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Lab Assistant
Original Poster
#26 Old 16th Jun 2013 at 6:32 PM
I give Maybe my memory deceives me then... In my experience it's been much easier adding CC to TS2 than TS3, but maybe I've been lucky or just late enough that issues have been fixed.

Whenever people agree with me, I always feel I must be wrong

- Oscar Wilde
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Instructor
#27 Old 16th Jun 2013 at 6:44 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Kimsie
I give Maybe my memory deceives me then... In my experience it's been much easier adding CC to TS2 than TS3, but maybe I've been lucky or just late enough that issues have been fixed.


Of course it is easier and anyone who says otherwise is lying. Also as far as I know/remember it is very difficult to remove a certain CC when you want to (unless they have changed that).

Love does not consist of two people looking at each other, but of looking together in the right direction. - Antoine de Exupery
Mad Poster
#28 Old 17th Jun 2013 at 7:10 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Kimsie
I give Maybe my memory deceives me then... In my experience it's been much easier adding CC to TS2 than TS3, but maybe I've been lucky or just late enough that issues have been fixed.


That was because the game installation of The Sims 2 added a "downloads" folder for the purpose of CC. Also, the game itself included a delete button in CAS and Build/Buy Modes. The Sims 3 doesn't have these luxuries; though, the Ambitions patch did add support for CC.

Needless to say, The Sims 4 will most like support CC. The fact that it took a year for EA to give in and add CC support in The Sims 3 tells you that they realized that they had no choice. The Sims franchise without CC is like fish out of water. Creativity is just a huge part of it.

I do hope that we'll get the return of the in-game delete button in The Sims 4 as a convenient way to remove CC. I also hope the music system from The Sims 2 will return in The Sims 4. I miss the ability to add any song I wished to the radio stations, and I had the choice to disable one or more EA songs from each station, if not all of them.
Lab Assistant
Original Poster
#29 Old 17th Jun 2013 at 7:15 PM
I agree - that they didn't include it from the start in TS3 and then caved is a very good sign and is promising for added support in TS4

Whenever people agree with me, I always feel I must be wrong

- Oscar Wilde
Top Secret Researcher
#30 Old 18th Jun 2013 at 4:43 AM
Well, if they don't support CC, I'm not getting it.
Instructor
#31 Old 18th Jun 2013 at 8:44 AM Last edited by High Plains Gamer : 18th Jun 2013 at 3:07 PM.
It really depnds on how much of the Sims 4 is online. The current buzzword in the software community is "software as a service." ("SaaS") With SaaS, the program is actually on the developers servers, and you do your work on their servers. For example, with some conversion programs, converting one picture format to another, you upload your content, the developer's server changes what you upload and sends it back to you. This happens with a lot of the Google services. Also, it is the concept behind Microsoft's latest incarnation of Offic(Microsoft Office 365). The underlying goal is to eliminate unauthorized copying of a program. If the program never exists on your computer, you cannot make and upload an unauthorized copy of that program.

EA is very invested in SaaS and probably will try to cram it down our throats at every opportunity.

It also means that making custom content becomes difficult, if not impossible, because the code does not exist on your computer. The Sims 1, Sims 2, and Sims 3 could be modded because the program actually resided on your computer, meaning that you could go into the program, on your computer, and make changes. If you are playing the game on their servers, there is actually very little of the program on your computer.

A lot of people will declare that it is not in EA's best interest to try to prohibit modding. However, these declarations are entirely self serving, and reflect a consumer state of mind. EA, most likely does not see it that way. First, they want to prevent unauthorized copying of their software, and the one way of doing that is putting large chunks of the program online. Second they want to sell stuff through the store.

EA probably sees a lot of the custom content as competing with their store. That probably is why EA did not develop a tool like Bodyshop in the Sims 3, as they did in the sims 2. The modding programs were actually developed by outside developers. Also, keep in mind that EA tried to stop modding in the Sims 1 by filing lawsuits against modders. That approach sort of backfired on them, so they did not follow it in the Sims 2 or the Sims 3. However, I really suspect that EA will take another run at trying to kill modding. In fact I suspect that killing modding and preventing unauthorized copying is the whole reason EA is developing the Sims 4.

Who will prove to be right? The consumers or EA? Who knows?

