Haha, my screen name was a reference to my ex husband who happens to have a Darth Vader fixation. I didn't even know that about the Irish bit, Xunixeon.

Here is the thing, no one gets the right to have a say but that woman who finds her self in the position of having to make the choice to abort her unwanted fetus. Until she put out a public call for someone else to make the decision for her, I am quite sure she will followthrough and there is not much anyone can do about it. By the way, there was a time when she did not need a doctor to do it, and like they say, we go around in circles. There is nothing new under the sun.

If a woman have made the decision to abort, I don’t see her giving a flying fish what anyone else think about it. I don’t see why anyone’s personal decision has to do with the public/strangers that would walk on by and could give a flying fish about her or her fetus.

Abortions must take place as it is a manifestation of a bigger problem/story with far more consequences, and the story will be told, over and over, and over again until someone finally gets it. If you being dead, what do you know of life OR how can you protect what you don't have your self when you don’t understand that abortions MUST first take place in the spirit before it can manifest into the world of the mostly living dead? The fight is not with flesh and blood! Abortions are legal, the dead are not!

Only the dead care about the dead , so let the dead bury the dead after all it is the only proper/right thing to do!

Did you read the post I put in the thread about Dr Tiller? About the MANY circumstances where abortion doctors have been faced with women coming in to have abortions who have previously been picketing the clinic? In many cases going straight back to it? (the only moral abortion is MY abortion)

Or the Texas college student, who was the president of her college's Right To Life chapter, who begged them not to tell anyone (which legally they couldn't and morally wouldn't) because it was very important position to her?

I've recently gone back to Christianity. The ONLY situation I can see myself having an abortion is if the child has no chance of survival once born. If I was faced with any other situation I would hope I was strong enough to not have an abortion. But until I'm faced with that situation? I don't know. And neither do you. From your posts (well you have to die sometime!) you come across as either very young or very naive. I pray that you're never put in a position where you do need to choose. But ultimatly you have the right to choose, which is a right every other woman has.

So you would prefer a mother, who may have 3 or 4 other children to look after, dies giving birth to another baby than looks after the children she already has?
Are you saying this:

is alive?
That's a ball of eight cells.
Would you count this:

as alive?

Lauren, what I am trying to get across to anyone here that will actually bother listening (not saying that you're not) is that I believe right or wrong is independent of what is popular or convenient or sometimes even safest for the mother. I believe abortion is wrong, therefore it does not matter to me how I feel or how much pressure I'm under, even of the life or death variety. Yes, I believe in a lot of black and white and am firmly convinced this falls under black, under wrong. As for young, I am twenty six. Whether or not that constitutes young is a matter of perspective, I suppose. Naive? Certainly not when it comes to the realm of facing personal hardship, which is the reason most of the abortion supporters here are citing as sufficient cause to get an abortion if a woman deems it right for her. I could post the laundry list of garbage I've had to face in my life if you needed the proof, but I sincerely doubt anyone here wants a biography of me. So please do not make such assumptions. Most individuals on this forum have little to no idea about what personal experiences I've had that shape my opinions. And I also hope you are never put in a position of having to choose, Lauren. Not because of any ill opinion of you or your beliefs, but because I just don't wish that agony on anyone.

And Urisstar, I honestly couldn't care less if the law says abortion is permissible, in the sense that I do not believe it to be the final authority on what is good or evil. I do not picket abortion clinics, but I am doing my part to work in getting Roe vs. Wade thrown out. I do not wish to harass any individuals and believe in working within the system. Dr. Tiller should never have been murdered. That was not justice- it was profane.

Of course I do not believe a sperm is a life, Splurgy. Yes, you may scoff, but I do believe life begins at conception. You act as if I have never seen images before like the ones you posted above. I am a mother. I have been to a great deal of obstetrics appointments and the doctors were quite thorough in educating me on the facts of pregnancy.

I dont beleive i ever said it was your opinion that detracted your ability to communicate. If i did not want to talk to people with differnt opinions i would just go on a pro choice website not a debate thread. If you look through the rest of the posts you will see that when somone puts their point across well i can understand and respect their opinion. Just coming in here blurting out what you did and not including any thoughts or feeling behind it does not make good debate in my opinion. But as i said before this is a strong issue and emotions get over heated, so there you go.

I reconize that a fetus is human, i never said it wasnt. But the debate come down to when a child becomes a child. And if somthing that has never had life takes priority over someone who has.

I think if science found a way to let the fetus survive outside the womb this would be a differnt disscusion. But they cant. And as no person (or child) has the right to any part of someone else's body women will always have the right to an abortion. So even with the argument that a fetus is a child woment will still have that right to abortions as that "child" can not survive with out the woman and it has no right to the womans body.

Splurgy,
Yes, the cells are alive and the beginning of a human life. You really don't want to me to post graphics to prove my point that abortion is murder.

