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Nysha's New Creators for July - posted on 1st Aug 2018 at 9:00 AM
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Original Poster
#1 Old 4th Jul 2010 at 7:21 PM Last edited by jhd1189 : 9th Jul 2010 at 6:19 PM.
Default Religion Thread: Christianity (Part II)
This is a continuation of the original Christianity thread, which was closed after exceeding 1000 posts. Whether you're a Christian or not, you can debate all aspects of Christianity (all sects) in this thread.

The same rules still apply here. PLEASE remember to be nice and courteous to your fellow debaters, and to post links to evidence that backs up your position whenever possible!

The original debate can be found here.
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#2 Old 5th Jul 2010 at 9:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Extensa5420
If you are a non-Christian, reading this article on wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity, and reading the Christian Bible, may be helpful in learning general information about Christianity.

The wikipedia varies from language to language: as english is most commonly spoken in the USA, the english wiki describes the USA version of christianity. It does not mention christianity in west Europe is different or vice versa.
One example is the variation upon the belief in who Jesus actually was in the various versions of christianity:

English wiki version:
Christians believe Jesus is the son of God, God having become man and the savior of humanity. Christians, therefore, commonly refer to Jesus as Christ or Messiah.[3]

In the english version, god has become jesus. This seems to be what most USA people believe.

Dutch wiki version:
De christenen geloven dat Jezus de zoon van God is en de messias die voorspeld en aangekondigd werd in het Oude Testament.

Translated:
Christians believe Jesus is the son of God and the messiah who was prophesied in the Old testament.

The dutch christians typically belive jesus was the son of god, as was tought in my elementary school too. He is not god in this version, but his son, a different person.

German version:
Jesus wird von den Christen als der Christus (der Gesalbte), also der j├╝dische Messias, verehrt sowie als der Mensch gewordene Sohn Gottes.
Once again, "son of god", though this part is harder to translate correct considering my german skills. He is referred to as the "jewish messiah".

The wikipedia is quite subjective, and vary upon language from language. To get to know christianitity the wiki is a rather subjective source. (this goes for a lot of descriptions).


"When the moon is in the seventh house
And Jupiter aligns with Mars
Then peace will guide the planets
And love will steer the stars"
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5th Jul 2010 at 3:38 PM Last edited by Extensa5420 : 5th Jul 2010 at 3:49 PM.
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Mad Poster
#3 Old 5th Jul 2010 at 6:15 PM
"The reason science is a major theme of this thread is because Christianity - indeed religions in general - are at odds with science. They claim knowledge without evidence."

Then maybe it should be called the 'Opposition to Christianity' thread.
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#4 Old 5th Jul 2010 at 7:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Extensa5420
Yes, that is one flaw of reading the wikipedia article. It's not perfect, because it does not mention European views of Christianity. However, if you do not know Christianity at all or never have heard of it before, then this article is a good place to start. You may also read the Bible as well to get some general, basic information, but you may also have to keep in mind that it is a translation or interpretation and reading multiple translations or interpretations may help you understand many views of Christianity.

Personal anecdote: I have never been educated in religion in school or at home, so most of my knowledge of religion, especially Christianity, is from reading books (esp. the Bible) and flipping to the religious channel on TV, where a priest gives his interpretations to the audience. On TV, you can also find fascinating Biblical stories, like Noah's Ark or Adam and Eve. From my former classmates, I heard of the story of David and Goliath. Now to a person who knows so little about religion, all this stuff is so interesting, because I can now understand what people are talking about when they use religious references in language!

The USA version of christianity is much more extreme and not in the positive sense. It focusses a lot more on the dark sides of the religion. The west european version is much more does-not-know-christianity friendly. When I was a kid I never realized USA christianity was that extreme. Or that any christian story would be more real than any other story we got read at school. It was disneyfied christianity thats for sure.


"When the moon is in the seventh house
And Jupiter aligns with Mars
Then peace will guide the planets
And love will steer the stars"
Site Helper
#5 Old 5th Jul 2010 at 7:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanito
The USA version of christianity is much more extreme and not in the positive sense. It focusses a lot more on the dark sides of the religion.


It's not just the USA version. It's the North American version(s) of Christianity that can be a bit scary.

Check out what the Prime Minister of Canada believes: C&MA in Canada - Beliefs

I went to school with a bunch of these folks, too. Attended youth group a couple of times. Got completely weirded out. That sort of thinking just doesn't jive with me. It's so... black and white, for lack of a better term.
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#6 Old 5th Jul 2010 at 10:45 PM
Quote:
Then maybe it should be called the 'Opposition to Christianity' thread.


If you have a defence for claiming knowledge without evidence then out with it.

CAW Wiki - A wiki for CAW users. Feel free to edit.