It is fair to note that Microsoft tried a similar approach with Flight. It was non-moddable. Apparently Microsoft was upset because private developers were making money developing add ons for Microsoft Flight simulator. Of course, this belies the fact that Microsoft never developed any add ons, outside of two service packs. and the private developers offered products Microsoft refused to develop or offer. Flight itself was limited to flyng a general aviation aircraft around the big island of Hawaii and Microsoft started releasing add ons at a glacial pace. The product failed after several months because it simply did not offer that much to consumers.

Given EA's history of offering EPs at a glacial pace, and offering defective content, I am expecting an outcome similar to Microsoft's Flight. Also keep in mind that EA seems to release just as many, if not more, games which appear on retailer's shelves and are gone withing six months. Take the Sims Medieval as a case in point. I also expect a similar fail from Sim City 5. Sims Social failed because it was too buggy and dropped out of the top 25 games for online play. I suspect that EA will handle the Sims 4 in such a way that they will kill the franchise.
Top Secret Researcher
#32 Old 18th Jun 2013 at 6:43 PM
You "expect" a fail for Sim City 5?

Oh, it's already that!
Alchemist
#33 Old 18th Jun 2013 at 6:54 PM
If the Sims 4 doesn't support custom content, I won't support the Sims 4.
Field Researcher
#34 Old 18th Jun 2013 at 6:58 PM
Well, they're programming the Sims 4 in C++ and C#. That's all we know at this point.
One Minute Ninja'd
#35 Old 18th Jun 2013 at 8:39 PM
Quote: Originally posted by rkalanu
Well, they're programming the Sims 4 in C++ and C#. That's all we know at this point.


The same as TS3. However, we don't know if they will use the same kind of xml behavior control that makes tuning mods relatively easy to make, let alone how objects will be imported, and what kind of renders will be needed. So speculation about modding remains just that, speculation. However, the ability to mod, and my rejection of TS4 if it's not allowed, is quite concrete.
And all the maladies of the world burst forth from Pandora's cooch
#36 Old 18th Jun 2013 at 8:46 PM
I can see what your saying there, High Plains Gamer, and I mostly agree with what you are saying, but...

"Given EA's history of offering EPs at a glacial pace" is something I'm not sure about, since the Sims 3 releases either an EP or Stuff pack every three months. That's pretty consistent.
#37 Old 18th Jun 2013 at 8:50 PM
Given that the game's going to be offline, probably
Theorist
#38 Old 18th Jun 2013 at 8:56 PM
I'm sure The Sims 4 will have official support for simple CC that you can make with tools EA provides (i.e. CAW or Create-A-Pattern). Stuff that you can upload to The Exchange and install via ".sims4pack".

I do NOT expect any kind of official support provided for more complex mods that involve extracting and modifying or creating entirely new meshes, mods that change the way the game works (i.e. scripting or core mods), custom skins, etc. However, I don't think they will go out of their way to prevent those kinds of mods either. I think clever modders and reverse-engineers will be on their own to figure out how to extract meshes, figure out how the morph system works, figure out how the scripting system works, and figure out how to write their own tools to create such mods, because there will be absolutely no assistance or tools from EA for complex mods. Same as TS3 was.

If TS4 is really going to be C++ and C#, it would share that in common with TS3. The engine would likely be the C++ part (as it is now). Script/core modding for TS3 is usually done in C# (or straight MSIL for hard-core modders) so current TS3 script/core modders should be able to adapt to TS4 rather easily.

Resident wet blanket.
Instructor
#39 Old 19th Jun 2013 at 3:44 AM
Quote: Originally posted by Mordecai and Rigby
Given that the game's going to be offline, probably


How do you know it will be offline?

EA has said it will not require a persistent online connection. That is a far cry from being offline. I don't think EA would have qualified their description if it were an offline game.

Quote: Originally posted by ButchSims
"Given EA's history of offering EPs at a glacial pace" is something I'm not sure about, since the Sims 3 releases either an EP or Stuff pack every three months. That's pretty consistent.


It has been over four years since the Sims 3 was released, and it is almost, but not quite, at the point that the Sims 2 was at at the time it was discontinued. We are not going to get Open for Business, Freetime or Apartment Life, because EA was too busy screwing around with Generations, Showtime and Katy Perry Sweet Treats.

