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Field Researcher
Original Poster
#1 Old 23rd Jul 2013 at 12:06 PM
Default Rabbit-holes vs Shells
Although I didn't mind the rabbit-holes, there were people who did.
Someone suggested shells where we would be able to see... this made made me think of Lionhead's The Movies where Scriptwriters or any other movie studio worker would have had set animations when placed in a specific lot.
ie:



Do you think the repetition of the walk in lot, do work, eat lunch, go home (or some other variance) animation would be more preferable than rabbit-holes?
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And all the maladies of the world burst forth from Pandora's cooch
#2 Old 23rd Jul 2013 at 12:44 PM
I wouldn't mind a mixture of the two. It depends in the other features of the game. Some jobs work best as rabbitholes, in my opinion, because sending a sim off to an office all day where they work at a computer isn't that exciting to watch. (nor that exciting in Real Life.) Other jobs, like, say, Doctor, might work better when you can follow them around, like the Clinics dealie that came with Ambitions.

I know there is some hate for RHs, but honestly, when you are playing multiple sims in a household, it can be a relief to send someone off for a few hours, allowing you to focus on your other sims for awhile, without worrying about if Dad is going to pee his pants while you watch Mom jumping on the Trampoline. Particularly with an open world, where sims can be clear across the map from each other.
Mad Poster
#3 Old 23rd Jul 2013 at 12:55 PM
I would prefer playable rabbit holes. Is there such a thing? Say a Sim goes to work/school and disappears on the rabbit hole, it would be awesome to have the option of clicking on the building and being able to play some of what needs to happen there, however, I wouldn't want it to be so prescribed as a shell, I'd want it somehow object based. Maybe, for example, if the Sim was in class, the player could click on the books and choose to study. Clicking on the teacher would give the option to "Ask for help" "Give answer" "Butter Up". The Sim could click on classmates and "Pass a note". At work, it could be something similar depending on the job. Clicking on the computer might give you, "Write a report". When the player is tired of the scenario, he can leave and the Sim continues his day unseen until it's time to go home. I guess there's less goals with that scenario, but I kind of like it.



Pssst: Office worker - "Get in fight with Boss/Coworker." "Propose a new marketing approach" "Sell a company" "leak stock info", "Gossip at the water cooler" "Flirt with cute co-worker" "Log onto FB and hope Boss doesn't notice" "Watch the clock" It's not all boring!

Addicted to The Sims since 2000.
Mad Poster
#4 Old 23rd Jul 2013 at 1:16 PM
Quote: Originally posted by 999rozes
Although I didn't mind the rabbit-holes, there were people who did.
Someone suggested shells where we would be able to see... this made made me think of Lionhead's The Movies where Scriptwriters or any other movie studio worker would have had set animations when placed in a specific lot.
ie:



Do you think the repetition of the walk in lot, do work, eat lunch, go home (or some other variance) animation would be more preferable than rabbit-holes?


The whole purpose of the rabbit holes is that you don't see what happens inside. I don't think shells will help with that. If they aren't going to make playable careers then I don't want to see any rabbit holes.
Lab Assistant
#5 Old 23rd Jul 2013 at 1:47 PM
the reason i dislike rabbitholes is not that i can't see while my sims are working or are at school - i don't care much for that stuff anyway. the reason i dislike them is they take away interactions that used to make the game fun, like going to the movies or restaurants. i want to see and control what they're doing on for example dates and really have fun with it.
shells or rabbitholes wouldn't make a difference in those cases.
Mad Poster
#6 Old 23rd Jul 2013 at 3:23 PM
the point of rabbit holes were to be able to send your sims to work in an open neighborhood so you don't
have to control them working or being at school.
Alchemist
#7 Old 24th Jul 2013 at 3:11 AM
I prefer repetitive animations over rabbitholes since I find them more visually appealing. We already have this in the Sims 2 Open for Business. If you have a restaurant the host/hostess at the podium will go through a loop that involves picking up the phone to take reservations when not seating customers. The chef has a set cooking animation when assigned to work in the kitchen and the servers polish glasses when not taking orders. I can see how this could be implemented in the Sims 4, only with the podium/stove/tables as career objects that sims are automatically assigned to when they get a job via newspaper/computer. Each career could have an object for each position (e.g. front desk for a receptionist job) with its respective animations. See spoiler for my ideas.