GON OUT, BACKSON, BISY BACKSON
Scholar
#7 Old 5th Jul 2010 at 11:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fakepeeps7
It's not just the USA version. It's the North American version(s) of Christianity that can be a bit scary.

Check out what the Prime Minister of Canada believes: C&MA in Canada - Beliefs

I went to school with a bunch of these folks, too. Attended youth group a couple of times. Got completely weirded out. That sort of thinking just doesn't jive with me. It's so... black and white, for lack of a better term.

A bit scary? North american christianity in politics are about as extreme as the turkish islam politics. It is quite extreme when you've seen better. Extremist religious people shouldn't be in politics at all. Our previous prime minister was a christian, but he couldn't spout his beliefs around or he'd lose votes. Evangelizing and quoting bibles in politics does not work for the majority of voters here, so the dude had to base his ideas on reason instead. That kills off a lot of religious insanity, because there is no reasonable explanation for it to voters when "because its in the bible/god wants it" is cut off.


"When the moon is in the seventh house
And Jupiter aligns with Mars
Then peace will guide the planets
And love will steer the stars"
Site Helper
#8 Old 5th Jul 2010 at 11:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanito
Evangelizing and quoting bibles in politics does not work for the majority of voters here, so the dude had to base his ideas on reason instead. That kills off a lot of religious insanity, because there is no reasonable explanation for it to voters when "because its in the bible/god wants it" is cut off.


We don't have evangelizing and quoting the Bible, either. That would cause a firestorm of controversy, since we're a pretty diverse country and one group or another would be up in arms about their rights being violated. The religious influence is more subtle. Like how Canada refused to fund abortions in developing countries because they said it had nothing to do with maternal health.

Unfortunately, it seems that a large number of the people who actually get out and vote hold similar beliefs to the governing party. That doesn't mean they represent the views of all Canadians. They just represent the views of the Canadians who vote.

Sometimes apathy is far more dangerous than actually doing something.
Scholar
#9 Old 6th Jul 2010 at 7:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fakepeeps7
We don't have evangelizing and quoting the Bible, either. That would cause a firestorm of controversy, since we're a pretty diverse country and one group or another would be up in arms about their rights being violated. The religious influence is more subtle. Like how Canada refused to fund abortions in developing countries because they said it had nothing to do with maternal health.

Unfortunately, it seems that a large number of the people who actually get out and vote hold similar beliefs to the governing party. That doesn't mean they represent the views of all Canadians. They just represent the views of the Canadians who vote.

Sometimes apathy is far more dangerous than actually doing something.

Thats even creepier.


"When the moon is in the seventh house
And Jupiter aligns with Mars
Then peace will guide the planets
And love will steer the stars"
Instructor
#10 Old 12th Jul 2010 at 9:46 PM
So I had this really nice 4th of July BBQ, and some friends who were invited had friends coming in from out of town--so of course i welcomed them to include their friends.

These friends were super-Christian--little references to Jesus and Baptism and stuff like that--but they were nice and one was a blimp pilot, so it was fun to talk to them. They mentioned their house in England and one in Massachusetts with the Jesus sculpture, etc., etc. I never said ONE word about my personal beliefs--nor did my daughter to their kids. We've learned to keep a low profile.

So today, I got a thank-you note from them in the mail. Here is the text, verbatim;

Dear Otter (except for that, they used my real name )

Thank you so much for including us on your Independence Day--we had such a good time meeting you and your daughter. I hope you will soon be as blessed as we are--remember that with Him all things are possible! Blessed in Christ, Mr. & Mrs. Christian.

So what do you think of that? A comment on my one-bedroom house? My 12-year-old car? My lack of constant prayer?
Site Helper
#11 Old 12th Jul 2010 at 9:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by grumpy_otter
So today, I got a thank-you note from them in the mail. Here is the text, verbatim;

Dear Otter (except for that, they used my real name )

Thank you so much for including us on your Independence Day--we had such a good time meeting you and your daughter. I hope you will soon be as blessed as we are--remember that with Him all things are possible! Blessed in Christ, Mr. & Mrs. Christian.

So what do you think of that? A comment on my one-bedroom house? My 12-year-old car? My lack of constant prayer?


This is a great example of why some Christians bug me. They've made an assumption that your life is crap, that you're not "blessed", and that you couldn't possibly be happy without accepting Jesus. While I'm sure they probably mean well, that sort of condescending attitude drives me crazy.
Mad Poster
#12 Old 12th Jul 2010 at 10:50 PM
Living in the UK we're exposed to a fair bit of American culture. Religion seems to be a lot more prevalent in the US than it is in the UK: many more people follow one and it has more of an influence on lifestyle and opinion. Many of the issues I see with regards to religion - believing things in spite of the evidence to prove otherwise, intolerance, etc. - don't seem to be issues over here.