Waiting four years to get the most of the game the Sims 2 was IS a glacial pace.
And all the maladies of the world burst forth from Pandora's cooch
#40 Old 19th Jun 2013 at 4:59 AM
Quote: Originally posted by High Plains Gamer



It has been over four years since the Sims 3 was released, and it is almost, but not quite, at the point that the Sims 2 was at at the time it was discontinued. We are not going to get Open for Business, Freetime or Apartment Life, because EA was too busy screwing around with Generations, Showtime and Katy Perry Sweet Treats.

Waiting four years to get the most of the game the Sims 2 was IS a glacial pace.
Well, I guess that depends on what you define as "getting the most of the game". See, I like Generations and Showtime. (Sweet Treats, not so much). And I never considered OFB all that wonderful. I suppose some people fall into the "We want re-makes of ALL the packs from Sims 2" camp, and others are not.
Mad Poster
#41 Old 19th Jun 2013 at 5:08 AM
Quote: Originally posted by ButchSims
Well, I guess that depends on what you define as "getting the most of the game". See, I like Generations and Showtime. (Sweet Treats, not so much). And I never considered OFB all that wonderful. I suppose some people fall into the "We want re-makes of ALL the packs from Sims 2" camp, and others are not.


Some might fall in between, "want some of the stuff from TS1 and TS2 but not all". There are actually some things from TS1 that I would like to see come back, some we have got already which is nice because I wanted them already in TS2 but they never were made.
Field Researcher
#42 Old 19th Jun 2013 at 11:16 AM
Graham Nardone *does* read and respond in these forums---I don't recall EA officials doing that in the Sims 2, or the Sims 3 until the very end (now). They did make it possible to add CC through the Mods folder, as well.

This tells us that EA is at least aware that third-party CC is important to their players.

There isn't any reason at present to believe that they'll change their policy of benign indifference towards CC, now that they've made it clear that the Sims 4 is an "offline" game, with optional online hooks.

I think GnatGoSplat has it exactly right, although they may make some effort to protect code that has anything to do with online features from modders, for security reasons.
Instructor
#43 Old 19th Jun 2013 at 2:43 PM Last edited by High Plains Gamer : 19th Jun 2013 at 3:01 PM.
Quote: Originally posted by ButchSims
I suppose some people fall into the "We want re-makes of ALL the packs from Sims 2" camp, and others are not.


I definitely am in that camp. The previous incarnation of the game should be the starting point for the next incarnation. That is, the Sims 3 SHOULD have started where the Sims 2 left off. The Sims 4 should start where the Sims 3 ends. We should not have to wait three years to be able to swim in oceans again, four years to go to a university or take a tropical vacation, two years to have cities, and three years to have pets.

Otherwise, the Sims 4 will be a big step backwards.

It also means that if EA spends the next four years bringing the Sims 4 up to speed, they will not be adding any significant new features or expansions, because by the time the Sims 4 is where the Sims 3 currently is at, they will announce the Sims 5. The whole point of a simmer investing in a new game is to take the game to the next level, rather than simply repeat what has gone before.

For the gamer, a sims game can be a pretty significant investment. All of the EPs, SPs and store content add up. Figure that two or three EPs and two SPs a year come to around $200 per year. Figure that store content can easily add another $200 per year. Then add another $100 per year for EA worlds, at a rate of three worlds per year. Over the course of the game, that comes to around $2,000. Add the cost of subscriptions to sites like TSR or donations to other sites, the purchase of modding tools, like Milkshape, Photoshop and the like, and that cost can easily double. For an investment of that size, I want more than warmed over tripe.

Of course, I think EA's motivations for releasing the Sims 4 is entirely different from those of the people who play the game. The people who play the game want something bigger and better than the Sims 3. EA wants to sell us stuff they have already sold us before, to minimize development costs, and to prevent unauthorized copying. Of these, the last is probably what looms largest in their minds.

I think they recognize that cc is important to some simmers, however, they probably view this as a relatively small part of their fan base. Many casual gamers will not visit sites like this one, and many serious gamers want nothing at all to do with free cc -- preferring to spend a furtune on the high quality add ons available at the store -- like flushiing chamber pots and leaky greenhouses.

The number of simmers actually making cc (other than using the EA provided tools) is relatively small. Only a handful of modders do things like make meshes or write script mods. Fewer yet have attempted animations. Twallan has already announced he will not make mods for TS4, and we probably will not hear from Pescado until TS4 is something other than lies and propaganda.

