Its generalizing to call out a country for deliberately deceiving people? There is no witchhunt here. That China faked aspects of the Opening Ceremonies is not in question, it is fact. It is also fact that China has a history of trying to cheat at the Olympic games. It is also fact that numerous sources within China itself have previously given birthdates for these gymnasts that does not agree with their passport, ages that would have made them ineligible to compete.

Did I watch the Opening Ceremonies? Yes.
Am I actively watching the games? Yes.
Am I concerned with maintaining the integrity of the Olympics? Yes.
Will I come down hard on China if the facts prove that they falsified the ages of these gymnasts, thus lowering the integrity of the Olympics? Yes.

China has shown it is more concerned with the appearance of propriety than it is with propriety itself. Jhd1189 had it exactly right.



If the Chinese are cheating, they deserve to be caught, and they deserve to be punished for it. If they are not cheating, they have to address and satisfactorily explain the discrepancies regarding the various birth dates being listed for some of its athletes.

Luciano Pavarotti lipsyncing in performances is quite a different situation. It is HIS voice being lipsynced. It is still all him. If Pavarotti were lipsyncing to someone else's voice, it would be just as deplorable as what the Chinese did. If the girl had been lipsyncing to her own voice, such as might be the case if she developed a cold or something, and still had to perform, that would be entirely excusable. Lipsyncing to someone else's voice is not excusable.

Just to clarify, ALL references regarding China or Chinese refer to the government, not to each individual citizen.

And people from various nations have done, it doesn't change the fact that for the purpose of this thread, we are looking at the Chinese, and note that I use that word as a short-hand designation, and the antics that country has done during this current Olympics.

And anyone who really believes I was refering to every chinese human being on this planet, I've got the Golden Gate Bridge I want to sell off to make space in my garage.

The difference is that this time they used fakes and false CGI effects to promote themselves, rather than doing their utmost to physically stage a great opening. What sort of light does that place on a nation?

It's ironic, as the whole point to the Olympics is the celebrate the achievements that the athletes manage to make using nothing more than their own skill and determination, to the best of their ability, with no fakery involved.

We do know that at least one of those performers faked their performance though, don't we?

So, rules don't matter, then? Cheaters shouldn't be punished if they happen to do well? Nobody said their athleticism was being faked...but there is a high likelihood that their eligibility was. If they were ineligible because of their age, then the Chinese government faked their documentation. If the Chinese government faked their documentation, they deliberately broke the rules in order to try to win. If a 17 year old got caught playing for the winning team of the Little League World Series, would you also argue that the team, knowing they had a player that was ineligible, should be able to keep their title? If the girls are underage, they should not have been allowed to compete, and their scores shouldn't count. Its pretty clear cut. You don't reward cheaters by letting them keep their medals.

I think SimsArtThat is under the impression that thousands of people die per major firework display. I think I'm just going to back away from this argument for a bit, I really don't understand your reasoning, especially when you consider fireworks displays should be one of China's specialties, and I find the way that you believe me and davious are saying every chinese person are cheaters and liars, despite explaining that we are not doing that repeatedly, more than a little insulting.

So are we assuming that *the government* faked the documents necessary? Is it not possible that the individuals got these on their own accord and rather then it being the a nation cheating?

And on the faking side... did they ever say the fireworks were real? Because if not they aren't really liars :] You didn't have to think that the fireworks were real in the first place. Also a lot of effort went into making that CGI for the fireworks, why not applaud that rather then declare it deceitful or anything else you would like to say.

SimsArtThat, you seem to be under the impression that accusing the Chinese government of cheating (which, they do) is the equivalent of saying everything about the Olympics is fake. Where did I say the entire Opening Ceremony was fake, so in answer to your question, NO, that is not what I just said. You are under the impression that we are blaming the entire nation of China, when both myself and SilentPsycho SPECIFICALLY MENTIONED that all references were regarding the government of China, not its people.

They are related. Both are falsehoods designed to make something appear to be better than it actually is. In the case of the Opening Ceremonies, they attempted to deceive the world by making the girl singing appear better, by using an entirely different girl, and they attempted to deceive the world with the fireworks, by misrepresenting what was actually being lit. With the athletes, it (allegedly, again, unproven, just very likely) is an attempt to deceive the world by using ineligible athletes to gain an unfair advantage in sport competitions.

All of those situations center on one theme. Deception to make your nation appear better than it actually is.