Jillbea,
You clearly did not read the part 1 of this debate, where I made a number of points that continue to go ignored by those who believe a woman's right to choose what happens to her body is more important than the life that is taken as a result of that choice. I find the idea unconscionable and no amount of convincing will change my assertation that killing an unborn child is never justifiable.

Actually i did read it and my last post relates to it. My point is, as i do not see a child as a child until its born, the rights of the woman come before the rights of a fetus.

Then I can only hope that as you mature, you will one day come to realize that taking a life to protect a woman's choice of lifestyle is deplorable.

You have every right to believe whatever you want, however, you do not have a right to believe for anyone other/outside of YOU.

I too am beginning to care less about law, as while we say we are a nation of Laws I see clearly that does not apply to all and to bad if you ends up at the bottom of the pile, it's a man's world and we know he knows nothing about justice unless it benifits him/his self interest in some way.

The final Authority give to ALL free will and until He/She/They starts to rain down judgement right away on everything and everyone, He/She/They, did not give you or the pope or anyone else, the authority to take over anyone’s free will nor did He/She/They appointed us the final or beginning Judge of eachother. We will all do our own answering for what we do in the body and He/She/They reserved judgement unto Him/Her/Them self/selves. Do you care about life more than who/whom created life? I say, deal with your own hell and allow others to deal with theirs! I would take my chances with the real Judge and would ask that the Jr. judges do the same. . .I might as well join the free will stealing mob, don't you think? Get off of others free will cloud!

I dont think you have any right to say how mature i am. Anyway you seam totaly unable to see, repect or try to understand anyone else opinon. So im not going to try anymore.

Once again, Rabid has summed up my opinion more eloquently than I ever could. I firmly believe that while everyone has the right to their personal opinion, it's just that. No matter how wrong you believe abortion to be, you've no right to tell a woman that it's wrong for her to undergo one - it's her choice, and not one that she's going to have undertaken lightly.

It's been asked a dozen times, but what if it's to protect a woman's life? Some women develop life-threatening complications during pregnancy and termination is sometimes necessary to save their lives - I can't begin to imagine how devastating that is for them.

Feel free to post other images if you want. Early human embryos look almost like any other animal embryos. Most abortions are performed early on and I'm sure the pictures are nothing that anyone with an interest in the abortion debate hasn't seen before anyway.

Going back to rape victims - I don't think anyone who hasn't been there can begin to imagine the psychological trauma, and frankly I find it incredibly offensive to hear it said that a 'child' (I don't believe that an embryo is a child) shouldn't be punished for the sins of its father. I was raped at 16 and there's no way I could have coped with pregnancy. If you don't like it, that's your option, but don't anyone dare tell me that it's wrong for a rape victim to have an abortion.

And to protect choice of lifestyle? I don't think it's for anyone else to say. What if that lifestyle means that a woman can't support a child, or can't support herself through a pregnancy? What if it starts to affect her more seriously - what if she can't cope emotionally with the pregnancy and it puts her at suicide risk?

Just my two cents.

I believe that in the case of a pregnancy that results from a rape that there is not just one victim, longears. And yes, I will say again that a child should not be punished for the sins of its father. The person who raped you should be castrated. I'm not denying that the act of rape is anything short of monstrous and it deeply pains me that you ever went through such a nightmare. If you find my views offensive, I am indeed sorry, but I will not retract them, and if you ever came to me for assistance or comfort because of having been raped, I would never turn you away.

But coming from the viewpoint that the unborn, fetuses, embryos, whatever you like to call them- coming from the viewpoint that I do that they are children, it is very wrong to punish them by death for something they did not even do.

I hope with all my heart that your rapist got what was coming to them, longears, and despite our apparent differences, I hope you can believe that and I wish you only the best.

I think that this world is way too over populated to ban abortions. But I also don't think it should be done after the second trimester. It should be the woman's choice whether or not she wants to spend the next 18 years caring for the child. I know I sound cold hearted for saying this, but the child wouldn't know any different. All things intrinsically have the will to live, so yes I can agree that it would want to live, but in the first trimester it's not developed enough to even begin to think for itself, the second trimester is pushing it.

I think that people who really want a baby should adopt one first.(Which bring up issues I have regarding the adoption system...) There are way too many children needing families to just be popping out more left and right.

And you don't have any right to make the life and death choice for an unborn child. I also find it ironic that you are accusing me of being unable and/or unwilling to see anybody else's opinion. You've made up your mind that the death of a fetus is an acceptable loss. As long as you can live with your conscience, then so be it.

WannabeSith, thank you.

