Of course. Conservative states do tend to buy more porn. Although, I'm not sure if that's an indication that conservatives view pornagraphy more, or if they're more likely to be dumb enough to actually buy porn. Say it with me: the internet is for porn.

Wow, it's amazing how quickly internet conversations can turn into sex. Of course, I'm being the catalyst here.

I am hearing a ugly debate about health care here. I just got a question, has anyone gone to the free clinic? Has anyone gone to the free clinic now that Obama is in office?? It sucks ass, waiting six months for treatment on a government program would be heaven because you know your actually going to get help eventually, if you live that long. Plus those places are so jam packed full of people, more then half probably won't be seen in a day.

How do I know? I can't afford heath care, and I have a condition that SHOULD in sense be watched by a doctor. I am lucky I make a dollar more then what most people do working dead end jobs, but it still isn't enough. What's worse is that a lot of health insurance companies find this as an excuse not to accept you.

Why should only the rich live?

Though yes there is a flaw with this idea. This is America you are talking about here. Look at our Welfare, medical assistance, and food stamp programs, look how they are taxing the government for money. Here in California were already being nickled and dimed to death by taxes. Should a government issue health insurance actually pass, I'd be screwed.

You know, this is America, I have to pay for Miss Breeding-Machine to have a million kids she and her maybe maybe not husband cannot afford.

I only have one final comment not directed at anyone in particular since I obviously dont want any points. If this is such a great bill than why does the government dodge any notion of this healthcare option for any members of congress. The government doesn't even want it.

First of all, please do learn to provide citations. Second of all, my main argument was that it sucks much less than the current system does.

::points and BigBadBrat:: Haha, sorry couldn't resist, and you know that is a good question.

That would be a good question to ask at a town hall, if only all those rude people would actually allow you to talk or show you some respect as a fellow citizens. I can't answer the question for you because I would have to lie in order for you to believe anything I say.

Good or bad, I'd be amazed if the proposed health care reform plan actually succeeded being passed into effect.

Then again, I didn't think President Obama would win the election--not in a million years--so I've been wrong before. I really just think the public view of it is so bad, regardless of how many lives it might save (or, in respect to the opposition's position, lives it might kill before a panel), it is so hated that, should the trend continue, supporting it will be political suicide.

It's amazing, really. I assumed people here in the US were, for the most part, governed by inertia, but people responded to this far faster than I ever thought. And if a black man with a non-white name can be so successfully compared to Adolf Hitler, something like this doesn't have a snowballs chance in hell.

*stands by in amazement*

[QUOTE=Synthesis]Good or bad, I'd be amazed if the proposed health care reform plan actually succeeded being passed into effect.

Then again, I didn't think President Obama would win the election--not in a million years--so I've been wrong before. I really just think the public view of it is so bad, regardless of how many lives it might save (or, in respect to the opposition's position, lives it might kill before a panel), it is so hated that, should the trend continue, supporting it will be political suicide.

It's amazing, really. I assumed people here in the US were, for the most part, governed by inertia, but people responded to this far faster than I ever thought. And if a black man with a non-white name can be so successfully compared to Adolf Hitler, someth

I thought they were going crazy because the Republican party's pretty much in its death throes. No, wait, scratch that. Only the sane Republicans would recognize that. The crazies think it's an improvement.

Almost a year ago, I was convinced that Americans wouldn't elect a black man with a non-Anglo-Saxon name who was actually popular overseas--the first such presidential candidate in decades to actually be liked overseas.

I was obviously wrong. And I could be wrong again, but I don't think I will be.

The "crazies"--I'm reluctant to call them that, but there are times, such as when some middle-aged woman declares that the government is going to murder her mother, when I have to admit it might be an appropriate moniker--as you've dubbed them, I do think they have the convictions necessary to kill this bit of legislation. Rationality or convincing evidence is not necessary to kill legislation--which is not to say that the opposition lacks them or has them--but it isn't.

As Glen Beck said, "Believe in something. It doesn't matter if it's right or wrong, believe in it." I understand what he meant now. The opposition believes this is part of a greater government conspiracy to deny them health care, or even to literally murder of portions of society considered to be "unfavorable". I honestly think they believe it. I cannot say to what degree, because I'm a suspicious person by nature, but I think they believe it as much as necessary to make congress soon see this as political suicide.

It may take a bit longer, but I think it'll happen.

I'm a little ashamed to admit I, personally, will be "okay" with either outcome. Mostly because I'm a dual-citizen and a member of the petit bourgeoise. If/when the American health care collapses under the weight of rising costs, a sicker population, and the necessity to make a profit off both of these factors, I have a simple option if I fall ill: I will go home and seek treatment there. In fact, I've done it before. It will not be the best in the world, but it will be better than certain parts of the United States, and I know for certain it will be cheaper. I do, however, feel for those who do not enjoy my options.