Considering the government sponsors the gymnasts, and provides the documents to the IOC, yes. If the gymnasts passports are falsified, it would have been the government doing it. The gymnasts birth dates would already be on record with the Chinese government, so if the gymnasts were attempting to fake it themselves, it would have been caught by Chinese officials. You have to remember, Chinese sports do not operate the same way they do in America. It is all state sponsored. Everything is controlled by the Chinese government. That is why it was such a pain in the ass for Yao Ming to leave China to come play basketball in the NBA. The Chinese government would have known all along how old the gymnasts were. If the documents are fake, the Chinese government, as the issuing body, would have had to have been in on it, as they would have the information available to fact-check their birth dates.

Nobody is saying the fake fireworks were poorly done, just that faking the fireworks is deceptive. You can admire a con artist for a great con, and still acknowledge the fact that it was a con.

The main reason I heard that was given for the fireworks being computer generated was that the weather was not too good, too much cloud. I think that for the 2012 Olympics we'd better hurry up and create A LOT of computer images, because we never seem to get a single day when it's not raining! But I'm not commenting on the probability of finding an attractive Brit who can sing as well...

how was it not a deliberate deceit? They presented her as if the girl seen on television was singing the song. She wasn't, and they knew that she wasn't the singer. They intentionally kept the singer off of television, yet presented the other girl to the world as the singer. It may not be the equivalent of election fraud or something like that, but, exactly how does it not count as deliberate, when they knew it wasn't her, and how was it not deceitful, when it wasn't her? How is pointing out that something isn't as it appears to be xenophobic?

Okay let's calm the heck down now - you are welcome to argue your point, but do it gracefully and calmly or don't do it at all. Everybody have a nice big chill pill. Being calm, eloquent, and dignified about presenting your views will always be more likely to change minds than being confrontational about it.

Okay, being awfully defensive there, aren't you? Your arguments are bordering on ridiculousness. Hypnotize? Who the hell said anything about being hypnotized? My MO is to call it like I see it...when I see an attempt at deception, I will call it an attempt at deception. This was a clear cut by the very definition of the word attempt at deception. I didn't say it was a particularly harmful deception, didn't say it was dastardly to have a little girl lipsync, but, deception is deception. To paraphrase Shakespeare, a lie by any other name is still a lie. So, you can get all in a tizzy, and pretend that the entire world is engaging on a smear campaign against China for breaking the news that China isn't everything they want us to believe it is, you can go on accusing everyone who dares to criticize China for anything as being xenophobic, you can go ahead and do that, if you want. You can even continue to post in that ridiculous mocking tone...Doesn't change the fact that China tried to pull a fast one on the world.

*sighs* SimsArtThat, davious, please do not post on this thread for at least 5 hours from now. My timestamp on davious's last post is 8:21 PM - thus I don't want to see any posts from either of you on this thread until at least 1:21 AM - adjust for your local time as needed.

And when/if you do, please be nice to each other and argue your point, or don't post at all. I'm fine with people disagreeing, but keep a polite tone and argue your POINT, don't argue about someone else, or you won't be welcome to post in this thread again.

I jsut want to point out that there were fireowrks at the opening ceremony... the footprint fireworks we saw and the very impressive (but not as impressive as what we saw) ones at the stadium itself were different yes, but both were there.

And fireworks are perfectly safe, I helped at one in Baltimore, and the only danger is falling shells, which only rarely fall more than a few hundred yards from the mortar. Hence why the crowds are kept a half mile away. Very safe, fireworks are.

As to lip synching... in the grand scheme of things, does it really matter? The two little girls involved both say its alright with them, the show was excellent, and China is a collectivistic culture. We individualistic westerners can't get it through our heads that the one (the entire show) is more important than the many (the individual performers).

The falsified papers I say they should be punished for. If I couldn't get onto the high school track team when I was 12, then some Chinese girl shouldn't get onto the Olympic gymnastics team when she's 14.

What integrity? The Olympics has no integrity it lost it just like the UN when it became a tool to be used by the Americans/Russians and now the Chinese to further their own intrests.

Personaly I don't care if the fireworks were fake. The fireworks weren't as impressive as many of the other genuine performances anyways. People watch the opening ceremony to be entertained, not to sit there and judge a country.

As for the singing, while I do feel that the original singer should've been on stage FurryPanda makes a good point with the fact that how Chinese society is more based on the good of the community while many western societies focus on the good of the individual, thus creating a difference in the way we perceieve situations. My only thing is that as long as those two girls, especially the original singer, are happy with how things turned out then I'm fine with it.