It's interesting that you're consistently referring to the loss of a foetus. Something like 90% of abortions are performed in the first trimester of pregnancy. Half of all abortions are performed in the first 8 weeks, when the 'child' is not a foetus, it's an embryo. Something that looks like this:



I know that you were addressing jillbean, but that to me is still a potential human. It's not a child. It's alive, but it's not yet a life. It can't sustain itself outside the woman's body. Even at the early foetus stage where it starts to look human - it doesn't have wants or dreams or desires - it can't want to be alive and it just (in my opinion) doesn't rate alongside the life of a grown woman if it's going to have a serious impact upon her life.

I do not know what you see in this image. What I see is a premature human being who is as entitled to life as the mother who helped create him/her. Remember that you and I were exactly like this at one stage in our lives. We were among the fortunate ones to survive Roe vs. Wade.

You've made your decision and I have made mine. For the time being, the pro-choice movement has the upper hand in the legal system. I will continue to vote for conservative candidates in the hopes that one day this tragic practice will be brought to a legal end.

In the interim, I will teach my children the horrific truths about abortion and I will teach them to value all human life from the time of conception to the time of natural death, and that nobody has the right to sentence another living being to die.

Imagine that you want to go to college to be a scientist to discover the cure for AIDS. Now you're wanting to be laid so you brought the condom with you, not knowing its expired. You have sex with the dude who has gonorhea but afterwards you went to the OB-GYN and found out that not only do you not have gonorrhea but you did not take the Plan B pill. But the bad news is...the Condom Broke and you're Pregnant! You followed what your parents have taught you and after being married to the guy who is now a drunkard, you end up like this...



Thanks to the baby girl, who has to suffer being born to no future except for gangs, drugs, and sex and your parents who won't let you go to college now that you're pregnant, your future is ruined.

As a reminder, if you can't abort, don't have sex.

I see an embryo - not a human child, but a 'potential human', if you will. Something that cannot want or think for itself. Something that cannot sustain life for itself and simply feeds within and from a woman's body. I believe that true human life begins at birth, or when a foetus is capable of sustaining itself outside the uterine environment - because that line is so hazy I do not support late-term abortion unless there is life or death risk to the woman. I don't for a minute believe that life begins at conception, which is why I have no issue with early-term abortion. I'm not pro-abortion but pro-choice - I don't view it as a 'good' decision, but it may be the right one depending on circumstances - if that makes sense. Pregnancy may prove too dangerous, adoption may not be an option, etc. Incidentally, there was an article in our weekend paper on this particular topic, and very few religious women/couples actually opt for adoption despite previously held anti-abortion convictions, because they don't want a child raised in a household where their beliefs on religion and child-rearing aren't adhered to.

What I support is a woman's freedom to choose what occurs within her own body, and regardless of their own personal beliefs nobody else has the right to infringe upon that freedom.

Abortion is right even if the person simply does not want to be a mother...she should have that choice.

Abortion is wrong even if the the person does not want to be a mother...the baby should have that choice.

Of course, since the baby within the womb cannot speak for him/herself, that obviously means his life is worth nothing. I just find it silly that rights for the woman's body are flung around in circles when the child's body within the womb has no rights. What differentiates it from being a complete human? A few months? Because each embryo develops at different rates, it's impossible to set a cutoff. Furthermore, what seperates an embryo from a new born infant? They both have no aspirations, no self awareness, and they don't
At least be consistent and support the murder of anything that falls under these characteristics

I'm being perfectly consistent - I've already said that I don't consider abortion to be murder. To have people like yourself call it murder is something that riles - if you consider it murder, then by definition you must consider any woman who has ever had an abortion to be a murderer. If a rape victim falls pregnant and has an abortion, what makes you think that you have the right to victimise her further by calling her a murderer? If a woman is pregnant and is forced by circumstances to terminate a wanted pregnancy to save her own life, how dare you accuse her of murder.

To answer your question, it is those few months that differentiate between potential human and human life. The difference between an embryo and a newborn infant? The infant, although it needs parental care and attention, can survive as an entity outside of the uterus. An embryo cannot. A newborn has the capacity to react, to display emotion - it quickly learns to recognise its parents and familiar surroundings. The embryo doesn't have that capacity.

This is laughable. Please check your facts before you post. It is a proven fact that the child reacts to the mother's voice and can show recognition of the father's voice as early as 28-30 weeks. There are a host of other external stimuli that the child will respond to all throughout pregnancy. You don't have the luxury of ignoring the proven facts, or worse, fabricating contradictory ones to help support your flawed logic. I suggest you educate yourself and stop being led around like mindless cattle toward the liberal agenda.

Zoxell - You may make your point, but you may not be rude about it. Correct your tone and attitude or remove yourself from this debate. Thank you.

Actually, that implies your own conclusion that human life begins before the embryonic stage. Because I think my mind is me, not my body (and so if I become brain dead, I will actually be dead, regardless of whether my body is still living). And embryos do not have minds, yet.

Therefore, I can say that I, for one, was never an embryo.