I think they call it family values. Oh, and the other one is called Jesus save! It is however only an old GOP tactic of distraction/deception.

"I thought they were going crazy because the Republican party's pretty much in its death throes. No, wait, scratch that. Only the sane Republicans would recognize that. The crazies think it's an improvement."

Scary to the bones!

It is amazing to me how quickly liberals turn on free speech...if it is code pink or cindy sheehan, you are all in favor of free speech, support any disruptive activity that interrupts a conservative agenda...but, as soon as the tables are turned, your glorious leader calls for citizen to turn in citizen, to create a list of those that dissent, you gladly proclaim the death of their cause, etc...despite the fact that Obama's approval rating is steadily declining, and you completely forget your history...In 1992, Bill Clinton became President, and he governed over a democrat led congress. After two years of doing whatever the hell he wanted, America overwhelmingly voted Republican in the congressional races to balance the power out again. You are fools if you think these protests are going to help democratic candidates in the 2010 elections, those candidates will have to defend the irresponsible spending spree of Obama, they will have to defend the tactics used to silence his critics, basically, they will take the blame. The approval ratings of all of the democratic leaders in congress, from nancy pelosi to harry reid, are already suffering enormously, and it wouldn't be surprising at all to see the 2010 elections put a Republican majority back in Congress. Just remember, everything Obama does, every penny he spends, every tax he raises while the democrats have a majority, will come back on them. Democrats cannot blame the GOP, because they have enough of a majority to almost do anything they want without any GOP help. IE, you will have nobody to blame but yourselves when the American people get pissed off at all the spending you are doing. Seen the congressional approval ratings lately? its in the teens. That doesn't bode well for the democratic leadership.

Davious, first off--you need to use the enter key more.

Second, I think you're correct. There is definitely a chance that this will be a extremely powerful body-blow to the Democratic party as an institution. It's a powerful message and idea that the opposition (to the plan) has successfully broadcasted.

The Democrats can count on the fact that, despite their drooping popularity, the Republicans, as an institution, have literally abysmal approval in the eyes of the general population. Really, even though the Democrats are about to get a serious right-hook after this jab, the Republicans have already kissed the canvas more than twice in the past few months, though they were able to get back up on their feet. But much of this is owed to selective embarrassments like romantic affairs blowing up, resignations, and the usual things we see with politicians. "The government is going to kill old people" is a much more coherent message, I think.

We'll see with time. And I don't recommend further boxing metaphors.

I would like to see a NHS... and as a previous poster said the American public is largely uneducated as to what a NHS would mean. And furthermore and coming from a position as person that works in the medical field I find it downright stomach churning the hassles even people with health insurance deal with just to get decent care. Sure you can get prompt procedures here but you gotta have that all might dollar first.

This thread is just going all over the place... and by "all over the place" I mean "Hurray, another democrats suck/republicans suck debate!" Plus a race card thrown in for good measure.

Come on, guys. Health care. Let's try to mention it enough that we can at least pretend that the debate is still on topic.

I don't think people really pay attention to the things President Obama say, but he got me to believe in the good people of America, even though the crazies make the loudest noise. They, the crazies, seem to prefer America stay in hell than actually be a place worthy of its claims. It is like the dregs floating to the top for everyone to see, as it is said, pride comes before a fall.

Its a freak show but oh so entertaining. . .race, race, race. that is a secret/private joke I need to insert before I end this post.

I too hold duel citizenship and if the Queen Mary starts to burn I will help in trying to put out the fire, but if it is of no use, I will be somewhere else to tell the story as I am not going down with the crazies in any shape or form.

Wow, your typing really went straight to hell in this post.

Anyhow, care to clarify this part of the post? Besides, my comments on the Republican Party were an observation. They can say whatever the hell they want, really. Even if Obama approval ratings get as low as Bush's did, I doubt Palin would ever appeal to more than just the wingnuts currently dominating the Republican Party. That, and someone who went to five colleges in six years before graduating and couldn't last as Governer is not someone I would trust to be President, regardless of her politics.

But, that's enough Palin shots for now. How about we get back to talking about porn?

The bill is right here on my blog in plain English. Please read it, and see for yourselves that our freedoms and privacy are being taken from us. We are headed towards bigger and bigger government. They want to control everything but our bowel movements
http://theelephantstrumpet.wordpress.com/

The problem is that the government is trying to cram it down our throats as fast as they can, and noone including many of those who are to vote on it have had a chance to actually read the bill. They dont want to allow anyone time to read it cuz then people would realize this bill is a slow boat to a single payer system which most in America dont want. They want to slow boil us before we even have a chance to realize the water is getting hotter.