Concerning the gymnasts, though they do look very young, I can think of two explianations. One, from what I've heard the training a gymnast goes through does affect their growth and how soon they reach puberty. Two, and this is just from personal observation, the Chinese tend to look much younger than their age. Though there is a possibilty that they might be cheating. If it's the case then I think they should have their medals taken away.

Just found this thread after seeing the news. Why? She's not that ugly. And really, lip syncing? That girl must be embarrassed now that the word's out.

Granted, China wanted to make the Olympics glittery and splendid, but I don't think that some dirty tricks would make it any better.

who cares if the gymnast is below the iligible age, THEY PAWN YOUR ASS lol get beaten by underage people HAHAHAHA

lets make this legal, since you wanted to say they cheated, on what part? that they are capable of being better then gymnast older then they are? come another 2 year she still beat you.

regarding the lipsync and CG during the opening ceremonies thats is also not cheating its called making the best performance possible. If using real fire works can achieve the best performance, I am sure the Chinese will do it even if it means the nearby house are in danger of getting burn down.


runs away :P

Yes I agree about Chinese look much younger than their real age. You can do some research if you want, it is indeed true.

Nixie, the reason that the Olympics has a minimum age requirement for women's gymnastics is because younger girls have an unfair competitive advantage. Girls that haven't yet entered into puberty are at a significant advantage, because they tend to be smaller (even when compared to the other Chinese girls, He Kexin was significantly shorter) what this does is mask flaws in their routine that would be noticeable in an older girl. They don't have the balance issues a real 16 year old girl would have, because they don't have to worry about breast development throwing off their balance at all. Its about kinesiology. Yes, the Chinese beat the Americans...but the Americans were playing by the rules, the Chinese team wasn't. The rules state you must be 16 to compete. If these girls aren't 16, they weren't eligible to compete, and their performances are meaningless. If this were just a case of them looking young, it would be no big deal. However, when there are official Chinese sources that list their birth dates as one date, and their passports list it as another, it certainly gives cause for concern over the legitimacy of it. When in 2007, He Kexin's birthday is 1/1/94, and magically in 2008 it is 1/1/92 on the passports, when the host country that issues those passports has a direct benefit in those passports being faked, its suspicious, plain and simple.

that was retarded, the girl was cute, not as cute as the other girl but not ugly at all.

p.s. Michael Phelps is a beastt<3

The lip-syncing, while sad, it's become somewhat expected in big live events...my how we forget Janet Jackson back in 04 at the Super Bowl, or maybe that was just overshadowed because of her wardrobe malfunction? Oh and though it's been mentioned many a time before, I don't know, maybe most of you are too young to remember, but Milli Vanilli...they pretty much perfected the art.

As for the fireworks...seriously, what's the big deal? So they were fake, or partially fake as some have said. Honestly, I've no clue. But seriously, think of this from a global standpoint. Beijing is a notoriously dirty city with questionable air quality. Fireworks generate a lot of smoke, gases, etc. Yay for going 'green' anyone?

And lastly, as for the gymnasts and their ages: I'm not commenting on the fact that they could possibly be under the legal age to compete, but as to looking their ages. Gymnasts, specifically females are completely underdeveloped for their ages as they tend to not hit puberty until after their competitive careers have ended. This is because of their rigorous training.

Take a look back at the 96 Olympics and at Dominique Moceanu in particular. Granted she was only 14 at the Atlanta Games (legal because the age requirement didn't come into effect until 98) but IMO she looked like she was about 9 years old. And really, go to youtube and look up some of the interviews with Kerri Strug...She was 18 at the Atlanta games but sounds very much like a child because she hadn't yet hit puberty.

I agree. She's just a kid, after all.

And yes. Yes, he sure freaking is. :D

In my opinion, having a 'prettier' kid lip sync to the voice of another girl who wasn't allowed to sing live just because she was 'ugly' is abit far-fetched. Come on, guys! She's just a kid. That's abit cruel. They shouldn't have to replace a young girl just because of her looks. I reckon that's pretty terrible.

But I think the firework-faking was alright. I mean, it's pretty cheap But if the faking was for safety reasons, then it's fine, right? I mean, we don't want any olympians on fire or anything :P

I can't tell whether you're being sarcastic or not, but being younger is an unfair advantage in a sport like gymnastics.

if you want to use that as an excuse, then please answer me this: all these years athletes who have advantages of height and body mass over the Chinese/Asian/Smaller size population that have won the Olympic should be disqualify?

