John McCain may be a maverick after all. . . Is it just me or has McCain been trying to throw this election all along? I know I am not all that knowledgeable on McCain, but from what I've come to know of him, he seems to be rebelling against the status quote, and it is frustrating him that no one is paying attention. John McCain is saying that Obama is the best man for the job and he is going to see to it that Obama become the next President of the USA. I sure would like to be a fly on McCain's wall (s).

Did Barack Obama really just advocate invading Pakistan? A tentative ally that also happens to have nuclear weapons? Did he seriously just tell a nuclear power that he wants to invade them? What the hell is he thinking? In fact, he advocated it more than once in tonight's debate. Yet, Pakistan is NOT our enemy.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080926.../as_pakistan_us

some highlights of the article:



and to which the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Admiral Mike Mullen said



and, then there is Pakistan's strategic importance:


So, he wants to invade a country that has helped us in the war on terror, that allows us to transport our troops, fuel and supplies to Afghanistan, and possesses nuclear weapons. Mr. Mullen sir, I can come up with a set of circumstances where there could be a sustained fight...All that has to happen is America electing Obama as President. He said it himself multiple times tonight that he wants to attack Pakistan.

Don't misconstrue his words.

Obama was simply criticizing the Bush administration's failed policy not only in Iraq, but that whole region. The U.S. continues to send aid to Pakistan, yet they are not fully meeting their obligations to stop the housing and facilitating of terrorists.

Do you really think it is logical to continue to aid a nation that is doing this? What the hell are you thinking?

He specifically stated that he wanted to send in more troops to both Afghanistan and Pakistan, and away from Iraq. He didn't simply criticize Pakistan. That is not just complaining about Pakistan not living up to its obligations, that is advocating the invasion a nominally friendly country that happens to have nuclear weapons, that also happens to be our conduit into Afghanistan.

Yes, I think it is logical to continue to send aid. If we do not, we lose a key ally in the Middle East and gain a nuclear powered enemy. Pakistan is an ally that while it hasn't perfected democracy, is trying a hell of a lot harder than some other countries. I am the hell thinking that we need all of the allies we can get in the Middle East, even if their history of democracy isn't quite as good as it could be. Having Pakistan as an ally is much better than having Pakistan as an enemy. They WANT to be friends with the United States, they have just stumbled. Further, I am going to generally be against invading countries that have nuclear warheads unless absolutely necessary.

CNN has a transcript of the debate up already, in which Obama states:



If he wasn't advocating invading Pakistan, what is his plan to "deal with these folks" there? He says that we have to deal with them specifically in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Okay, if he isn't threatening to send troops there, how exactly is he planning on dealing with Al Qaeda in Pakistan? Non-conditional meetings?



Again...dealing with Pakistan? If he isn't meaning troops, what does he mean? Sorry, it seems quite plain to me.



Only in Obamaspeak, is saying we need to take them out NOT a threat. He contradicts himself in the span of 15 seconds. He wasn't asking Pakistan for a date...he was threatening them. If you have an alternative meaning for "take them out" that fits the context, please share it...because the way he said it at the debate is nothing but a veiled threat.

I didn't misconstrue his words at all.

I think if we can finally nail Osama bin Laden, NOBODY cares whether Pakistan is still an ally or not.

Just for the record, it is the policy of the United States, apparently, to invade Pakistan, just as it is their policy, apparently, to try to shoot down our helicopters. As allies go, they suck. As protectors of Bin Laden, (based on the results) they excel.

How easily we forget what all this "War on Terror" business was about, eh?

Watched the debate tonight. This election is pretty much over. We should get better poll numbers for who won the debate in the coming days, but the CNN flash poll indicates it was overwhelmingly for Obama.

The best part of the debate, though, for me, was when McCain said if he becomes president, America will never again torture prisoners. He used the words "torture" and "again." If he would also promise to put Bush, Cheney, Rice, and Gonzales on trial for crimes against humanity, I would switch and vote for him.

I wonder how the evangelicals can vote for a Republican who is against torture.

Weren't a lot of prominent people swearing it had never happened at all?

And yeah, we shouldn't have to buy allies. We don't pay the NATO nations to be our allies. We need to 'aid' our own country for awhile. Plus I still want an accounting for that 8.5 billion that wasn't accounted for when 'defense contractors' of every sort were lining up with wheelbarrows. This is where this 'aid' is going? I think not.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006...in1302378.shtml



Using a war as an excuse to lay out a money buffet is pathetic. This needs to be explained- and stopped.

davious I don't see 'dealing' with a country, as stating quite clearly that he will invade Pakistan. Pakistan is NOT a stable country (which is why it makes the nukes so much scarier)

Considering that America went to war in Iraq over 'terorists' that weren't even there its a bit late to cry foul. Or does America only invade countries that it can beat?

