I was going to mention the opening of a banana, but personally I usually do the tab opening, since the other end tend to be a bit stickier. Not that I eat a lot of bananas that way, as I most often just use a knife to open them...

This is very important. To me, the scientists' approach seems the one that's more compatible with the notion that human beings are fallible, so that any statements we make about God's Creation should be supported by careful examination of that Creation itself, respectfully of the information it actually contains, according to our best abilities to discover it. I would trust that approach better than one that argues that we know it all already -- given what we know of human knowledge and human pride.

Over the years I've been noticing something interesting: within the muslim/christian communities there's no consensus on the question ''when are you a (good) muslim/christian?'' One person thinks believing a their god and prophet (Mohammed/Jesus Christ) is enough, mostly accepting other/non believers. I know a muslim who's view is that first one, when he at the same time uses alcohol, softdrugs and smokes, something very delicate in his culture. While at the same time another fellow believer has a much more and conservative and sober list , and only accepting the existence of fellow believers, seeing other as lesser people.

Seems a perfect example that's just purely personal interpretation by these specific persons.

No one has the exact same belief. You can group people into the smaller individual groupings or communities within christianity, islam, buddhism and so on - but individual people in even the smallest groups will always have a slightly different viewpoint, and different reasons for believing. They might not even believe in the exact same god, because they have different views of that god, and interpret their texts or their emotions around their religion differently. Not even atheists or agnostics will have the same non-belief of religion - even if they tend to agree on most viewpoints.

What is it with the bananas? Besides, where would all the water have COME from (and don't tell me it came from the rain, or I'll have to run away screaming).

I've been wondering the water thing, too. There isn't enough water on the entire planet to flood the entire planet - not even if it rained for 40 days and 40 nights (I think we had a particularly rainy autumn one year, where I live, raining for at least 40 days and nearly non-stop, and there was no flood what so ever that I could see).

Whoever wrote that part of the bible clearly didn't know how the rain cycle works. Rain don't just poof-appear, even if it may seem so at times. The sun vapourizes water from seas and other wet places, which goes up into the sky, forms clouds and comes down as rain/snow/hail/slush depending on the temperature. It's not like you can just make a lot of it appear from the sky if it wasn't already somewhere on Earth. A local flood could have happed, but not world-wide, and not enough to cover every single tree in a distance a bird can fly. Unless you're in a very big desert... Even melting the snow caps is only going to raise the water with a few meters (though it's enough to drown the Netherlands).

Banana video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2z-OLG0KyR4
("non-slip surface" - he sounds like he's selling a product, which I'm assuming is what he's actually trying to do)

No of course they didn't - it was written in the Iron Age.

I've seen a theory that the story of Noah's Flood might be drawn from the flooding of the Black Sea, in which case there could have been a cataclysmic flood... for the people living in that one area only. Still, they would see it as global, since the concept of the world at that point would have extended little further than the horizon in many cases, so the notion of a global flood may have a slight basis in actual history... and then it got ballooned up into a huge fairy tale so that people could work it into their morality stories.

Zara: the theory of a local flood is one a lot of people have posited, & I think it makes a lot of sense, especially since the flood story is found in many cultures. And people ALWAYS seem to turn disasters into morality stories in their childish attempt to understand things.

They've looked for evidence of a flood in the close-by areas, and I don't think they've found any so far. I do agree that the most likely explanation is that the bible has borrowed myths and legends from other religions and beliefs from even earlier times.

As for not knowing about rain cycles or how the nature works - if the text is supposedly meant to be words from a divine being, these flaws show just how faulty these divine beings are, when they don't even know how the nature they made actually works. The obvious flaws in the bible, based on how people back then saw things, should be one big screaming clue that the bible isn't divine and was written by humans, with their limited knowledge of the world.

Of course, gods work in mysterious ways and all that - but if I was a god and had handed some important information down to the people I created, the first thing I'd do is to make sure they got at least some things right when writing it down.

You know what I would do if I were a god and had the power of omniscience?

I would design my holy language so that as language evolves, it would reveal more of the world to them.

For instance, at the Bronze Age, something could read "do not eat shellfish unless it's properly cooked". A few thousand years later, language will have changed so that reading it in the vernacular will reveal "the reason you cannot eat shellfish is because it has bacteria. If you use your newfangled freezer in this way, you can kill the germs and eat it raw. Also, it causes allergies. If someone's throat starts swelling, give them this plant you recently discovered."