The truth of the matter is that it takes a fair amount of time and effort to learn how to make cc for the game and to become proficient at doing it. I am sure most modders do not look forward to starting at square one every four years, when it takes them just about as long to learn how to make stuff for the new game.

This suggests that if the people actually making the stuff lose interest or burn out, it is irrelevant whether TS4 is modable or not.
Test Subject
#44 Old 27th Jun 2013 at 10:42 AM
Quote: Originally posted by Kimsie
I give Maybe my memory deceives me then... In my experience it's been much easier adding CC to TS2 than TS3, but maybe I've been lucky or just late enough that issues have been fixed.


It's not just you. CC was a huge part of my game play in Sims 2. I had thousands of CC in Sims 2 and it was piss easy to install and it also broke rarely. In Sims 3 it was complicated and time consuming to install and then my game would take over an hour to load with like 30 items. -_- which incidentally is why I stopped playing and stopped buying.
Test Subject
#45 Old 27th Jun 2013 at 2:07 PM
I'm in total agreement with you High Plains. EA is out to make money, not make simmers overtly happy. They know they need to throw us a few bones every now and again, but take a steak off their table and give it to us???? Might as well quoth the old saying "when hell freezes over".

I believe TS4 is only to keep EA making money off the franchise (hey, though they are still trying, it's getting old beating that dead horse called TS3 for it. Why do you think Hollywood keeps "restarting" shows like, say, Star Trek, Batman and Superman?). Hence, they'll only do it all over again - two years to give us TS4 pets, three to make it possible to swim in oceans, etc. And how they'll keep the players coming back is by upping graphics and providing something they didn't provide in TS1, TS2 and TS3 (which is how they got everyone to purchase TS2 after TS1 and TS3 after TS2 in the first place). Like I say, it's a restart, not a continuation.

I also believe the days of easy CC and modding TS are nearly gone (though TSR would have a conniption fit if that happened to CC - they could care less for modding). Yeah, there will always be some hard-line modders producing some kind of hack or another, but most of the good modding (like provided by Twallan and Pescado) will eventually be history.

Notwithstanding all this, TS4 will probably still be a lot of fun.
Lab Assistant
#46 Old 27th Jun 2013 at 2:34 PM
Quote: Originally posted by weirdwallee
...

And how they'll keep the players coming back is by upping graphics and providing something they didn't provide in TS1, TS2 and TS3 (which is how they got everyone to purchase TS2 after TS1 and TS3 after TS2 in the first place). Like I say, it's a restart, not a continuation.

...
.


Not everyone. I never purchased TS3 because I wasn't i nterested in restarting and the new changes weren't enough of a compensation. And do not intend to automatically purchase TS4 either.
Instructor
#47 Old 27th Jun 2013 at 3:15 PM
All I can say is, it better. I wouldn't play without mods and custom content. I hope they realise that the only reason they have so many players is because of custom content and work very hard to support it.

But this is EA, the company obsessed with short-term moneymaking, I'm afraid they may try to stifle custom content, and run The Sims into the ground. If that happens the best case scenario is that they will be persuaded by some other publisher to sell them the rights, and the other publisher will be smarter. But most probably it will just die.
Scholar
#48 Old 28th Jun 2013 at 3:10 PM
Without custom content and especially mods, the sims franchise would become shallow very fast (for my taste). I think that allowing custom content and mods is very important for any sandbox game. I suspect that most of the devs from the sims franchise would agree. But despite that I still doubt EA if it comes to that. They seem to have this annoying management layer that doesn't give a shit about games and only seems to look at pie charts or something :p
Instructor
#49 Old 28th Jun 2013 at 3:27 PM
I don't think they'll try to stop people from making or using CC. Even EA isn't that stupid, they know CC is a huge thing with pretty much all games and many users can't even play the game without some kind of mod.
I just think they're going to keep making it more and more difficult, in the hopes that people won't be bothered with it and will just buy from the store instead.
Theorist
#50 Old 28th Jun 2013 at 5:14 PM
I really don't think their stance on CC will change. Like it was with TS3 and TS2, I'm pretty sure they will neither prevent nor assist with 3rd party CC.
It will be left up to the reverse engineers in the modding community to crack the code on how to make CC and get it into the game, and EA won't bother to try to stop it.

Resident wet blanket.
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