Some objects could appear in different buildings (e.g. Front Desk, Podium) but the animations and uniforms could be determined by the job and location to mix things up a little.
Scholar
#8 Old 24th Jul 2013 at 8:58 AM Last edited by 9b8ll : 24th Jul 2013 at 9:33 AM.
Sadly I'm a part of the I dislike rabbit holes group, I can explain. I understand that some simmers play with huge families I get that, but I play with Smaller families Sims maybe up to 5 maximum. One problem that I have with rabbit holes in general is that is entirely too much text to be reading and no visual action of your Sim only tabs. Second Problem is that you cannot even decorate them it would have been a blast to create and CAST the inner and outer rabbit hole buildings to make them unique to your own tastes. Instead I see same exact rabbit holes shell/buildings from the base game and EPs it feels very uncanny IMO. This is the reason why I'm very for grateful for Jynx's and Margret's rabbit hole rugs and floors. Finally I know that this is not everyone cup of tea but, I wish that I could just manage them and see my Sims and npcs inside as they work like the dinner spa book store,etc...

As I said in the previous threads about is that what I suggest instead of fully rabbit holes buildings, is to For EA to create a marker like seasons for example. Plus Have the ability to place it on an 2x2 wall room and set it to any kind of career in debug mode. This will save a lot of room space and more flexible creativity and maybe lower specs.

Another suggestion was that the rabbit holes should open and have a auto-pilot system so that simmers who have bigger families can go about their business concentrating on other Sims. And not to forget instead of have the Sim to concentrate just on boring paper work I think they should bring the career items and work like the ones in TSO where it has you and other Sims doing the various opportunities and fun tasks where it gets crazier as you advance to make money. Original_Sim's idea is a perfect example. All of this should optional of course and can ignore it at all costs.
Lab Assistant
#9 Old 24th Jul 2013 at 7:35 PM
Adding to what 9b8ll said:

My hope* would be for them to try and combine Rabbit Holes with what Open For Business and Ambitions offered us. For example, create an actual venue like a restaurant where sims can interact like they did with OFB or the new "Business As Usual Bistro", but also allow for the placement of specific objects that would grant the ability for the game to control that sim for a few hours as if they had a full-time RH job. In other words, RHs would be reduced to small objects that could otherwise be placed on a fully accessible commercial lot.

For example, imagine a large fitness studio where sims could interact much like they do now in a standard in-game gym. A custom cash register could be created that would allow players to click on and choose "apply for part-time job", where their sim would stand for a few hours each day while serving other sims -- acting as a receptionist at your local gym or community center, for example (except it would pay an hourly wage and have scheduled hours). A custom "business door" could be used to cordon off part of the lot that would act to conceal offices or a workout rooms, where a player could click on and choose "apply for full-time job" (eg: gym manager, personal trainer) and disappear behind much like they do now with full-sized RHs.

Otherwise, I agree with what others are saying with regards to the theory that RHs exist to give the player a break from all the micromanaging that would otherwise be involved in controlling a large household throughout an entire "world". Back with S2, we only had to micromanage sims on a single lot at a time, while sims off-lot were in suspended animation. With S3's open world, you are micromanaging on a neighbourhood scale, and all sims are active at all times, whether you are controlling them or not.

I can't see the concept of RHs dissappearing with S4, but hopefully they might be able to implement it better with (cough) Glass Box and agents. But I swear, after the SimCity fiasco (I mean seriously, that game hasn't even been out five months, has been patched over a dozen times, and still doesn't work as advertised), I will wait a few months before considering picking up Sims 4.


* I said "hope" as that is all we can do at this point. Video games take years to develop, and Sims 4 is almost certainly far too along to make any major changes at this point.

"All right, now listen. We've got a blind date with destiny, and it looks like she's ordered the lobster."
Forum Resident
#10 Old 24th Jul 2013 at 7:53 PM
I hate both of them.
I want to build my own buildings and customize everything.
No premade shells or rabbit holles that don't fit my neighborhood or my style.
Just like The Sims & The Sims 2.

Check my tumblr:
http://eliasctifler.tumblr.com/
:)
Theorist
#11 Old 24th Jul 2013 at 9:00 PM
I don't like rabbit holes, and I don't see any purpose for them. In University, they already gave us non-rabbit hole classes, so I know it's possible to do. Yes, they can be repetitive and boring, but is it more boring than clicking on a sim and seeing... nothing? I personally don't think so. And if all jobs were no longer rabbit holes, that doesn't mean you have to sit and stare at your sim be boring and repetitive. I often ignore my sim in those non-rabbit hole classes. So you could choose to sit and stare at them if you wish, and better yet would be if they gave us a few cute manual interactions for each job or school which would improve or reduce performance. Or if you find the job/class boring, you could zoom out and ignore that sim.