And I could put blueprints in for all kinds of machines, like a 90% efficient solar panels. That would pretty much prove my existence so I wouldn't play any silly games to test people's faith.

I actually think this is the case, like the date of christmas is just stolen from a Germanic winter night festival around 2000 years ago, while Jesus must have been born around August or September. The stories and songs related to his birth link to better weather conditions than which is normal for mid winter, even in Israel/Palestine. Or the Ten Commandments, (partly) loaned from rules from other people and civilizations.

OhmygodIhatethisargumentsomuchIcan'tevenusepropergrammar. (whew) I'm glad you bring that up though... Seriously- this argument is such a copout when it comes to the debate- it really boils down to just saying "Well, I can't prove it or back it up in any way whatsoever, but I KNOW I'M RIGHT, DAMMIT!!" If people are actually going to get into a debate, I wish they'd realize just how weak a point this is to try to hide behind.

But you DO know I'm always right, don't you?

I just wanted to say something before this thread is locked... Hi!

I would just like to say that the creationists you're talking about are wrong. The banana is not the perfect fruit, the strawberry is, especially when it's covered in chocolate.


I would also like to say that Christians believe in God and that the Bible it His word, because we have faith in Him. You don't understand (most likely never will) because you don't have it. Just like I will never understand how people can look up to their father, say he's their hero, and want to be like him. This is because my father isn't really someone I think should be looked up too.

I also don't understand how anyone could not like chocolate. I LOVE it, and think it's INSANE if you don't like it.


The closest example I can think of to describe my faith in God:

Have you ever had someone (maybe a parent or grandparent) that you loved, respected, and looked up to so much that you believed everything they said, thought they could do anything, and would always have an answer for you? For example, I loved my Paw Paw more than anyone or anything. When I was little, he told me that he used to be a little girl, but he ate too much beans and cornbread, and that turned him into a boy. I believed him. I had endless faith in him, that he could do anything and would always know the answer to any question I had. My reason for feeling/thinking this way: he was Paw Paw.

There have been several things that have happened around me to make me feel this way about God. They provided me with all the proof I needed/wanted.



P.S.- I'm not trying to be hateful, judgmental, or anything when I said people who don't believe in God don't understand and never will. I said that because it's true. I don't look down on anyone who's and Atheist, or think they're stupid, or anything. Although, I will admit that I respect those who tried to read the Bible, but couldn't make sense of it more than those who just say automatically jump on a band wagon and say it's wrong instead of finding out for themselves.

Actually, I was raised in a Christian faith. That is, I went to Sunday school, the local chapel, occasionally church. I was Christened as a baby, and was confirmed at the age of 15 (not sure if that's a thing in other parts of the world, but it is here). My family has various Christian beliefs, ranging from not particularly religious to very religious. Thankfully, my parents were in the not particularly religous bunch. I've never been forced to believe anything, and as I grew up I was allowed, mostly by nobody saying anything else, to make up my own mind. I slowly went from somewhat religious in my early childhood, to vaguely spiritual in my early teens, to agnostic in my late teens, to atheist now.

All through my childhood, hearing the stories about Jesus and God and whatnots, I think my brain sorted out the 'magic', and just took in whatever could be learned from the stories. I took my time trying to figure out what and why I believed, and slowly started using my own reasoning, instead of taking everything I heard on blind faith. I was twelve when I finally figured out Sunday School was not my thing. For a few years I'd felt uncomfortable when singing about god or jesus, and had the same feeling when reading, as if this wasn't my kind of literature. Instead of feeling happy and spiritual, I felt bad because I didn't believe it.

I have never had any of the spiritual 'woo-moments'. Sure, I can enjoy things and sometimes get that amazing feeling it is to be a part of a group or be a part of the world. I can truly enjoy nature, and feel close to it. Unlike religious people, I don't put a name to it. I don't credit these moments to some being I don't believe in. I know fully well that these things are nerve signals and hormones playing around in my body, making me happy or giddy or even awestruck. And I'm okay with that, because it's every bit as amazing, and perhaps even more, to know my body is capable of doing this. I also find some religious music beautiful, but I often put different meanings than the religious ones into the songs.