I think withholding aid from Pakistan until they allow American troops to enter the country to find bin Ladin is an obvious way of dealing with it. Money talks. I can see invading Pakistan as a last, last resort but once again, he never said that (which was quite clear from what you posted that he wasn't advocating that)

No one has mentioned McCAin's actual presence last night? his obvious distain for Obama, his rude bodylanguage and how he wouldn't even look him in the eye. Childish? the smartass comments and remarks, he seemed in a hurry, didn't want to be there, and his stupid little cackles? (reminded me of Bush) come on! can you get any more immature? this is serious crap..he just pissed me off and I was trying to listen to him! his whole attitude was rather, I'm too good for this young whippersnapper and I don't want to debate him. What a jerk. McCain showed he really is out of touch with Americans. I do feel that most people have made up their minds though about the election, the debates seem rather not important at this point in time.....next weeks will be more interesting and kinda funny.

I think you're blatantly wrong, madame. It shows that Obama doesn't care about this country because he wasn't in Washington. McCain didn't want to be there because he wanted to re-shape our failing economy, his presence in Washington was of the utmost importance! Just because he cares about our country doesn't mean you should patronize him for his extreme political importance!


...[/sarcasm]

I got that slapped in my face today, it makes no sense to me. <___>

Sorry Blake, I disagree...and please don't call me madam (lol)..i'm not that old....anyway...just my impression, thats all, and I am not the only one....alot of the news reporters etc.....have mentioned the same thing...please don't think that McCAin cares that much about the economy...he and his 7 homes and 13 cars....but like I said, thats the vibe he put off, he wouldn't even try to look Obama in the face, juvenial.

I'm for Obama/Biden mainly because Sarah Palin scares the crap out of me. She's a homophobic nutjob. I'm pretty sure that if McCain got elected he'd die in the office and Palin would take over. Ugh.

I'm all for Obama, I can't stand McCain. First off he's thinking of starting the draft again, killing even more American's than Bush. Second of all he's immature, comparing Obama to Brittany Spears and Paris Hilton is so lame man, Paris and Brittany are American citizens you know, who wants a president that looks down upon the people of America? Third of all, Palin is a messed up VP and he only chose her because she's a female so people can have more of a reason to vote for him, sexist old fart! Fourth of all he's in his 70's!! He'll croak over in a couple of months, so what's the point? I can't stand McCain and I don't feel comfortable with him being the president for this nation. He's immature and he doesn't know what being a president is all about. Obama seems more serious to me, he seems to actually WANT to help us. Wasn't he the one who urged hundreds of thousands of supporters to donate to the Red Cross to help victims of Hurricane Gustav. He seems seroius to me and he knows what he want, and that's what I like in a president. McCain is just going to be another Bush if not worse, and the only way he'll get into office is if people don't vote for Obama because of his ethnicity.

Here's a youtube of what Obama said last night after McCain boasted about being right about The Surge.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xG1aOORf8Pc

(Oh, oh, how I wish we could embed youtubes with BBcode here. It would make the whole site that much more fun.

Note to the site owners: You can easily download BBcode scripts to enable Youtube embedding, but the admin has to install it.

http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php?t=199304 )

McCain immature? Sorry but no. This is a presidential election. They are both shooting insults at each other like that, so if McCain is immature, then so is Obama. And Palin is definitley not messed up. Obama talks all this crap about her making her look bad.

And to the "He's immature and he doesn't know what being a president is all aboout", that's not true IMO. If anybody doesn't know, it's Obama. He was a community organizer, for petes sake. McCain on the other hand has fought in a war for this country and been tortured for us. I would much rather have him as a president than someone who is friends with the person who bombed the pentagon and won't put his hand on his heart when saying the pledge.