Resident wet blanket.
Test Subject
#12 Old 9th Aug 2013 at 12:22 PM
Quote: Originally posted by ButchSims
when you are playing multiple sims in a household, it can be a relief to send someone off for a few hours, allowing you to focus on your other sims for awhile, without worrying about if Dad is going to pee his pants while you watch Mom jumping on the Trampoline.



sounds like the problem is someone took free will off...

sims automatically route themselves to work in the morning, they should have a automatic blueprint of what to que when they get there, no?

it amuses me that people think ea maxis developers are actually paying attention to these forums and give a fraction of a turd about our complaints

majority of those of which wont consider getting it regardless
Test Subject
#13 Old 9th Aug 2013 at 12:24 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Elias943
I hate both of them.
I want to build my own buildings and customize everything.
No premade shells or rabbit holles that don't fit my neighborhood or my style.
Just like The Sims & The Sims 2.



now that you mention it, id also want chocolate pudding to come out of water fountains.

it amuses me that people think ea maxis developers are actually paying attention to these forums and give a fraction of a turd about our complaints

majority of those of which wont consider getting it regardless
Forum Resident
#14 Old 9th Aug 2013 at 2:03 PM
Quote: Originally posted by boobzilla
now that you mention it, id also want chocolate pudding to come out of water fountains.

Hahaha funny one.

Check my tumblr:
http://eliasctifler.tumblr.com/
:)
Lab Assistant
#15 Old 9th Aug 2013 at 4:59 PM
I would prefer jobs to be TS2 style, out of sight, no lot. They're just at work with no lot. If they did have job lots, I think it would be nice to have it a rabbit hole (customizable) and if you wanted to follow them through their work life, just have an option to enter the rabbit hole, and there would be a loading screen. I think that would be a nice thing to do for those who don't want the work cluttering up their game too much. And since loading wouldn't take too long since it's just 1 lot. I think that would be a good compromise that even EA is capable of doing.

Still is the water green and thick,
He'll drag you under with his stick,
See flaxen gold floats there through the mist,
He killed someone's daughter with his wick,
An arm with grey skin bobs slowly in the pit.
And all the maladies of the world burst forth from Pandora's cooch
#16 Old 9th Aug 2013 at 6:34 PM
Quote: Originally posted by boobzilla
sounds like the problem is someone took free will off...

sims automatically route themselves to work in the morning, they should have a automatic blueprint of what to que when they get there, no?
Free will IS off, but it isn't a "problem". I only used that as a humorous example. my point was, if you have two sims who are on opposite sides of the map, switching back and forth between the two can get annoying. Also, that if you have multiple sims in a household, particularly a large family, it can be a relief to send them off to a rabbithole for a few hours, allowing you to focus more on other family members.
Alchemist
#17 Old 9th Aug 2013 at 7:47 PM
Another alternative would be to have all lots remain closed until the player chooses to visit them.

Ideally, the only open lot would be the one currently visible on the screen (i.e. your active household's residence if they're at home). The surrounding lots would serve to create a scenic view without hogging your computer's resources. This can also appease players who are opposed to the idea of "babysitting" their sims at work. If they scroll over to the workplace lot, it'll remain closed until they click "Visit Lot" or something like that.
Test Subject
#18 Old 9th Aug 2013 at 7:52 PM
I'm sure whatever EA does will be great i mean we are all still playing the Sims right? We should take it easy remember not everyone has a 3,000 dollar computer with the best graphics card. Some computers can only handle so much.
Mad Poster
#19 Old 9th Aug 2013 at 7:55 PM
I wouldn't mind being able to control the sims, it would be a great help for machinima and I've played a few other older games with stuff like that. A lot of Japanese role-play games start out with a sort of scripted school scene that you can control. On the other hand, I'd like to only be able to control them if I wanted to - maybe get a dialogue to follow your sims to work/school/etc.

For hospitals, I've had this really interesting idea:

It would take place mostly in one accident/emergency room of a clinic, where sims would go and sit in beds with timers - if this timer (which is long or short depending on the injuries) runs out, that sim goes into a minute-long crisis mode where they MUST be taken care of or else they will leave (or in some cases, if they can't leave, they die) and the reputation for the clinic goes down. You can click on each sim and go to their bed and your sim can pick a course of action and stuff. Something interactive. You can help deliver babies, repair broken arms, cure ailments, etc!