The image of God started unraveling for me quite early. I lost my brother when I was barely out of diapers, and as a child's mind goes, I started wondering about things -more and more as I grew up. How could God kill a child? How could he kill someone I loved with all of my heart? Was it just some kind of test, or was it outright cruelty? How could he love me, and do something so bad to me and my family? It didn't get better with time, and as I lost more and more of loved family members, and had some trouble at school with bullying and all, I eventually realized that bad things happen to good people, and there's no supreme judge in the sky doing it. That was the only solution I could come up with, save for that supreme being being one hundred percent evil. And if that was the case, I wouldn't want to worship this being anyway. Of course, the idea of a heaven or paradise might have softened these thoughts for a while. I wasn't very fond of the idea of a god, but I liked angels for quite a while. I find it a nice image. I don't actually believe they exist, though - I'd probably have to experience it to be able to believe they exist.

I can understand that people can have faith in something supernatural, and feel spiritual in some way. I did for quite a while, but then I grew up. It took me some time to shake off the belief of angels. I still like them as figurines, and I sometimes like to use them symbolically in stories or when thinking about dead loved ones, but I don't actually believe in them. I respect people's beliefs, and as long as they keep their faith mostly to themselves, I don't mind them doing so. But the moment the faith takes over and makes them do something bad to other people (because that happens all too often), I feel I have an obligation to say something. I'm living in the same world as these people, and I don't want them to control my life. Creationists (taking literally the myths in their religious text of choice) and extremists (anything from suicide bombers to closed religious societies) are the worst sort. If people in today's society refuse to accept scientific explanations, or can't accept the fact that people believe something different than they do - then I'm sorry, but these people don't deserve my respect in that area. They can believe whatever they want to believe for all I care, as long as they don't ruin someone else's life by spreading their false science or their hate.

As for looking up to someone, I've had several such people. My grandmother was one of them. I learned a lot from her, and under the calm and patient way some people seem to be born with, she let me figure out things on my own, like when playing games or cooking. She had faith in God, and was even my godmother, but never once tried to force her beliefs onto me. I can't even remember a single instance where she told me how and what and why I should believe in her religion. Instead, she respected me as a human being, as a child, and as an equal. She cared about me in a loving way, and earned my respect that way. And I loved her with all of my heart. So I do understand how it is to have someone like that in my life. The difference is that I prefer those people to be real people I can see and hear. To me, having something invisible and vague 'out there' does not give me the same sense of being loved.

Bottom line is, I have never felt the 'love of God' or 'love for Jesus' in my life. I think my brain is wired a little bit too scientifically to take things on blind faith. I'm naturally curious, which didn't exactly help. I love science, and know that the few unanswered things we don't know will probably be answered sometime - but unlike most religious people, I have patience. I don't need some imaginary and supernatural explanation for things I don't understand. My brain isn't satisfied with that, and always needs to make up why and how questions, and the supernatural explanations tend to seem ridiculous after I'm done with them. I'm perfectly happy with not knowing, because that means there's still something to figure out.

The best you can ever hope to get when you have a faith is just that. There is no proof to be found - no real proof, anyway. If there was, we'd already know there were angels or gods among us - and there's only subjective descriptions so far, mostly by people who already had faith or was inclined to take things on faith even if they weren't particularly religious. "Proof" and "faith" are incompatible words in most senses. If you have proof of something, then you don't need to take it on faith. If you have faith in something, then you're believing it without any proof. You can have subjective proof, or a vague sense of proof inside a religious community, but there's no objective proof (as of yet) you can lay in front of a hard-core non-believer or scientist and make them start believing. Subjective proof can be anything, from experiences to visions to a vague sense of belonging and feeling the spiritual whatsits - but they're usually very personal, and when telling others about it, they can't do anything else than maybe believe you when you say that you had this experience.

I feel the exact same way. I really don't understand how anyone could use faith to do bad things and/or look down on others.

There is a difference in saying what you believe out loud and trying to force it on others. I am not ashamed of my beliefs or to say them aloud, I pray to myself in public when I want, but I would NEVER try to force them on someone else. I feel like it would be hypocritical of me to do so, because like you, I don't want someone else forcing their beliefs/lifestyle on me. Faith is something that shouldn't be forced, because you can't make someone believe. If it's not in their heart, it's just not, and you can't force it in.



P.S.- Sorry if this next paragraph is worded badly.
It was interesting to read/learn about why you're and Atheist. I have often wondered that about people and actually wanted to ask about it here in the MTS forums, but I knew that it would turn ugly fast if I did with others (I do not mean all others/everyone) trying to twist what I was saying into something it wasn't. So thank you for that post. I love learning about different cultures/lifestyles. I couldn't tell you how many times I've fallen into a wikihole because of it.

I didn't go into detail about the things that happened around me that provided me with proof that God exists because it's a long story and one you won't understand unless you truly know the situation.