So you are saying that the people of this country is so ignorant that the republicans is default? I think the problem with this party is that it is always looking backwards to pull out answers needed for today, not realizing it is a new day. It is like holding on to old underwear that you put away twenty years ago but forgot to wash them and yet believing no one will smell the stink because it is old stink.

As bad as republicans like to rule they suck at it but don't ever seem to take the time to find out why.

Oh and I wonder what would be the narrative if Obama came into office folded his arms and did nothing/spending no money as this country sit in the toilet?

Republicans make better comedians who are in need of insurance reform so they can save money and feel better about themselves!



You are really scared!
( davious )

You are really making me feel proud of all my African ancestors that were ridiculed and actually had a reason to be in fear of government/people. Would it be mean if I was to say now for the first time you may understand what other people felt.

I feel relieved for the first time that my government is not out to get me, while you are feeling the opposite. It is a horrible feeling, I know!

Insurance reform is good for everyone!

Oh, I read your blog post, all right. I even tore it into little pieces for you. Come on, I'm not even out of high school. Surely, you can do better than that. And really, the word "freedom" is used so often, in so many contexts, that it is meaningless. Besides, you've already been caught outright lying in this thread once, so your credibility is questionable at best.

As for the rest of your post:

I'm not a fortune teller, so I can't predict what the consequences of universal health care will be. I couldn't tell you if it would be more efficient or if quality health care would be administered.

I would say, however, that the thought of universal health care is a little scary for several reasons.

1. The government is getting monstrous. Shouldn't they try and be as "hands-off" as possible? What is the purpose of government anyway? To maintain order and security, right? Good, so let them build roads and protect us from fires. But what about health care?. Yes, although many would disagree, you could argue that government is potentially responsible for that. But to slam this huge program at us is very "in-your-face," detrimental to our freedom, and, to be frank, socialist. And let me just say I despise it when people lightly toss around the terms "socialist" and "racist."

2. Universal health care would be astronomically expensive - hovering around a trillion dollars. We're trying to install a program like that during the worst economic downturn since the Great Depression? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to tell you that that just isn't smart. And where's this money going to come from? From a small business point of view, we are already being shredded by the government. To say these further expensives would be crippling is an understatement. We're not talking about super rich executives in jet planes here; average people trying to make a living with their small businesses will be squeezed.

3. Related to the above two points: employers will foot much of the bill for universal health care. Yet the paradox is that we're in a recession and we need more jobs. How are they supposed to provide employment AND pay additional expenses at the same time?

4. Implementation and execution. Now, I've heard that in some countries, their national health care system is fine. But you can call it propoganda, you can call it whatever you want, I've heard the horror stories about universal health care in other countries where one could wait months or even years for the care they need. How do I know that won't happen here? Of course, if we backed out of every potentially viable yet risky solution we wouldn't have progressed anywhere as a society. But the case here is a little overwhelming. I'm almost getting the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality - except something here in this country is certainly broke. We just don't need an even more broken solution.

5. There's really no way I can say this without sounding heartless: Idealism. That's a lot of what I see in this program. Don't get me wrong, I understand that there are millions of people out there that can't afford the health care and I can sympathize with these people. But is this program really realistic or are we just being idealist? It seems more like the latter to me. We seem to think that we can have everything and solve everyone's problems when that's just not possible. Look at California, a very progressive and idealistic state. Environmentally friendly, heading towards universal health care, etc. Yet we've seen in the past year that it's all come crashing down. Why? They could't afford it. They simply wanted it all when, in reality, we can't have it.

Now there's evidently a problem with our health care system if there are millions of people who can't afford it. But this feels like it's too much and at the worst time in more than half a century to boot.. There's got to be another solution. Just my two cents.

Rant On: I think Obama should have push education first! Education should required and free for all as a right of citizenship. Rant Off.

WCF, I've been trying to respond to your post since around 6:00 AM, but keep having to scrap them because they all sounded rude without my even going for rude.

I keep wanting to hook you up with links and go into a long explanation to aid your understanding, even though I hate writing long post. What I realized is that it is your preference to not understand and your choice to be one of the crazies because, with you having access to a computer and the Internet, with the ability to search out what you don't understand, sadly you've chosen not too.

Your best bet is a town hall meeting where you actually allow others to speak as they try to answer your concerns. Power to the people, or something like that!