My dad's parents and sister are involved with the church but they've never tried to 'convert' us or anything. The Jehovas came knocking a couple of times when I was a kid but that's about as much as I've experienced with regards to having a belief pushed on me. Anyone I've met who is religious has barely even talked about it beyond purely mentioning that they follow one.

I'm thinking that this isn't specific to the UK but perhaps is quite European. Any thoughts? What about why religion seems to be so important to Americans?
Field Researcher
#13 Old 12th Jul 2010 at 10:52 PM
I really hate when some religious people blame other people's suffering on lack of belief in their god.
Alchemist
#14 Old 13th Jul 2010 at 12:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by christx101
I really hate when some religious people blame other people's suffering on lack of belief in their god.


" the earthquake hit because you pissed Him off! "

" ...no, the earthquake hit because theres a thing called continental plates. "


stone age VS new age, yeah?

"The more you know, the sadder you get."~ Stephen Colbert
"Science literacy is a vaccine against the charlatans of the world that would exploit your ignorance."~ Neil DeGrasse Tyson
"I'm not going to censor myself to comfort your ignorance." ~ Jon Stewart
Instructor
#15 Old 13th Jul 2010 at 10:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fakepeeps7
This is a great example of why some Christians bug me. They've made an assumption that your life is crap, that you're not "blessed", and that you couldn't possibly be happy without accepting Jesus. While I'm sure they probably mean well, that sort of condescending attitude drives me crazy.


I wish I knew if they knew I am atheist. If so, then they are probably just commenting on that. But if they didn't, then they must think they are better Christians than me because they have more stuff.
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#16 Old 13th Jul 2010 at 11:48 AM
Well, you know what we non-Christians say, Otter: Turn the other cheek. :P

CAW Wiki - A wiki for CAW users. Feel free to edit.

GON OUT, BACKSON, BISY BACKSON
Mad Poster
#17 Old 13th Jul 2010 at 4:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoseCity
"The reason science is a major theme of this thread is because Christianity - indeed religions in general - are at odds with science. They claim knowledge without evidence."

Then maybe it should be called the 'Opposition to Christianity' thread.


Or the Self-Righteous Atheist thread.
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#18 Old 15th Jul 2010 at 12:26 AM
Where has an atheist claimed in this and the last thread that they have a right to claim knowledge without evidence? Who is being self-righteous here?

I don't think it's the atheists and agnostics.

Please drop the insults and make a case, if you've an interest in debating the topic.

CAW Wiki - A wiki for CAW users. Feel free to edit.

GON OUT, BACKSON, BISY BACKSON
Alchemist
#19 Old 15th Jul 2010 at 2:14 AM
...on-topic, i would like to say, christianity made no sense to me whatsoever when i really looked into it.

the angels, for example.
as ive come to understand ( and correct me if im wrong? ), lucifer was, not the devil at first. he was an angel. the favorite, even. but when commanded by Gawd he refused to bow to humans.

NOW, ive also heard it flung around that humans > angels because of free will. free will pretty much dictates we choose whatever we please, right?

but if angels didnt have free will, lucifer wouldnt have questioned it. he wouldve bowed.
so does that mean MOST angels dont and some actually DO, or just that they do, but choose to kiss Gawd's ass anyway? because there really is a difference.

because, lets face it.
if you are created a certain way, thats all you have the power to be. thats all you know. thats all you will ever be able to know.
so if angels were created to be perfectly obedient to Gawd, how could lucy-fer say "no" at all?

and beyond that, because lucifer said "no", god...pretty much told him to go bone himself. he went to hell. actually, he Founded hell.
is that something a loving parent would really do?
if your child said "no" when you told them to do something, would you make them live in the basement and shun them forever?
especially if we are agreeing that this is your FAVORITE kid, you love other kids but not the way you adore this little bugger.
and as its been said before, either god is absolutely benevolent and forgiving ( and thus there is no "hell" ), or hes kind of a mean tyrant loophole specialist.

"The more you know, the sadder you get."~ Stephen Colbert
"Science literacy is a vaccine against the charlatans of the world that would exploit your ignorance."~ Neil DeGrasse Tyson
"I'm not going to censor myself to comfort your ignorance." ~ Jon Stewart
Scholar
#20 Old 15th Jul 2010 at 4:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuicidiaParasidia
NOW, ive also heard it flung around that humans > angels because of free will. free will pretty much dictates we choose whatever we please, right?

but if angels didnt have free will, lucifer wouldnt have questioned it. he wouldve bowed.
so does that mean MOST angels dont and some actually DO, or just that they do, but choose to kiss Gawd's ass anyway? because there really is a difference.


Making basically this argument in Sunday school when I was younger got me tossed out. The Priest told my mom that I couldn't come back untill I "learned my place".

Guess I haven't learned, because I'm still questioning "the church", although I do have a belief in God. That belief has come mostly from learning about various subjects in/through science however.