I find people's stories interesting, too. There are no two identical stories. I don't know if you've ever stumbled upon "the atheist experience" at Youtube, but one of the show members, Matt Dillahunty, has a very interesting story on why he became an atheist, and he was even studying to become a minister. He often mentions it on the show, and he's also explained it in lengthy terms in some of his longer talks. Julia Sweeney also has one here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTvx_QA6gIc (it's funny and entertaining, and I recommend it even if you're not an atheist or don't plan to become one).

There are lots of stories on Youtube if you just look for them.

I admit like to have a bit of fun with things, and religion in particular. I love a lot of the 'atheist humor' that's out there, and I like to watch videos of the story behind atheism or people's stories on why they believe, and why and what they find funny. I see it as a way to de-weaponize the more hardcore religions. I also think it's important to poke and prod the hardcore creationists, so that the generation after them can actually learn some proper science instead of the stupid non-science they want to teach (people riding dinosaurs, bananas being made for humans, 'I ain't no monkey!' and so on).

As for personal beliefs personal experiences, and feeling spiritual, or thinking that a god made the universe (not Adam and Eve style, but more in the 'god made the Big Bang happen' style) - that's up to each individual person, and I try my best to not poke where it hurts too much when it comes to this kind of faith, because after all, we're not entirely sure - even if science is getting reeeeally close. 'Spiritual experiences' (if one like to call it that) is part of being a human being, and has been so from very early times, probably as a survival mechanism - but the difference is that I and other non-believers with me see it as a brain phenomenon rather than a godly phenomenon.

Of course, some people will get offended at the smallest thing, but if they get offended for the smallest thing, that's their problem. Offending the religion in itself, and any ( most of the time ridiculous) ideas it holds on to is one thing, but saying a person is stupid or turning things to a very personal level goes too far. Basically, as long as the humor doesn't turn into a personal attack, I'm usually okay with most of it. I've often found that the people who take offense are the people who are most scared of their religion being debunked, or people who are used to taking things on blind faith. If people have a relatively calm and mostly sensible relation to their beliefs, they usually don't get offended at all. But sometimes it can be a bit hard to know where the line goes.

Generally, it helps if you don't consider any form of disagreement to be "twisting words". You know, like the reason you ignored me and GabyBee - we disagreed with you and you accused us of that even though we weren't. Or whatever happened when you asked for feedback on that house you created.


Though I am curious what this thread looks like to Leo. Since she ignored me and I'm a major participant, does this mean that she only sees long spiels of Sims2Christain talking to himself?

I wouldn't describe myself as atheist. I would say I am not religious.

Hey, another atheist here and proud, and yep I'm christened and confirmed and all that jazz, and live amongst family and friends who are Christians. They kinda get confused over me, they keep saying, "she's good and kind" so she must believe in God thingy. Nope, not at all, don't, not no more. Loved me church, me bible, the songs and friendship and all that, but stopped when I was 12. Went church every week (my choice) read me bible every day (my choice), was even in the choir (my choice).

How I lost me faith... think it was the whistling that started it... uncle said "a whistling woman is an abomination to the lord and will call up the devil". Being a logical person, I tried so hard, even got a book on witchcraft and drew a pentagon and tried to whistle the devil up so I could talk to him. He didn't come, (or it didn't come, or whatever the thing calls itself). Guess that made me wanna try with God and calling him up as well. Did just like the book said, turn the other cheek, yep, crap advice, I got beaten up and laughed at.... so I checked out me bible looking for some sense in it, and the more I examined, the more nonsense (to my eyes got revealed)

Until we hit pascal's wager (and wence comes evil) and me and religion, gods, faith and hopping had to part company. Too much illogical things for me to feel comfortable with. But sure had fun ;learning, we invited every single religious person around for dinner weekly. Some woman in a wheelchair told me god had blessed her. Mum said I was rude when I said show me gods miracle of "rise and walk again". The morman's with the "you got a ton of chances to be saved again", was just to easy. All nice people, and happy in their faith and so I'm happy for them, but I can't believe in illogical things.

How do atheist and christians live together, well me and me friends live happily. I encourage them to read the bible, go to church and only do and say nice things. And they only have to remove the word god from their language and replace it with something like universe so it makes sense to me. (universe has no meaning or pre-determined pattern) And no quoting and lecturing from the bible, I done read it, and can use it to attack weapon much better than them.