I really would like to see wheelchairs/crutches in use here, as well.


Angie/DS | Baby Sterling - 24/2/2014
This account is mostly used by my sons to download CC now, if you see me active, it's probably just them!
Mad Poster
#20 Old 9th Aug 2013 at 8:55 PM
If they are going to make playable hospitals I think it would be nice if they developed according to the doctors' skills. This way you can start with a general physician that can only give shots, some basic treatments for cold, flu, food poisoning, and as his skills increase then maybe you could offer other treatments as well such as deliver babies, plastic surgery, psychiatric treatment, accupuncture. These new skills should unlock career rewards that allow you to perform the new activities, hospital bed for delivery, surgery table for surgery, couch or the hypno wheel for psychiatric treatments, etc.
Alchemist
#21 Old 10th Aug 2013 at 6:26 AM
Quote: Originally posted by Elias943
I hate both of them.
I want to build my own buildings and customize everything.
No premade shells or rabbit holles that don't fit my neighborhood or my style.
Just like The Sims & The Sims 2.

What do you mean like The Sims & The Sims 2? Sims clearly don't work in "your own customized building" in both games. They work at nowhere! Imagine if your Sims in The Sims 3 get out of the town just to work. I'd rather have rabbit holes for that!

And shell is semi-customizable -- the interior side. If you have to build your own office building from scratch for example, it will only go as good as a block building with A LOT of stories. And no, I don't want to decorate every single story of the building when my Sim only needs one office... in his own cubicle.

Just call me Nikel
Forum Resident
#22 Old 10th Aug 2013 at 12:32 PM
Quote: Originally posted by nikel23
What do you mean like The Sims & The Sims 2? Sims clearly don't work in "your own customized building" in both games. They work at nowhere! Imagine if your Sims in The Sims 3 get out of the town just to work. I'd rather have rabbit holes for that!

And shell is semi-customizable -- the interior side. If you have to build your own office building from scratch for example, it will only go as good as a block building with A LOT of stories. And no, I don't want to decorate every single story of the building when my Sim only needs one office... in his own cubicle.

I don't really care for the work locations.They can have rabbit hols or shells for those..
But for community lots I think they should be ALL open and customizable.

Check my tumblr:
http://eliasctifler.tumblr.com/
:)
Alchemist
#23 Old 10th Aug 2013 at 2:23 PM
Quote: Originally posted by Elias943
I don't really care for the work locations.They can have rabbit hols or shells for those..
But for community lots I think they should be ALL open and customizable.

That's what's currently happening in The Sims 3. All community lots are open and customizable, except workplaces.

Just call me Nikel
And all the maladies of the world burst forth from Pandora's cooch
#24 Old 10th Aug 2013 at 6:05 PM
Quote: Originally posted by DigitalSympathies



I really would like to see wheelchairs/crutches in use here, as well.
I cann see where you're going with that, and while I am not opposed to the idea in principle, I just have visions in my head of the Generations Stroller. Wheelchair bound people have to go up a hill? No problem, get up and walk! Then back to the chair you go >_<
Lab Assistant
#25 Old 16th Aug 2013 at 1:50 PM
When we discuss rabbit-holes, we really need to keep rabbitholes for work and school separate from rabbitholes for restaurants and shops. In my opinion the rabbitholes for work are actually *necessary*. Not only because they provide a few hours of relief, some time when you don't have to tend to those particular sims, but for other reasons as well.

If you're expected to continue to control your sims even while they're at work/in school, it will introduce too much micro-management into the game, and as a result there's a risk in the long run that the sims' work performance will suffer. And even if the rabbitholes are just exchanged for shells, it would mean a lot of EA/Maxis effort wasted on unnecessary animations, as they would have to produce animations for every single career. And not just animations either, but perhaps some new actions/events as unexpected domino effects. Creating animations for the office and the city hall might not require that much extra effort (not that big a variety of animations), but take for instance the criminal career. What do you expect that your criminal sims do during the day? Do they just sit around a table and make evil plans all the time, or do they actually carry out bank robberies, thefts and burglaries? Where in the game do these take place, and how would it affect other sims in the game? Regardless of whether you're supposed to control your sims or not, all those animations/actions would have to be added to the game, and thereby take time and effort away from other improvements EA/Maxis could do to the game.

And think about all the custom careers too. Would we now expect the modders to add animated actions to their careers as well, or can we accept that they would still make use of rabbitholes?

I see too many problems with playable rabbitholes for work locations. Restaurants and shops and the like should preferably be open, though.
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