It is misleading to say that nationalized health care will be an option that won't drive out private insurance. They would not be abolishing private insurance outright, but they would not have to. All they have to do is offer services at a much lower cost and it'll drive them out of business. Not to mention, they're also dumping a boatload of new regulations on employers and insurance companies, making it that much harder to stay afloat.

I've heard the argument that if government health care is good enough for our military, it should be good enough for us. Well, I'm going to put it bluntly- unless you suddenly find yourself missing a limb, military health care stinks. I spent three years trying to get various military doctors to figure out why I couldn't breathe well. I'm not even going to go into the cost of tests or anything like that, but think on this- it is a lot harder to fire government employees. They can be as lazy as they want because it is a great deal harder to hold them responsible for it.

I have spent the last year and a half (since my divorce I am no longer covered by military health care.) working hard to avoid accepting government charity (always comes with strings). It hasn't been easy and at times even required sacrifice, a word this administration loves to throw around as an excuse for chipping away at our liberties. I have been planning to pay for my own health insurance once I find an employer that can take me on despite the current economic recession. As soon as I can afford it. This plan would penalize me for not having insurance, even if I don't have the money to pay for it. I would have to accept some kind of help if I were to get it right now, and that, I think, is the real reason congress and this administration are pushing so hard for this to happen.

Control.

Not a genuine concern for the well-being of the country's population, but mob-like tactics to gain control over the populace through the liberal use of favors. A "You owe us, so you'll do as we say" kind of thing. And if we don't, suddenly we could find ourselves without those benefits we'd come to rely on. Since when have we come to think that any politician has anything on their agenda beyond furthering their own career?

There's probably an element of truth in that. And I say FINE. Look at what you said -- national health care would offer insurance at a lower cost... And some private insurers wouldn't be able to compete, or would have to create new niches for themselves (the more likely possibility). There will always be a market for gold-plated health insurance that supplements and/or goes beyond whatever the government offers. But even if not so, I say FINE, let them find real jobs.

I remember when the HMOs basically took over the whole health care industry back in the 80s. My own family doctor told me that it was inevitable, that everybody was having to go HMO. And so now we have bureaucrats telling us what doctors we can see and what operations we can have. It's cheaper than what we could afford ourselves, but we all had to do it to keep up with the rising costs and the collapse of the private doctor system. This is a system that nobody but the HMOs ever really wanted. I say to Hell with it.

And I don't understand, for the life of me, why people have to get their insurance through their business. That's not capitalism -- that's just custom or tradition. Middle-class health insurance was a product of the union movement of the early part of the 20th century, which pushed to make industrial employers insure their employees. And that's how most people get their insurance today. But why does it have to be through employers? Think of the awful burden that puts on employers, especially small ones that would be better off focusing on the details of their actual business than having to juggle insurance plans for a small employee base. I had to do that when I was employing, and I hated it. It's a miserable time suck. Suddenly the health of a few people working for you is your concern. It's easier to just pay them as consultants and tell them to fend for themselves.

And as a consultant, insurance is a real bitch. Maybe it's easier now than it was when I was consulting, but insurance for private consultants is a huge rip-off.

I loved it when John McCain brought up this point back in 2008 in his town hall meetings. Why do employers have to be the source of insurance? It's just plain custom. Things evolve that way and become stuck through inertia. Buying your own personal insurance without the benefit of a group business plan is a rip-off. From the POV of insurance companies, the system works (for them) the way it is, so why try to make a profit some other way?

I, too, hate the idea of being more indebted to the government for government services. But the system the way it is now is just broke, and the people who don't realize it yet just haven't discovered it yet in their own personal lives. Sooner or later it's going to bite you too. Probably the worst experience for me was after my wife had her baby and lost control of her bladder and Pacificare dicked us around for years without approving a simple operation to tighten up the muscles that control the bladder that are weakened after childbirth. It's always tantalizing to know, "Jeez, I could just round up the money and find my own doctor to fix this, not some Pacificare quack... HEY WAIT A F'ING MINUTE! Why are we paying for insurance anyway!"

Even though I know you think you are talking about the government it sounds more like you are talking about the insurance companies. The only thing you got wrong was the part about being lazy and can't be let go. It is more like don't deny coverage and you are let go. Screw as much people out of their benefits by finding reasons for the insurance co, not to pay and you get a $50,000 end of year bonus. You save the company from having to meet their commitment to pay out and you (employee) gets a percentage of the savings.

At this point, if you have insurance but have never had to use it, you asked those that did have to use it and ended up screwed by the private sector and ending up in the arms of your government anyway.

From where I am looking, one (insurance co.) is raping you and making you pay for it and the other (your government) wants you to pay them to prevent you from getting rape. No charity there, nothing is free!