Oh, and when I buried mum recently, preacher was fantastic, he knew mum was christian and I am atheist, so he did a fantastic service that suited everybody. He did less god and more universe for me, and his message was all about love for everybody. Mum would have loved it.

I'm assuming by hardcore creationists, you mean Duggar-esque wackos.


I was reading the second page of this thread on my tablet and didn't notice that I wasn't sighned in until I got to higbug's post. Anway, I would like to say that I didn't put her, and others on my ignore list because they,disagreed with me. I put them on ignore because of their hypocrisy in thinking they should have the right to dictate part of my (and other's) !ives by saying /thinking that prayer should not be allowed in public, regardless if it's being kept to oneself. Whether they realize or not, prayer is part of my, and others) life. Them saying it should not be allowed in public is them trying to force part of their lifestyle/beliefs on others. I don't think they will ever truly understand this because they don't have any faith in God or truly understand what it is llike.

In high school I have a devoutly religious friend who prayed silently to himself before eating lunch. Saying he shouldn't be allowed to do so is like saying he shouldn't have been allowed to eat in public/at school.

I remember putting someone else ,don't remember who, because they were being hateful. Also, I don't remember putting anyone on ignore in the house thread.

EDIT: I actually remember putting several people on ignore in the thread I started asking Atheists how they do certain things. I put them on there for being hateful and judgmental. I just don't remember the names and don't care enough to go back and find out. I am also fully aware that parts of this post may sound/seem hateful, but there was really no nice way to say it. Although, I wasn't trying to be so when I said hugbug and company won't understand having faith and prayer, I said it because it's true. I meant no offense when I said that.

When I made the post telling that I put hugbug on ignore. I do feel like she was twisting what I was saying. I wanted to say in that post how stupid it is to not allow something (that is not a crime) in public because it might make someone uncomfortable, then make a list of things that might make other people uncomfortable. Therefore, they shouldn't be allowed in public if we're following the thought that prayer shouldn't be allowed in public because it might make someone uncomfortable. I didn't do so because I thought it would just be deleted because that last time that I said how stupid a post was, it got deleted.

P.S.- Diovan, what is an example of your friends saying universe in order to make sense to you?

What if we turn it upside down? How can you understand how people can live without a faith in a divine being, if you've never had anything else than that faith?

What you might not realize is that lot of atheists/naturalists/agnostics (or whatever else they choose to call themselves) have had some form of faith in the divine earlier in their life, either through upbringing or through personal choice. Their reasons for turning to non-belief in the divine are as varied as for people of faith. I've heard lots of people claiming 'oh, but something horrible must have happened that made you lose your faith!' - but that's just one out of thousands of different reasons. Some people just grow out of their faith, and others are brought up in families where faith in the divine isn't an issue. Some grow up to find their religion isn't right for them, and try out different beliefs until they settle on non-belief.

For me it was a gradual process, and even if I had some bad experiences, I had good experiences with religion as well. I just never felt strongly in favor for it. I never believed in Santa, and discovered quite early that mom was the toothfairy, and I didn't have imaginary friends either, so quite early on I started feeling the singing and praying, and in particular the wording of the texts, was quite silly and weird. For the most part I was the 'God in the gaps' kind of believer, if I ever believed in anything divine. As I grew older and my interest in science grew (and when I realized there was an alternative to believing), it just felt a lot more natural for me to not believe in the divine. I prefer getting proper explanations to things, instead of 'poof, appear!' or 'god did it!'. I think that might be one of the reasons I've always loved magic, and the reason why so many of the best magicians and illusionists are atheists. We're not particularly awed by the 'magic' of the trick itself, but rather it's the 'how did they do that?' question that triggers the scientific-minded parts of our brains.

There also seems to be a widespread assumption among religious people that disagreeing on religious beliefs, and even just being an atheist, automatically means they're being hateful. That's usually not the case. But in my experience, religious people are very often so close-minded that no matter what you say to them, no matter what and how and why you scream and shout in their direction, they will appear to not listen at all, even if all your arguments are sensible and backed up by truth and reason. And if this comes off as hateful, well - that's technically not our problem.

What concerns me the most, is that a lot of believers will believe anything they're told without even bothering to think critically and examine the proof, if there is any at all. Blind faith can be harmful, because it makes a person narrow-minded, hateful, and more likely to hurt people with their beliefs. Of course, not all believers are narrow-minded, but those who are, are often those who speaks up the loudest. They don't realize that they're ruining other people's right to live their lives - such as when it comes to gay marriage, or teaching evolution and intelligent design as equals in schools (intelligent design is nothing more than a belief, while evolution is an established scientific theory).

