.

I am as you say, because I am a quick learner and duck when I need too and push back when I must, so I can live to fight another day.:howdy:
Theorist
#48 Old 4th Jun 2008 at 5:53 PM
Not to mention she automatically assumes all white people are racist, rather than a relatively small number. It would be like me saying all black people hate white people based on the actions and words of a few pastors at certain Black Liberation Theology churches....ahem. My ancestors on both sides emigrated from the Netherlands well after the Civil War. I have absolutely no guilt about being white. My ancestors never owned slaves, never wore a white hood, never lynched anyone, and I will be damned if I am gonna take the blame for something my ancestors never did. Yet, because I am a white christian male, certain people automatically assume it is my life's goal to keep minorities down. How is that kind of generalization not racist?

And UrisStar, we finally agree on something. It is up to the individual. Not just the white individual. Racism crosses the lines of ethnicity. I would ask though, how do you expect the country to move on from it, to get past it, when people keep it front page news? How can we get past it when certain pastors preach on a weekly basis how evil white America is? You want America to move on? Fine. Do your part. Don't defend those that seek to continue driving the wedge between cultures. Don't defend individuals who seek to keep the divide wide open. Don't support people who publicly speak about the evils of racism, and yet, when they have a congregation full of people, and the TV cameras aren't on, give messages of hatred towards particular ethnic groups. Its one thing to continually criticize white racism against blacks, but if you don't also criticize black racism against whites, how is anything supposed to get accomplished? When you practice an eye for an eye, all you get are multiple blind people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obama on ABC's This Week, discussing Obamacare
What it's saying is, is that we're not going to have other people carrying your burdens for you anymore
umm...Isn't having other people carry your medical burden exactly what national health care is?
Inventor
#49 Old 4th Jun 2008 at 5:58 PM
davious, I never said all of anything! Who the cap fit, let them wear it. Just know, who feels it knows it.:D
Theorist
#50 Old 4th Jun 2008 at 6:02 PM
do those caps fit anyone other than white males?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obama on ABC's This Week, discussing Obamacare
What it's saying is, is that we're not going to have other people carrying your burdens for you anymore
umm...Isn't having other people carry your medical burden exactly what national health care is?
 
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