Sarcasm is a body's natural defense against stupid.
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#21 Old 15th Jul 2010 at 8:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kattenijin
That belief has come mostly from learning about various subjects in/through science however.


See, now that's an interesting claim. Can you elaborate?

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GON OUT, BACKSON, BISY BACKSON
Alchemist
#22 Old 15th Jul 2010 at 8:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kattenijin
Making basically this argument in Sunday school when I was younger got me tossed out. The Priest told my mom that I couldn't come back untill I "learned my place".

Guess I haven't learned, because I'm still questioning "the church", although I do have a belief in God. That belief has come mostly from learning about various subjects in/through science however.


i think its really just intended as a lesson of "dont question your superiors, be obedient"...much the way that priest reacted.
lucifer questioned/disobeyed. he was punished. pretty simple lesson, too bad it doesnt make any damned sense the way these people have twisted things up...


and last i checked,
obedience has nothing to do with a higher power. it has to do with controlling others.

"The more you know, the sadder you get."~ Stephen Colbert
"Science literacy is a vaccine against the charlatans of the world that would exploit your ignorance."~ Neil DeGrasse Tyson
"I'm not going to censor myself to comfort your ignorance." ~ Jon Stewart
Scholar
#23 Old 15th Jul 2010 at 6:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi_tea
See, now that's an interesting claim. Can you elaborate?


Off the top of my head, a lot of it is math related, things like the Fibonacci sequence, the Golden Ratio, groupings of the periodic table, dna sequenceng, weather chaos theory, fractals and Mandelbrot sets, etc. Studies about the time just after the "Big Bang", and how what may have been slight changes then would have led to major changes now.

And thats just the "simple" stuff. When you get into string theory, quantum physics, n-space, non-Ecludian geometry, it gets even more interesting.

There is too much inter-relationship between things that we see as discreet because we only experience 4 dimensions at a certain scale for me to believe there wasn't some sort of Creator.

To use the word "God" just keeps things simpler.

Sarcasm is a body's natural defense against stupid.
Scholar
#24 Old 15th Jul 2010 at 7:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuicidiaParasidia
...on-topic, i would like to say, christianity made no sense to me whatsoever when i really looked into it.

the angels, for example.
as ive come to understand ( and correct me if im wrong? ), lucifer was, not the devil at first. he was an angel. the favorite, even. but when commanded by Gawd he refused to bow to humans.

NOW, ive also heard it flung around that humans > angels because of free will. free will pretty much dictates we choose whatever we please, right?

but if angels didnt have free will, lucifer wouldnt have questioned it. he wouldve bowed.
so does that mean MOST angels dont and some actually DO, or just that they do, but choose to kiss Gawd's ass anyway? because there really is a difference.

because, lets face it.
if you are created a certain way, thats all you have the power to be. thats all you know. thats all you will ever be able to know.
so if angels were created to be perfectly obedient to Gawd, how could lucy-fer say "no" at all?

and beyond that, because lucifer said "no", god...pretty much told him to go bone himself. he went to hell. actually, he Founded hell.
is that something a loving parent would really do?
if your child said "no" when you told them to do something, would you make them live in the basement and shun them forever?
especially if we are agreeing that this is your FAVORITE kid, you love other kids but not the way you adore this little bugger.
and as its been said before, either god is absolutely benevolent and forgiving ( and thus there is no "hell" ), or hes kind of a mean tyrant loophole specialist.

The interpretation -some- theistic satanists give to the bible/religion makes more sense. God wrote the bible, the jealous, revengevull murderous god, who claims to be benevolent and loves to be worshipped. He wants obedient followers, most amusingly referred to as 'the sheep'. But god is not that great considering the misery on the planet. And the bible is not that great, because.. just read the first testament. How can anyone claim for THAT to be benevolent. Its a lie. God is arrogant, he wants to be worshipped OR ELSE...

Satan rebels against him, and is not the bad guy God makes him seem. Satan commands you to think for yourself and make your own descions. No mindless sheep. He has never made a book, and doesnt demands to be worshipped. He is blamed of a lot of misery on the planet, but since God is supposed to be --almighty--, that seems to be unlikely. Its far more likely God wants the misery there. Satan rebels against this god, so is consisered to be the good guy, the black sheep of the angels.

Some satanists believe Satan has a special place in hell for special people. Taking into consideration how miserably christianity often comes across, and what it does on the planet, this makes a most amusing anti-ideology.


"When the moon is in the seventh house
And Jupiter aligns with Mars
Then peace will guide the planets
And love will steer the stars"
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#25 Old 16th Jul 2010 at 12:43 AM
But isn't that the argument from irreducible complexity, kattenijin?

What does 'God' mean in this case? An intelligent creator? Or just a First Cause?

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