I don't have a problem with people praying silently to themselves, or people going to church because they get a good feeling, or any of the (seemingly, anyway) positive things surrounding faith. As long as they don't bother me with their faith, I don't see much reason to bother them with my unbelief. Go ahead and believe, if that's what makes you feel good about yourself. But don't let your belief come in the way of other people's lives. Arguing and discussing beliefs is in itself not dangerous - as long as you're free to leave the discussion when you start feeling uncomfortable, and as long as people don't start taking things personally ("you don't believe what I'm saying, so I sincerely hope you end up in eternal hell!!!!!!!!", or "You're so incredibly stupid because you don't believe in evolution!!!!" are examples of discussions gone bad on a personal level).

I don't mind arguing my points if anyone seemingly wants to listen, but I don't like it much when people for some reason see it as a strange phenomenon why I don't believe in a god. I feel it's much the same as when people ask me "why don't you drink alcohol?"
Why? Because alcohol messes with your head, and can potentially make you do stupid or weird things for no good reason. It's perfectly reasonable to choose not drink alcohol. But I still feel I'm on the defense Every.Single.Effing.Time.

I also feel it's perfectly reasonable to not believe in some imaginary divine being I can't see, feel or hear.
Why? Because religion messes with your head, and can potentially make you do stupid or weird things for no good reason. It's perfectly reasonable to (as an adult) not believe in Santa, fairies, unicorns, or celestial teapots, or even the flying spaghetti monster, just as it's perfectly reasonable to not keep the imaginary friends you were introduced to as a child.

Why should it matter to religious people what I believe, anyway? Whether or not I drink alcohol doesn't affect other people's drinking habits, just as my disbelief in the divine or mystical doesn't affect their belief in a god. If they are as hardy believers as they think they are, their beliefs shouldn't be shaken by my words. If they are offended, I usually take it as a sign that their faith is already on unsteady ground. Perhaps they just need to get that little push to be able to see reason. The people who get angry the easiest are often those who are the least certain of what they actualy believe. They often won't have any good arguments besides quoting bible verses (and no, that still does not work on a scientific-minded atheist) or quoting some babble most atheists have heard about a hundred times before (Young-Earth creationists in particular).

For most people, the main reason a person who identifies as a Christian is Christian, is because they were brought up in a Christian belief and environment. It's the same for Islam, Buddhism, and pretty much all other belief systems out there. You identify as part of that belief because your parents did, and their parents before them. Of course there are exceptions, but as a general rule of thumb it's true. As a newborn baby you have no religion, but you're hardwired to believe whatever your caregivers find it handy to tell you during the first years of your life, and most people just happen to stick to it. You're not born a christian or a jew or a buddhist. You become one.

Faith and reason are on a colliding course, and they'll probably always be. People can keep to their faith if they want to, but I prefer reasoning, logic and science, and I like knowing the truth of things. I can see the world as an imperfect but beautiful wonder, and marvel at how we humans came to be without being satisfied with some half-arsed fictional story dragged up from a hat by some creative writers living some 2000-ish years ago. And I'm perfectly happy with that.

I am on my tablet again, so I apologize is this is unorganized or has grammatical errors. I'm still not used to typing on this tablet.

You're right, I don't understand a lack of faith. However, I would never try force my faith or any part of my lifestyle on others. Faith is NOT something that can be forced.

I don't think people who disagree about the existence of God are being hateful by disagreeing. You clearly disagree with me on this subject, but I don't think you're being hateful at all. You're posts have actually been very interesting. Why I put hugbug and others from the thread I previously mentioned was said in my last post.

It doesn't matter to me what you believe, as long as you don't force it on me. Which you haven't.



I agree completely with the paragraph where you said you don't have a problem with prayer in public if it's kept to ones self.

I don't think you're a strange phenomenon for not believing in God. I'm sorry if I have made you feel this way or like you have to be on the defense.

I don't drink alcohol either, can't stand the taste. I have one sip of beer in my life and that was one sip too many.

I do know what you mean by sometimes feeling like you're on the defense. I have been in situations (not about faith) where I felt like that. I finally just had to be rude/hateful and tell the people who made me feel like that off. The same situation has happened a lot more than once.

I agree with the paragraph that says you're not born a Christian, become one. I was raised in my faith, but then I found out what I truly believed by myself. When I have kids, I will teach them what I believe, but when they're old enough I want them to decide for themselves. I will support them in whatever decision they make.