I vote for Obama I dislike McCain

McCain was extremely immature last night, But you are correct when you say they are both shooting insults and the like (there is BS on both sides)...they are both guilty. Problem with McCain is he keeps changing his mind and flip-flopping all over the place, and in all honesty his VP pick is down right scary if not a little stupid, imo. Yes, he was in a war, lots of others were as well...but I don't feel that gives him the experience to run a country...and sometimes experience isn't always good either. I think McCAin has a temper, he is not completely even-keeled...and he is not open to others opinions too much...I think he talks alot but isn't willing to do much...and then there is his age...I do respect others feelings on him and I see where others are coming from, I try to stay open-minded if I can but I just feel he is the wrong choice this time around. And maybe you should be reading what other GOP members are saying about Palin....she isn't impressin too much on either side. (politico.com) and watch the vid Doc posted above

Look through these articles, Allie: http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/obama.asp. If you're gonna dislike the guy, do it for an actual reason, and not a stupid rumor, please.

Have you watched her interviews? She doesn't need Obama to sound uninformed and incoherent. The sum total of her foreign policy knowledge is the location of Russia, or at least that's all she's been saying for weeks and weeks. If she would just admit, "Look, it was a stupid thing to say. Who cares if I can see the country from my house? Let's talk about something else," then I would have so much more respect for her. I mean, seriously.

How does fighting or being a prisoner prepare one for the presidency?

I didn't say it prepared him for the presidency, I just said I'd rather have him. It shows he has done a lot for this country and I respect him for that. However, about the rumor thing, sorry about that. Next time I'll look it up before I post it.

As for disliking Obama, I don't like him, I don't dislike him. Same with McCain. But to me, McCain is the lesser of 2 evils.

hmm...true but I don't see Obama running around here comparing McCain to AMERICAN PEOPLE.


Obama isn't the only one who talks about Palin, maybe you should google her. You'll get some "kick ass" results.



I dunno what IMO stands for but as I just said McCain is immature, that's my impresson of him.



George Washington our very first president was a planter basically a farmer oh and I can't forget our 16th president who was raised by two uneducated farmers and was a farmer himself for most of his life.
Hell while I'm at it lets throw in Bill Clinton who helped his grandparents run an operated grocery store. Something tells me Obama's old job was a hell of a lot better than those. Obama was only a community organizer for three years, he went to Harvard Law School after that.
Kudos to McCain for fighting in the war. Because every soldier in the army is good hearted.



Barack Obama

You don't know that Obama had anything to do with the bombing of the Pentagon- that's merely speculation and I highly doubt that it's true, or else it would have been proven by now. I don't see how not putting his hand over his heart during the pledge constitutes a bad president, either- I myself have met people who don't do that and it doesn't mean that they're the scourge of the earth. The general public has such a crazy idea of patriotism- flying the American flag at your front door or saying the pledge with more gusto than anyone else in the room does not a good American make. That's just propaganda. A good American is someone who will fight for freedom, and I think that as president, Obama will undoubtedly do that. Don't be so quick to jump to conclusions about the candidates- their personal life is just that, personal, and it is in no way a factor in how they will perform as presidents.

I really hate it when people put down his communty service experience....its amazing how much we actually need and use community servies:
Food stamps
Handicapp services(down syndrome for example)
Social security
small health clinics
and there are a ton more..thats just a sampling.....

and don't forget the Keating 5:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keating_Five
McCain got off but he is a criminal.

Oh and almost forgot his temper:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwTKM_u-7j4

and McCain saying horseshit during the debate:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1rZBmk0DYU

I know he probably didn't, as I didn't say he did. I said he was buddies with the guy who did.
Anyways, I'll agree that Obama is pretty awesome. I read his book, and his life was fairly interesting. But, I grew up in a very conservative household, and my dad pretty much hates Obama, so I hear a lot of it at home. I don't think he will make a bad president, I just disagree with a lot of his standings on things. I'm Pro-Choice, and the fact that he is for partial birth abortion really blows me away. Also, I believe that we should drill offshore. There are some things that I disagree with McCain on as well, such as the war. I agree that we need to bring our troops home. They both have amazing qualities We all have our right to an opinion, and I gave mine. I'm sorry we don't agree.

& Sorry, MintedBubbles, I didn't mean to offend you or be rude. I'm kind of out of it today.

You didn't offend me, and I didn't think you were being rude. I was just proving my point. It's a debate, you never apologize in a debate unless you directly offend a person.

Oh I know, I apologize a lot. It's a bad habit. :doh

Jenny, I was kidding, hence the [/sarcasm] thing. The thing slapped in my face was that McCain cares about our country and Obama doesn't, which is ludicrous to say the least. I called you madame because it made it sound more preposterous! :D! So yes, I agree with you, not with my sarcastic argument/statement.