In sports [excerpt from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_height ]

Height often plays a crucial role in sports. For most sports, height is useful as it affects the leverage between muscle volume and bones towards greater speed of movement. It is most valuable in sports like basketball and volleyball, where the "short" players are almost always well above average in height compared to the general population. In men's professional basketball, the guards, the smallest players, are usually around 6'0" to 6'6" (1.83 to 1.98 m), and the centers, the tallest players, are generally from 6'10" to 7'2" (2.08 to 2.18 m). In some sports, such as horse racing, auto racing, figure skating, diving, and gymnastics, a smaller frame is more valuable. In other sports, the role of height is specific to particular positions (i.e . In American Football, running backs have an advantage if they are shorter than the defenders due to lower centers of gravity and decreased visibility.) In Rugby Union height is vital for key positions such as Second Row who catch the ball while being hoisted up in lineouts. In weightlifting shorter levers are advantageous and taller than average competitors usually compete in the 105 kg + group. In amateur wrestling shorter competitors weigh less thus having the advantage of being able to compete at lower weight classes.

[edit] Association football (soccer)

In association football, tall goalkeepers have an advantage because they have greater armspans and can jump higher easily, so one will rarely, if ever, see a short goalkeeper at the professional level. However, shorter goalkeepers will have an easier time reaching low shots as they can reach the ground fractionally sooner than taller keepers. In wide positions and certain attacking ones, height is not always important, with some of the best players in the world (e.g. Garrincha, Edgar Davids, Romário and Maradona) being shorter than average and in many cases gaining an advantage with their low center of gravity. However, height is generally considered advantageous for central defenders and for target men forwards who usually aim to score with their head for instance Jan Koller, Ruud van Nistelrooy, Niall Quinn, Zlatan Ibrahimovic, Luca Toni and Peter Crouch.

[edit] Cricket

Similarly, in cricket, some great batsmen like Donald Bradman 5 ft 7 in (1.7 m), Sachin Tendulkar 5 ft 5 in (1.7 m), Brian Lara 5 ft 6 in (1.7 m), Sunil Gavaskar 5 ft 4 in (1.6 m) and Aravinda De Silva 5 ft 2 in (1.6 m) are/were short. On the other hand, many successful fast bowlers are/were well over 6 ft (1.8 m); for example past greats Joel Garner, Courtney Walsh, and Curtly Ambrose were all 6'6" (198 cm) or taller. The current generation of fast bowlers are even taller an example being England's 21 year old fast bowler Stuart Broad being 6 ft 8|in tall. Glenn McGrath is also 6'5½" (197 cm). In general, taller bowlers have a higher point of release in their bowling action, making it easier for them to make the ball rear-up from a length. Also, they can generate more pace with longer arms and the sling action associated with bowling. But, taller batsmen also have greater ease of hitting the ball compared to short-heighted. Some greats like Clive Lloyd are above 6 ft (1.8 m). England's star batsman Kevin Pietersen is 6 ft 4 in (1.9 m) tall, while New Zealand all-rounder Jacob Oram measures 6 ft 7 in (2.0 m).

[edit] Rowing

In rowing, being tall is a big advantage, because the taller you are the longer your stroke can potentially be, thus moving the boat more effectively. The average male Olympic rower is 6'3.5", and the average female Olympic rower is 5'8",[80] well over the average height.

[edit] Rugby union

In rugby union, lineout jumpers, generally locks, are usually the tallest players on the pitch, as this increases their chance of winning clean ball, whereas scrum-halves are usually relatively short. As examples, current world-class locks Victor Matfield, Chris Jack, and Paul O'Connell are all at least 6'6"/1.98 m, and Simon Shaw even gets up to roughly 6'9", while the sport's all-time leader in international appearances, scrum-half George Gregan, is 5'8"/1.73m. Currently the tallest professional players are Devin Toner and Andries Bekker, who are both 6'10". The tallest man ever to have played was 7'0" tall Richard Metcalfe.

[edit] Rugby league

Unlike rugby union, height is not generally seen as important, often extreme height being a hindrance rather than a useful attribute.[81][82] Second-row forwards are generally not as tall as their rugby union counterparts due to the absence of line-outs. However, recent tactics of cross-field kicking have resulted in the success of taller outside backs. Israel Folau (196cm), Greg Inglis (195cm), Shaun Kenny-Dowall (195cm), Mark Gasnier (194cm), Colin Best (189cm), Manu Vatuvei (189cm), Jarryd Hayne (188cm), Krisnan Inu (185cm) and Jason Nightingale (185cm) are examples of the trend in taller wingers and centres, and are both known for their remarkable jumping skills in defense or attack.

[edit] American football (gridiron)

In American Football, a tall quarterback is at an advantage because it is easier for him to see over the heads of large offensive and defensive linemen while he is in the pocket in a passing situation. At 5'9", Doug Flutie was initially considered to be too short to become a NFL quarterback despite his Heisman Trophy-winning success at the college level.

Tall wide receivers have an advantage of being able to outjump shorter defensive backs to catch highly thrown passes. By contrast, shorter defensive backs are utilized because of their typically greater agility, as the ability to change directions instantly is a prerequisite for the position. Short running backs are at an advantage because their shorter stature and lower center of gravity generally makes them harder to tackle effectively. In addition, they can easily "hide" behind large offensive linemen, making it harder for defenders to react at the beginning of a play. Thus, in the NFL and in NCAA Division I football, running backs under 6 ft 0 in (1.83 m) are more common than running backs over 6 ft 3 in (1.91 m). Former Heisman Trophy winner and Pro Football Hall of Famer Barry Sanders, thought by some to be the greatest running back in history, is a classic example of a running back with an extraordinarily low center of gravity, as he stood only 5 ft 7 1/2 in (1.71 m). However, Jim Brown, another player often considered the greatest running back of all time, was more than 6 ft 2 in (1.88 m) tall, demonstrating benefits conferred by the greater power and leverage which height provides.

Kickers are generally short, they are shorter because this allows them to get under the ball easier. Punters are generally very tall because of longer legs achieving greater leg swing and this translates into more power on the ball.

[edit] Baseball

In baseball, pitchers tend to be taller than position players. Being taller means longer legs, which power pitchers use to generate velocity and a release point closer to the plate, which means the ball reaches the batter more quickly. While taller position players have a larger strike zone, most position players are at least of average height because the larger frame allows them to generate more power. Most successful modern pitchers are safely over 6 feet/1.83 m, some to extremes (e.g., the 6'10"/2.08 m Randy Johnson), with the 5'11"/1.80 m Pedro Martínez a notable exception.

[edit] Tennis

Height can be advantageous to a tennis player as it allows players to create more power when serving, and it gives tall players a greater wingspan, allowing them to get to sharp-angled shots more easily. Examples of tall players are 6'10" Ivo Karlovic, and 6'9" John Isner, both known for their powerful serves. Venus Williams, Lindsay Davenport, and Maria Sharapova are successful tall players on the women's side, all measuring 6'1" or taller. However, being tall can have some disadvantages, like the difficulty of bending down to reach low volleys. There have also have been some successful players that were short, like Rod Laver and Justine Henin.

[edit] Ice hockey

While the history of the NHL is filled with diminutive players who achieved greatness (Theo Fleury, Martin St. Louis) the game's physical style has put a premium on imposing players, particular over 6 feet tall and over 200 pounds (Mario Lemieux, Chris Pronger). Taller, bigger players have a longer reach, are able to give out and sustain punishing body checks, and are generally seen as indispensable for a team looking to go deep into the playoffs. Zdeno Chára, at 6 ft 9 in (2.06 m), is the tallest player ever to play in the NHL.

[edit] Amateur Wrestling

Height can be both helpful and detrimental in wrestling. Since taller people have more bone mass, they will generally be slightly weaker than shorter people in the same weight class. This difference is made up in part by their longer arms, which allow them a longer reach and cradle easier. Long legs are detrimental in that they can easily be attacked by a competitor, they do, however, assist in performing some actions and positions such as throwing (or riding) legs. The heights of amateur wrestlers vary greatly with successful athletes being as short as Alireza Dabir at 171cm and as tall as the great Alexander Karelin at roughly 193 cm.

[edit] Sumo

Professional sumo wrestlers are required to be at least 173 cm (5' 8") tall. Some aspiring sumo athletes have silicon implants added to the tops of their heads to reach the necessary height.[83] The average height for a sumo wrestler is 180 cm, far above the national average in Japan.


and you think these contestant have to worry about breast getting in their way?? http://www.sportsnet.ca/olympics/20...ukin_ap_260.jpg or these, and look at their average body size, i don't see any different at all. http://en.beijing2008.cn/news/sport...214149267.shtml